Why is hockey the only sport not to produce a GOAT-calibre player in the last decade or so?

[Los merengues]

of course you'd benefit in soccer from illegal PEDs. Blood doping and EPO given how much running there is

Surely. Alot less than in most though. Abnormal running numbers would stick out like a sore thumb and using the best posession team in history as an example of benificaries of doping was just funny. Spain would walk and pass their way to the opposition half and set up a ball circulation clinic The other team would be the one doing the running.

 

[Corto]

No other sport had Gretzky.

That's basically it.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

Ovechkin post 2010 is honestly quite overrated. His goal scoring is still GOAT level but the rest of his game really isn't that great. He scores 50 goals a year yet he isn't even close to scoring 100 points, and his game as a whole is a bit one-dimensional compared to other players on the top 10-15 list. His playoff resume is also meh compared to other players in the top 10-15 all time. That's kind of why this thread was made because no one in hockey post-Mario is even close to being in the GOAT discussion

I was talking GOAT goalscorer. I agree that neither him or sid can get into top 4. I struggle with putting them in the top 10 tbh.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

There’s your first problem. Using Shannon Sharpe as a point of reference.

I'm not using him as a sole reference nor do I even watch the show, but analysts of his ilk and fans world wide use it pluralized, I guess you just need to get used to that.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

Ovechkin post 2010 is honestly quite overrated. His goal scoring is still GOAT level but the rest of his game really isn't that great. He scores 50 goals a year yet he isn't even close to scoring 100 points, and his game as a whole is a bit one-dimensional compared to other players on the top 10-15 list. His playoff resume is also meh compared to other players in the top 10-15 all time. That's kind of why this thread was made because no one in hockey post-Mario is even close to being in the GOAT discussion

Lol to this entire post. Ovechkin has already cemented himself firmly in the top 10 of all time it's only a matter of where he'll finish. The top 3 are nearly unassailable though.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

Ovechkin will never crack the top 4.

A lot of people already acknowledge him as the best goalscorer of all time, and a lot of those same people would still have him behind Crosby on all time rankings. That's really not all that surprising. After 6 rockets out of the last 7 years, Ovechkin still wasn't considered the best player in the league in any of those years. As a matter of fact, it has been a decade since Ovechkin was last considered the best player in the league. Since the 2010 Vancouver Olympics, which more or less represents the end of Ovechkin's peak, he has generally been regarded as a top 10 player in the league as opposed to the best player in the league, even though everyone still sees him as the best goalscorer around.

So I don't know why you'd look back at his goal totals and wonder why he's not regarded more highly when it's fairly obvious why he'd be ranked below Crosby on an all-time scale. A guy like Brett Hull is one of the best goal scorer of all-time and that doesn't make him a shoe-in for the top 5 either.

While Ovechkin is behind Crosby all time, he's directly behind and it's pretty nonsensical to have either of them out of the top 10 all time. What they've done in the modern era of hockey is astounding.

Comparing Brett Hull to Ovechkin as a player is pretty ridiculous as Ovechkin is a far more effective player at everything. I know you're using the comparable as a goal scorer but Ovi is so much more. Goal scoring needs to stop being disrespected in today's game, it's the hardest thing to do in the game yet you hear "Just a goal scorer" tossed around like nothing. The goal of the game is to score goals and you have a guy still doing it better than anyone in the league in his 14th season, that's pretty crazy.

Ovechkin over the passed 2 years has clearly been a top 5 player in the league and should have been a Hart nominee the year they won the Cup.

 

[hoglund]

You didn't explain what "goat" calibre means, if you're referring to players that continually blow games and are the "goat " of the game, then I'd say that there have been many Todd Gill and more recently Gardiner.

 

[Maestro84]

I was talking GOAT goalscorer. I agree that neither him or sid can get into top 4. I struggle with putting them in the top 10 tbh.

As I said before, Steph Curry is the GOAT shooter in the NBA, but he's definitely not a GOAT candidate either. Ovechkin is a legendary goal scorer but no other part of his game is all that elite when compared to other players in the top 10-15 all time. Crosby is solid all around but isn't a master at anything like the players ranked in the top 10 are

 

[BehindTheTimes]

As I said before, Steph Curry is the GOAT shooter in the NBA, but he's definitely not a GOAT candidate either. Ovechkin is a legendary goal scorer but no other part of his game is all that elite when compared to other players in the top 10-15 all time. Crosby is solid all around but isn't a master at anything like the players ranked in the top 10 are

I don't think there is much separation between sid/ovi to be perfectly honest. They're completely different players that bring different skill sets/value in what they do. I think goalscoring has become undervalued somehow. What ovi is doing is ridiculous considering he's not completely one dimensional like Brett Hull was. Crosby is the more well-rounded for sure, but ovi's edge in goal scoring bridges the gap.

 

[Mbraunm]

There hasn’t been a GOAT level player since Mario and Wayne for a simple reason:
No one yet has a similar level of talent to those two(at least yet)

 

[wetcoast]

While Ovechkin is behind Crosby all time, he's directly behind and it's pretty nonsensical to have either of them out of the top 10 all time. What they've done in the modern era of hockey is astounding.

While I think Ovechkin probably does end up in the top 10 of all time it's also possible he doesn't as there have been 100 years of NHL hockey so it's possible that someone from the other 80 years might slip in between Crosby and Ovechkin.

I think it's possible that a current player could also end up slipping between Crosby and Ovechkin but that is also 15 years away so we can see how it unfolds.

Comparing Brett Hull to Ovechkin as a player is pretty ridiculous as Ovechkin is a far more effective player at everything. I know you're using the comparable as a goal scorer but Ovi is so much more. Goal scoring needs to stop being disrespected in today's game, it's the hardest thing to do in the game yet you hear "Just a goal scorer" tossed around like nothing. The goal of the game is to score goals and you have a guy still doing it better than anyone in the league in his 14th season, that's pretty crazy.

Ovechkin is better than Brett Hull plain and simple.

And you are partly right, the name of the game is scoring goals but the bigger goal of the game is winning your last game of the season.

Ovechkin over the passed 2 years has clearly been a top 5 player in the league and should have been a Hart nominee the year they won the Cup.

Here are the top scoring players over the last 2 years.

I can easily see 5 forwards that have been better than him.

Also voters disagree for 17-18, Ovechkin was 9th in Hart voting and that doesn't look out of place really.

2017-18 NHL Awards Voting | Hockey-Reference.com

 

[Hockey4Lyfe]

I'm not using him as a sole reference nor do I even watch the show, but analysts of his ilk and fans world wide use it pluralized, I guess you just need to get used to that.

You can continue to do that. But I’m just saying it’s wrong to do and you are wrong with them.

 

[InglewoodJack]

There aren't really other sports where you have a league like Gretzky's or lemieux where you had a mix of superstars and laughably terrible scrubs and low quality goaltending. The closest comparison I can make is to NBA in the 50s where Wilt could average 50 a game playing against grocery stock boys. In fact, both the NBA and MLB are becoming more offensively friendly while the NHL has gone the opposite way, so you aren't going to get a guy that stands way out like Gretz did in the 80s.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

There aren't really other sports where you have a league like Gretzky's or lemieux where you had a mix of superstars and laughably terrible scrubs and low quality goaltending. The closest comparison I can make is to NBA in the 50s where Wilt could average 50 a game playing against grocery stock boys. In fact, both the NBA and MLB are becoming more offensively friendly while the NHL has gone the opposite way, so you aren't going to get a guy that stands way out like Gretz did in the 80s.

Lemieux dominated the 90s and early 2000s too. It's not just the era, Gretzky/Lemieux are far superior to anyone playing today. No doubt in my mind if Kucherov is hitting 130 points prime Lemieux hits at least 150 today.

Ppg leaders in the 90s:

Lemieux 2.06
Gretzky 1.37
Lindros 1.35
Jagr 1.32
Lafontaine 1.30

1990s NHL Scoring Leaders

Today's stars are more like Jagr/Lindros level. A Gretzky or Lemieux type player is exceedingly rare.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

While I think Ovechkin probably does end up in the top 10 of all time it's also possible he doesn't as there have been 100 years of NHL hockey so it's possible that someone from the other 80 years might slip in between Crosby and Ovechkin.

I think it's possible that a current player could also end up slipping between Crosby and Ovechkin but that is also 15 years away so we can see how it unfolds.



Ovechkin is better than Brett Hull plain and simple.

And you are partly right, the name of the game is scoring goals but the bigger goal of the game is winning your last game of the season.



Here are the top scoring players over the last 2 years.

I can easily see 5 forwards that have been better than him.

Also voters disagree for 17-18, Ovechkin was 9th in Hart voting and that doesn't look out of place really.

2017-18 NHL Awards Voting | Hockey-Reference.com

And almost to a T, any analyst worth their salt knows and has expressed on podcasts that 9th was absurd for Ovechkin that year. That Capitals team was dead in the water and he carried them to a division title subsequently leading to the Cup. For 3 quarters of the year no other Capital was in the top 25 in scoring and their starting goaltender lost their job, Ovechkin was as valuable as anyone to their team that year and the playoffs proved that fact.

I've been chiming this in here and elsewhere, but I think nostalgia holds too heavy a sway in NHL's hollowed halls. Other sports embrace the new far more, especially with their superstars but the NHL doesn't for some reason. I personally think it's absurd not to have Crosby and Ovechkin cemented in the top 10 now, even if it's 9 and 10. Seeing players like Maurice Richard hold a place among those 10 is a testament to rose tinted glasses, Ovechkin has surpassed him as a player. Now if we're including goalies in this top 10, MAYBE they aren't there yet but by the end I think it's ridiculous not to have both there because they certainly deserve it. The league no longer has less than 20 teams and just now are scoring numbers approaching what used to happen regularly in previous eras, what these 2 players have done in one of the lowest scoring eras of the game is astronomical and that goes without saying that they've carried and continue to carry the league on their backs.

As for 5 forwards being better, outside of McDavid and Kucherov individually, who? What player over the last 2 years has led their team to the level of playoff success and regular season success that Ovechkin has? Not Kane or Crosby.

Regardless, I appreciate your measured response.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

I don't think there is much separation between sid/ovi to be perfectly honest. They're completely different players that bring different skill sets/value in what they do. I think goalscoring has become undervalued somehow. What ovi is doing is ridiculous considering he's not completely one dimensional like Brett Hull was. Crosby is the more well-rounded for sure, but ovi's edge in goal scoring bridges the gap.

The separation is and will remain team success until Ovechkin can win another. Team success isn't the only factor, but it is a factor and for 2 players so intertwined it's very difficult if at all possible to make a case for Ovi being ahead of Crosby, but they are beside each other historically. If Ovechkin can lead the Capitals to another, well....

 

[JasonRoseEh]

There hasn’t been a GOAT level player since Mario and Wayne for a simple reason:
No one yet has a similar level of talent to those two(at least yet)

I just don't agree with this and I say this without denying their level of talent. There is neither the space, or pace of scoring to properly weight modern players equally against passed greats. The game is so much faster and goaltending/defense is just so much better that it's difficult for one player to carry the puck as much as past greats did to impact the game in the ways they did.

Are Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr and Howe unassailable? Quite possibly but it has more to do with nostalgia to me than players today not being as good.

 

[DoubleK81]

Technology. Not a single other sport has benefited from technology advancements greater than hockey over the last 25 years.

What technological advancements have any of the other sports had over the last 25 years that are even notable compared to hockey? Nothing.

No other sport uses as much gear as a hockey player. With gear weighing less leads to smaller equipment with more protection, faster more agile players. Sticks that can be personally tailored to each player, optimizing shooting abilities. Goalies benefit from lighter equipment even more, along with ever increasing data on positioning over athletic skills. The overall increase in quality of equipment used to play the game has decreased the margin of skill VS equipment. This isn't to say that the top players of years past would do as well in current years or vice versa.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

I don't watch other pro sports outside of big soccer matchs so I don't know if this is true but I just McGuire claim something worth considering:

There hasn't been a bad draft since 2003. Some weaker, some better than others but every single draft, for the last 16 years, has produced mutliple star players. That's gotta be impressive.

 

[ap3lovr]

I think it has more to do with hockey becoming a systemic game than anything else. Even superstars today are forced to play system based hockey, and will be penalized by the coaching staff for failing to play within the system. That has removed a lot of individual talent and changed the focus to team based. While individual talent can still overcome systemic hockey, they don't have as much freedom to play their game. Imagine Orr leading a rush on a Claude Julien coached team. The first time he turned it over he would be benched and forced to dump it out off the boards or made a D-D pass.

 

[biturbo19]

Probably because it's no longer the same GOAT game it was back in the Gretzky era. The game itself has become so much more about systems and execution, over transcendent talent. Hard to be a GOAT when you're just a slightly bigger cog in the same machine. Hockey used to be more like basketball in that an individual player could radically change the fate of a team. It's not that any more, and McDavey is the prime example of that.


I'd also suggest the GOAT football player was produced in the 2000 draft...so...that's beyond the scope of "a decade or so"...

 

[FourRings]

Because this is the only major sport that hasn't done all it could to increase scoring. Other than LeBron, I don't think there are 'GOAT' candidates in any of the other sports.