Why is it taking so long to extend Chabot?

[JD1]

Traded Zibanejad before his big money deal, took Hoffman and Ceci through arbitration process and lowballed Stone and Dzingel for their abitration asks?

So what would you have done?

Zibanejad, Hoffman and Ceci were all polarizing players. Would you have just signed them to top dollar deals regardless of concerns?

There were commitment to the game itself issues with Mika

Hoffman was deemed a soft one way guy

Ceci is hated here on this board

It's kind of rich looking back on either of these 3 and crapping on the team for their handling of the player. You wantvtocrao on them for taking Ceci to arbitration? Christ had they signed him to a 5 by 5 type deal they have broken the internet given the guys trying to post here.

I don't remember the arbitration specifics on Stone and Dzingle. With Dzingle in particular there was a lot to criticize and his recent foray into the land of UFAs seems to support that

 

[Micklebot]

So what would you have done?

Zibanejad, Hoffman and Ceci were all polarizing players. Would you have just signed them to top dollar deals regardless of concerns?

There were commitment to the game itself issues with Mika

Hoffman was deemed a soft one way guy

Ceci is hated here on this board

It's kind of rich looking back on either of these 3 and crapping on the team for their handling of the player. You wantvtocrao on them for taking Ceci to arbitration? Christ had they signed him to a 5 by 5 type deal they have broken the internet given the guys trying to post here.

I don't remember the arbitration specifics on Stone and Dzingle. With Dzingle in particular there was a lot to criticize and his recent foray into the land of UFAs seems to support that

Well Zibanejad is certainly worth his current deal and more so no issues with me had we re-signed him.
Ceci i probably would have traded. Dzingel i would have tried to get a Turris like deal (the one he signed woth us not Nashville). I liked Hoffman in spite of his flaws so i would have gone for term the first time he came up for a contract instead of going to arb and then having to sign him later when he had substantially more leverage.

But that's not really the point here. If somebody is going to claim that the team has put its money where its mouth is regardong signing players when they earn it, they need to show their work. Imo the team bas shown mixed signals at best.

 

[Micklebot]

I doubt the GMs are going to maliciously throw sheets around like Montreal did. I doubt someone would risk 4 firsts on one player.

Although, comparing EK65 vs TS72 stats... the projections are pretty high IMO.

As said before... I am Delta-Oscar-November-Echo here if the young three don't get signed.

Take a look at teams last 4 first round picks and how they compare to guys like Chabot or Marner. It might not be as crazy as ut seems for some teams...

 

[danielpalfredsson]

McDavid will be only 28 years old when his current contract expires....... so it does not buy 3 UFA years, only 1 UFA year.

Pretty good comparable, if you ask me.

It doesn't work that way.

McDavid's extension had 4 UFA years.

RFA in most cases is 7 NHL seasons or age 27, whichever comes first. McDavid burned 3/7 during his ELC.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

We let Daniel ****ing Alfredsson walk away from this team over money. That man should've been given a blank check to play one more year after his 1 million dollar season.

And that is when the dominoes started to fall, and will keep falling for awhile.

Players aren't going to take a hometown discount to play for Ottawa after that, and young guys (after seeing Karlsson and Stone leave) aren't going to stick around a long time if they feel there won't be a team team around them, either. That's a key...not only will we have to come up with the money to sign the kids, but also need decent money for good support players, as well.

 

[JD1]

Well Zibanejad is certainly worth his current deal and more so no issues with me had we re-signed him.
Ceci i probably would have traded. Dzingel i would have tried to get a Turris like deal (the one he signed woth us not Nashville). I liked Hoffman in spite of his flaws so i would have gone for term the first time he came up for a contract instead of going to arb and then having to sign him later when he had substantially more leverage.

But that's not really the point here. If somebody is going to claim that the team has put its money where its mouth is regardong signing players when they earn it, they need to show their work. Imo the team bas shown mixed signals at best.

Zibanejed is definitely worth his deal.he also definitely had commitment to the game issues. Unlike a lot of the Ryan criticisms Zibenejad used to show up for camp not ready. And I say that while also saying he was my favourite player.

We signed Hoffman to a decent 4 year deal.

Dzingle has always had compete issues in my opinion

I agree that the team needs to step up and sign some players but I'm not convinced that some guys that are no longer here would have been the right signings

 

[2CHAINZ]

Zibanejed is definitely worth his deal.he also definitely had commitment to the game issues. Unlike a lot of the Ryan criticisms Zibenejad used to show up for camp not ready. And I say that while also saying he was my favourite player.

We signed Hoffman to a decent 4 year deal.

Dzingle has always had compete issues in my opinion

I agree that the team needs to step up and sign some players but I'm not convinced that some guys that are no longer here would have been the right signings

We traded a pick with Zibanejad so the rangers would pay Brassards bonus. Just seriously look at those two players and think about that trade. This horrible trade doesn't get mentioned enough cause of the playoff run but it was terrible and all about money.

 

[Micklebot]

Zibanejed is definitely worth his deal.he also definitely had commitment to the game issues. Unlike a lot of the Ryan criticisms Zibenejad used to show up for camp not ready. And I say that while also saying he was my favourite player.

But the year we traded him Dorion non stop praising his commitment and how great of shape he was in. It seemed like he had taken the criticism to heart and worked towards changing his ways, though I suppose it could have just been Dorion trying to pump his value through the media.

We signed Hoffman to a decent 4 year deal.

We also took him to arbitration one year prior offering him 1.75 to his request of 3.4 after he lead the team in goals. I get that arbitration is all about taking an extreme, but that's the timing to get a great deal like we did with Turris. We eventually signed him to a 4 year deal as you say, so credit where it's due, my point with him is that there are mixed results here.

Dzingle has always had compete issues in my opinion

Sure, all players have their warts. My point is that we aren't exactly showing a financial commitment to these guys and seeing them grow with the team, we're kicking the can down the road and backing ourselves into corners.

I agree that the team needs to step up and sign some players but I'm not convinced that some guys that are no longer here would have been the right signings

At the end of the day, my point was never that we should have signed all the guys we parted with to big deals, just that saying EM and Dorion have put their money where their mouths are wrt paying players when they've earned it falls on deaf ears when there is a history of kicking the can down the road. Sometimes not paying guys that have earned it turns out to be the right decision, like with Turris so far, that doesn't change the reality that the team is risk adverser in a big way imo when it comes to paying guys big contracts.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

But the year we traded him Dorion non stop praising his commitment and how great of shape he was in. It seemed like he had taken the criticism to heart and worked towards changing his ways, though I suppose it could have just been Dorion trying to pump his value through the media.


We also took him to arbitration one year prior offering him 1.75 to his request of 3.4 after he lead the team in goals. I get that arbitration is all about taking an extreme, but that's the timing to get a great deal like we did with Turris. We eventually signed him to a 4 year deal as you say, so credit where it's due, my point with him is that there are mixed results here.


Sure, all players have their warts. My point is that we aren't exactly showing a financial commitment to these guys and seeing them grow with the team, we're kicking the can down the road and backing ourselves into corners.



At the end of the day, my point was never that we should have signed all the guys we parted with to big deals, just that saying EM and Dorion have put their money where their mouths are wrt paying players when they've earned it falls on deaf ears when there is a history of kicking the can down the road. Sometimes not paying guys that have earned it turns out to be the right decision, like with Turris so far, that doesn't change the reality that the team is risk adverser in a big way imo when it comes to paying guys big contracts.

Not disagreeing with you but I have to say that we give PD too much credit by saying he is making these bad decisions.

I sincerely think he’s not capable of doing much with his constraints from above; aka EM.

I would think he has some clear instructions that say all players should go to arbitration if they don’t align, full stop. No second time up at bat, no deals, no nothing.

PD has low EQ and that will not change ever. He can’t do the business side well, IMO

The elusive POHO is so needed now for the next few contract negotiations.

Maybe ...probably coincidentally, this is why nothing is happening yet.

 

[Sens]

If the team bridges White instead of long term... it will show me they have no long term plan

White, Chabot and Tkachuk all should be locked into long term deals as the clubs core if they want anyone to believe in the rebuild

A 1-2 year deal to White shows me that was a lie and to expect similar treatment on Chabot

Bridge deal and then traded

 

[Larionov]

If the team bridges White instead of long term... it will show me they have no long term plan

White, Chabot and Tkachuk all should be locked into long term deals as the clubs core if they want anyone to believe in the rebuild

A 1-2 year deal to White shows me that was a lie and to expect similar treatment on Chabot

Bridge deal and then traded

It takes two sides to sign a deal though. I hear you on White, but it is entirely possible that White's camp, with no leverage at present, doesn't want to sign anything more than a bridge deal to take them to a time when they do have some leverage...

 

[JD1]

We traded a pick with Zibanejad so the rangers would pay Brassards bonus. Just seriously look at those two players and think about that trade. This horrible trade doesn't get mentioned enough cause of the playoff run but it was terrible and all about money.

Zibanejad imo resolved his commitment to the game issues once he landed in NY. who knows, maybe it was a difference in veteran leadership...something made him see things differently. His game took off. Brassard's game on the other hand collapsed. In hindsight we definitely got hosed on that deal. At the time, brassard was the better player.

 

[JD1]

Not disagreeing with you but I have to say that we give PD too much credit by saying he is making these bad decisions.

I sincerely think he’s not capable of doing much with his constraints from above; aka EM.

I would think he has some clear instructions that say all players should go to arbitration if they don’t align, full stop. No second time up at bat, no deals, no nothing.

PD has low EQ and that will not change ever. He can’t do the business side well, IMO

The elusive POHO is so needed now for the next few contract negotiations.

Maybe ...probably coincidentally, this is why nothing is happening yet.

I think people here believe Melnyk is far more involved in hockey decisions than he actually is. I'm not saying he is totally uninvolved but I think he primarily sets financial direction and that's that. A lot if owners in pro sports do that. I suspect he gets involved in approving certain discussions but otherwise isn't day to day. I also believe he's likely been less involved the past few years other than the budget strategy. He wouldn't really need to approve a cost cutting measure

 

[JD1]

If the team bridges White instead of long term... it will show me they have no long term plan

White, Chabot and Tkachuk all should be locked into long term deals as the clubs core if they want anyone to believe in the rebuild

A 1-2 year deal to White shows me that was a lie and to expect similar treatment on Chabot

Bridge deal and then traded

You can think about White's contract any way you....that's your prerogative...but if I was White's agent I would not be looking for a long term deal. I like White's upside but he hasn't got enough NHL stats under his belt. If he signs long term he will leave money on the table. Potentially a lot of money.

Suppose White signs a 2 year deal then posts back to back seasons of 50 something points which is not unrealistic At that point he is looking at a much larger pay day.

You can blame it on the team and say they have no plan if White signs a bridge deal, but I am sure White and his agency have a plan too and their plan may not, likely does not, include signing a long term deal right now

 

[JD1]

It takes two sides to sign a deal though. I hear you on White, but it is entirely possible that White's camp, with no leverage at present, doesn't want to sign anything more than a bridge deal to take them to a time when they do have some leverage...

I 100% agree. Players pay agents a lot of money.

White has more upside than stats at this point and his agency knows that

 

[The Lewler]

Ottawa must keep chabot at all costs. Personally I don’t see an offer sheet scenario occurring, but I especially don’t see any team making an offer that would require four firsts. Has that ever happened? That would be way too much for teams IMO.

That's not gonna fly in Ottawa Senators land. No such thing as "no matter the cost".

 

[NorthCoast]

Because there aren't numerous creative accounting tacticts that the franchises can and do take to reduce tax burdens and increase non-hrr revenues? I mean, i am sure the teams will cry foul but they aren't angels here either...

Oh yeah, agree totally. I honestly don't care if either get their money, if the split is 50/50 or 1/99 or whatever.

All I care about is the equal playing field, or as much or an equal playing field as possible so that small markets are not at even more of a disadvantage.

 

[NorthCoast]

Read the Forbes article on Tavares's contract. It's pretty clear the bonus structure is based on tax.

Actually it's not clear at all and the article leaves out a bit of the explanation of what is happening.


The reason Tavares can save 11-12 mil on taxes over the length of his contract is based on the difference between Ontario income tax rate of 53% vs. a potential (if he moved to Florida) tax free state income tax rate of 37%. Run the math on the contract. That's where the savings comes from.

All this article is explaining, badly IMO, is that as a Canadian citizen (regardless of residency) he also owes Canada taxes, BUT by maintaining US residency it is capped at 15% (note: rate may have now changed but doesn't matter), AND that 15% is credited fully against his US tax rate...ie: in the US he would only pay 22%. (37% minus 15% to Canada).

Based on the above, I don't see how bonus vs. salary makes a difference in the savings because if he was paid in salary it would still be 100% credited against his US tax rate, and the savings would be the same.


Hey, I could still be wrong but if so please let me know where.

 

[danielpalfredsson]

Zib trade was about maximizing our 68M budget while our Karlsson/Stone window was open. It was always going to be 3 years of Brass vs 3 years of Zibanejad because of the way our ownership has set up the team.

Had we kept Zibanejad, we'd be in the exact same spot as we are now, which is that he wouldn't be on our roster. We'd have gotten a similar package for Zibanejad with 1.5 years left or as a UFA in 2019 (maybe less since Brassard was overvalued).

It's a trade that would seem terrible if most other NHL teams made it, but I can forgive it because of how I interpret the conditions we operate under as. I don't think we had the same upside with Zibanejad because I think we weren't going to give him that Rangers extension, we were going to go 2 more years through arbitration and liquidate him as a UFA.

 

[JD1]

Actually it's not clear at all and the article leaves out a bit of the explanation of what is happening.


The reason Tavares can save 11-12 mil on taxes over the length of his contract is based on the difference between Ontario income tax rate of 53% vs. a potential (if he moved to Florida) tax free state income tax rate of 37%. Run the math on the contract. That's where the savings comes from.

All this article is explaining, badly IMO, is that as a Canadian citizen (regardless of residency) he also owes Canada taxes, BUT by maintaining US residency it is capped at 15% (note: rate may have now changed but doesn't matter), AND that 15% is credited fully against his US tax rate...ie: in the US he would only pay 22%. (37% minus 15% to Canada).

Based on the above, I don't see how bonus vs. salary makes a difference in the savings because if he was paid in salary it would still be 100% credited against his US tax rate, and the savings would be the same.


Hey, I could still be wrong but if so please let me know where.

The 15% cap is on bonus money, at least how I interpret the article.

 

[Micklebot]

The 15% cap is on bonus money, at least how I interpret the article.

So the way i understand it is

1. Americans are required to pay american taxes on all their global income regardless of residency.
2. If they have been deducted at source by an employer in canada the tax treaty takes force to prevent double taxation on the same income.
3. If canada taxes them more than what their US state of residency would they are not taxed any further
4. If they are taxed less tby Canada then their home state would have, they pay the difference.
5. As part of the treaty, bonuses are taxed at a kower rate than normal (15% if i recall)
6. As a result, the bonus ends up being taxed as though they reside and work in the states vice Canada.

So the bonese aren't taxed at 15% in the end as they would be paying at minimum the US Federal tax of 37%, just 15% would be deducted at source and the remaining 22% would be on their US tax filings.

Edit: a little off topic but USA is one of two countries that tax citizens world incone regarless of where it is earned or you reside. This can be problematic for people working abroad that have children while in the US. Diplomats have an exception but if you go work for google for 3 years and have akid there before retuning to Canada your child needs to file US taxes for the rest of his life or renounce his citizenship.

 

[harrisb]

I think people here believe Melnyk is far more involved in hockey decisions than he actually is. I'm not saying he is totally uninvolved but I think he primarily sets financial direction and that's that. A lot if owners in pro sports do that. I suspect he gets involved in approving certain discussions but otherwise isn't day to day. I also believe he's likely been less involved the past few years other than the budget strategy. He wouldn't really need to approve a cost cutting measure

I agree if this is the situation: "Pierre, your salary expenditures must be under 47m this year...." PD: "Duh, ok boss"

 

[GrantLemons]

I think people here believe Melnyk is far more involved in hockey decisions than he actually is. I'm not saying he is totally uninvolved but I think he primarily sets financial direction and that's that. A lot if owners in pro sports do that. I suspect he gets involved in approving certain discussions but otherwise isn't day to day. I also believe he's likely been less involved the past few years other than the budget strategy. He wouldn't really need to approve a cost cutting measure

It's obviously all speculation, but I think you're wrong on this. If you listen to his radio interview with Bob McCown from awhile back, the way he speaks about hockeys ops is unlike any other owner I've ever heard (outside of maybe Jerry Jones, and we know how involved he is). Discussing exactly what pieces are required to build a cup contending team, how many "future NHL star" prospects we currently have sitting in Belleville, exactly how many picks we have in the coming drafts etc.

He may be more hands off now that the teardown is completed, but I think he was heavily involved during that process, and will continue to be involved when we start having to put pen to paper for our young guys. Even just anecdotally, I heard someone that worked in the org said "You can't order a box of pens without Eugene having a say in it". He's just that type of guy. If he wasn't, he'd be hiring qualified staff and letting them do their thing.

I've worked for a CEO exactly like Eugene in a smallish company. They think they know and can do everything themselves, therefore hiring people to do it for them is a waste of cash. The company is a steadily sinking ship because of it (like the Sens).

 

[BatherSeason]

Zibanejad imo resolved his commitment to the game issues once he landed in NY. who knows, maybe it was a difference in veteran leadership...something made him see things differently. His game took off. Brassard's game on the other hand collapsed. In hindsight we definitely got hosed on that deal. At the time, brassard was the better player.

You do realize that Zibanejad has now played 3 seasons with the Rangers and only this past season did he exceed any of the numbers that he had with the Sens. He was also a -23 in 2017-2018. So, his game didn't take off when he got there, his game took off this past season, his thrid in New York, his 25 year old season, like it would have here. But lets continue the trend of dragging players through mud for years after they are treated.

Lets remember, we traded him when he was 22-23 years old, players that young are still finding their way in the league.

 

[BatherSeason]

I think people here believe Melnyk is far more involved in hockey decisions than he actually is.

Its not just people here, its hockey fans across North America and probably the world who believe and know that Melnyk is far more involved in hockey decisions that we want to believe.