Why is hockey the only sport not to produce a GOAT-calibre player in the last decade or so?

BenningHurtsMySoul

Unfair Huggy Bear
Mar 18, 2008
25,274
10,926
Port Coquitlam, BC
McDavid is certainly in this vein.

It’s just that hockey is the most difficult pro sport for one player to absolutely dominate and carry a team. There isn’t a massive gap between the best players in the league and the rest of the pack, simply because one player can’t have the same type of impact someone like a LeBron playing all night can have.
 

bambamcam4ever

107 and counting
Feb 16, 2012
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Even if you think James is better than Jordan (he's not), there's no way to argue he's significantly better

Lebron James is probably like the 6th or 7th best player ever, and there's no shame in that, he's AN all-time great, just not THE all-time great
So there are five or six better basketball players better than LeBron? I'd like to hear them.

In reality, Jordan had a better mid-range shot, FT shooting, was quicker due to being shorter, and had better layup finishing ability yet was less effective at scoring at the rim due to James' combination of height, size and quickness. LeBron is better at everything else. He simply makes those around him better in ways Jordan did not.
 
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amnesiac

Space Oddity
Jul 10, 2010
13,754
7,596
Montreal
NHL Gretzky 80/90s
MLB Ruth 1920s!
NBA Jordan 80s/90s
NFL Brady 2000-present

I dont understand why its expected that there would be a new GOAT now
 
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weastern bias

worst team in the league
Feb 3, 2012
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So there are five or six better basketball players better than LeBron? I'd like to hear them.

Jordan
Russell
Kareem
Magic
Wilt

In reality, Jordan had a better mid-range shot, FT shooting, was quicker due to being shorter, and had better layup finishing ability yet was less effective at scoring at the rim due to James' combination of height, size and quickness. LeBron is better at everything else. He simply makes those around him better in ways Jordan did not.

Jordan was a better scorer, shooter, defender, leader, and winner; James really only has him beat in passing, strength/athleticism, and longevity

I also find the idea that Lebron James makes his teammates better a bit dubious, there's a ceiling to what he gets out of his teammates even when paired with multiple allstars because he demands the whole scheme runs through him so even his star teammates become glorified role players

This is getting a bit off topic, but IMO the case for Lebron as GOAT is a bit more mythical than substantive
 

bambamcam4ever

107 and counting
Feb 16, 2012
14,412
6,447
Jordan
Russell
Kareem
Magic
Wilt



Jordan was a better scorer, shooter, defender, leader, and winner; James really only has him beat in passing, strength/athleticism, and longevity

I also find the idea that Lebron James makes his teammates better a bit dubious, there's a ceiling to what he gets out of his teammates even when paired with multiple allstars because he demands the whole scheme runs through him so even his star teammates become glorified role players

This is getting a bit off topic, but IMO the case for Lebron as GOAT is a bit more mythical than substantive
People who claim Jordan was a better defender than Lebron unveil their lack of knowledge about the sport. The most important attribute defensively is height. If Lebron can effectively guard four positions and Jordan can only do so for two, Lebron is the more effective defender in a team game.

And yes Jordan scored slightly more at a less efficient rate.

As for the bolded, hahahahahahahhahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhaha.
 
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weastern bias

worst team in the league
Feb 3, 2012
10,385
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People who claim Jordan was a better defender than Lebron unveil their lack of knowledge about the sport. The most important attribute defensively is height. If Lebron can effectively guard four positions and Jordan can only do so for two, Lebron is the more effective defender in a team game.

Lebron James is an entire 2 inches taller than Michael Jordan, so there's not really that much of an advantage there

James is a frontcourt player by definition, and plays roaming off-ball defense racking up weakside blocks by helping off of a lesser player

Jordan played in the era where zone defense was illegal, and had to lock down an attacker one-on-one, and was absolutely elite at doing so

A lot of people give modern players guff over the lack of handchecking in the game, but the trade off is they made zone D legal and now guys have to deal with guys like Lebron streaking in to help while they drive

They are both fantastic defensively, and I think both were actually helped by the rules of their era in doing so, but Jordan actually won a DPOY award and was 1st team all defense 9 times compared to James' 5 appearances; Jordan gets the edge

And yes Jordan scored slightly more at a less efficient rate.

He actually scored a lot more on a per game basis at only a marginally less efficient rate

Jordan had 8 seasons scoring 30+ P/G, including 7 in a row, Lebron has 2 seasons ever

Jordan .496FG% 22.9 shots .569TS%

James .504FG% 19.6 shots .586TS%

So on more than 3 more shots a game Jordan's shooting percentage is less than 1% lower than James'

James' TS% (if you like fancy stats) is less than 2% higher than Jordan's, but he also took almost 3 more 3-point shots a game

Their efficiency numbers are nearly identical, but Jordan scored more by a healthy amount even if you include his Washington years

As for the bolded, hahahahahahahhahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhaha.

Laugh if you'd like, but Basketball, more than any other major team sport, is the game where the efforts of a single player can will a team to victory

Bill Russell was not the biggest, strongest, most imposing, or certainly not the most offensively skilled center of his era, but he just won

He matched up against guys like Chamberlain, Petit, and Thurmond and all he did was win 11 championships in the span of 13 years and was the head coach for the last 2 wins

That era was built for a guy like Wilt Chamberlain to dominate and run roughshod over the league, but he never could because there was a guy in Boston who cared so much more about doing whatever it took to make his team better than about making himself look good that he never had the chance to do so

Lebron James is the Wilt of his era, a physical demi-god stats monster who has a losing record in the most important games despite consistently playing on stacked rosters

Bill Russell was not a more talented or skilled athlete than either Chamberlain or James, but he was the better basketball player because he cared to be
 

Stud Muffin

Registered User
Jan 2, 2014
5,363
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Manitoba
Hockey has evolved so much since Gretzky played. None of the other Sports have changed even a fraction as much as Hockey has. When people talk about the GOAT they want numbers to be able to make a case, but in Hockey it’s just not possible with the way goalies have evolved and changed, there’s no possible way for McDavid or anyone else to score as many points as Gretzky did back then which makes the case hard.
 
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McShogun99

Registered User
Aug 30, 2009
17,928
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Edmonton
Ovi can wind up 1st all time in goals and still have essentially zero argument for breaking into the top 4 of all time, which is what the OP means by hockey has not produced a goat calibre player in the last decade or so.

If Ovechkin was Canadian he'd be called a legend by the media like Richard and Orr. At worst he's going to be the third highest goal scorer in NHL history.
 

Legion34

Registered User
Jan 24, 2006
18,193
8,284
Hockey has evolved so much since Gretzky played. None of the other Sports have changed even a fraction as much as Hockey has. When people talk about the GOAT they want numbers to be able to make a case, but in Hockey it’s just not possible with the way goalies have evolved and changed, there’s no possible way for McDavid or anyone else to score as many points as Gretzky did back then which makes the case hard.

Well then you look at relative peers. Wayne was doing things so far above his own peers.

If macdavid was scoring 150 in a 100 pt league.
There may be an argument. Gretzky was singularly dominant since he was like 6 years old
 
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OppositeLocK

Registered User
Nov 18, 2017
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50 goals in 50 games? When in the world was Crosby on pace for that?

Not sure if you were just being sarcastic or what...

"In the 2010–11 season, Crosby had a 25-game point streak, which began November 5, 2010 against the Anaheim Ducks and ended December 28, 2010 against the New York Islanders. During this streak, he had 27 goals (including three hat-tricks) and 24 assists for 51 points. This streak was tied for 11th-longest point streak in NHL history, and he was named First Star of the Month in both November and December."

I really think the way he was playing, even heating up, he would have had the 18 goals he needed in the 9 remaining games had he not been concussed.
 

Individual 1

Registered User
Jan 25, 2012
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If Ovechkin was Canadian he'd be called a legend by the media like Richard and Orr. At worst he's going to be the third highest goal scorer in NHL history.
Ovi will be considered a legend, his legend will never be what Richards is because he was a Montreal Canadian born in Montreal and you have to account for the time period. As a player it will be reasonable for people to argue Ovi over Richard and vice versa.

Orr has one more Art Ross Trophy than Ovi, Orr was 7 times top 3 in Hart Trophy voting compared to 5 for Ovi. Orr won an Art Ross Trophy without winning the Hart Trophy which shows it is clearly harder for defencemen to get Hart votes. Orr was top 3 in points every season from 69-70 to 74-75 (6), Ovi has been top 5 in points 6 times top 3, 5 times. For reference Paul Coffey was top 10 in points 6 times.

Bobby Orr's legend is based on him being the best defencemen ever with likely the highest peak of all players.
 

Edmonton East

BUT the ADvaNCEd STatS...
Nov 25, 2007
6,491
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People who claim Jordan was a better defender than Lebron unveil their lack of knowledge about the sport. The most important attribute defensively is height. If Lebron can effectively guard four positions and Jordan can only do so for two, Lebron is the more effective defender in a team game.

And yes Jordan scored slightly more at a less efficient rate.

As for the bolded, hahahahahahahhahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhaha.
This is one of the worst NBA takes I've ever seen.
 

KoozNetsOff 92

Hala Madrid
Apr 6, 2016
8,567
8,229
"In the 2010–11 season, Crosby had a 25-game point streak, which began November 5, 2010 against the Anaheim Ducks and ended December 28, 2010 against the New York Islanders. During this streak, he had 27 goals (including three hat-tricks) and 24 assists for 51 points. This streak was tied for 11th-longest point streak in NHL history, and he was named First Star of the Month in both November and December."

I really think the way he was playing, even heating up, he would have had the 18 goals he needed in the 9 remaining games had he not been concussed.

Lol no.
 
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TheDawnOfANewTage

Dahlin, it’ll all be fine
Dec 17, 2018
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Well then you look at relative peers. Wayne was doing things so far above his own peers.

If macdavid was scoring 150 in a 100 pt league.
There may be an argument. Gretzky was singularly dominant since he was like 6 years old

It's not that simple either though, because the gap in player skill is smaller today. Ruth hit 59 homers in 1921, second place hit 24. Expecting Trout to more than double his peers HR total would be too much, you have to account for whether the game's skill gap between the stars and everyone else has shrunk as well.
 

Minar

Registered User
Aug 27, 2018
328
288
Hockey has evolved so much since Gretzky played. None of the other Sports have changed even a fraction as much as Hockey has. When people talk about the GOAT they want numbers to be able to make a case, but in Hockey it’s just not possible with the way goalies have evolved and changed, there’s no possible way for McDavid or anyone else to score as many points as Gretzky did back then which makes the case hard.
 

Minar

Registered User
Aug 27, 2018
328
288
there wasnt any way for players other than gretzky/lemuiex to get anywhere near those kind of numbers in the 80s either.
 
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FerklundCGY

Registered User
Jul 3, 2017
1,897
1,974
Because other sports are much cheaper and easier to put your kids into when they're young, whereas hockey is crazy expensive and unaffordable for most families.

You gotta think, most top athletes in the other major sports usually come from very poor backgrounds and tough childhoods. They really had to put their all into that sport and desire to get out of their childhood situation. Not to mention they're battling a much larger amount of athletes to be drafted/make the big league.

In hockey, most players come from already pretty well-off families who could comfortably afford to put them into hockey, continually buy them new equipment as they grew older, etc.. plus, they have to beat out a much, much, muuuuch smaller group of players to make the big leagues when compared to football/basketball/soccer/baseball/etc..

It's just a very tough/near impossible situation for most families to afford putting their kids into hockey year after year, especially when there's much cheaper options.
 

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