Analytically, yes he actually does. Trout's average WAR over his first 8 full seasons is 9.0 using BR's WAR. Babe Ruth's average WAR after 8 full seasons as a position player was 9.3.
Why is hockey the only sport not to produce a GOAT-calibre player in the last decade or so?
- Thread starter Maestro84
- Start date
Analytically, yes he actually does. Trout's average WAR over his first 8 full seasons is 9.0 using BR's WAR. Babe Ruth's average WAR after 8 full seasons as a position player was 9.3.
Panthaz89
Buffalo Sabres, Carolina Panthers fan
Because you can't dominate hockey just based on natural talent its mostly still skill based and even the top players only typically play 1/3rd of a game or 1/2(ish) if you are a defenseman. Nowadays every line at least has some degree of speed and skill there is an abundance of players who can at least skate very well compared to the old days.
Panthaz89
Buffalo Sabres, Carolina Panthers fan
the 500 different rules for protecting players especially QBs other than INTENTIONAL head hits are pretty ridiculous not too mention the refs favor certain QBs and look the other way when other QBs get blasted while the guys they favor get grazed and they give them a free 15 yards.
Trout is great, but goat? That seems to be pushing it. And he’s the only mlb player on your list
Nostalgia being paraded as a factual opinion on how good players are is in every sport. Unfortunately in hockey we have more of those people who seem incapable of understanding that maybe it's not a coincidence we haven't seen anyone at the level of the players who played in the easiest era in the history of all professional sports (70s-90s NHL).
Oil Spill
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Cool picture. Gretzky is still GOAT, Orr is top 3Gretzky, Gretzky, blah, blah, blah...
Future GOAT
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OppositeLocK
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I think Crosby was on pace to score 50 in 50 the way the he was playing before he was concussed. That was one of the most dominant players I had ever seen.
Soliloquy of a Dogge
I love you, Boots
Because the sport has a tiny talent pool compared to every other major professional sport.
Soliloquy of a Dogge
I love you, Boots
Tiger played golf at a much higher level during his peak than Jack ever did. Tiger is the GOAT.
LeBron's case for GOAT really isn't that much better than Crosby's.
Championships - Both have 3.
Scoring Titles - Crosby has 2, LeBron has 1.
MVP (Hart Trophy in the NHL): Crosby has 2, LeBron has 4.
Finals Record: Crosby has a winning record in the Finals (3 wins, 1 loss), LeBron has a losing record (3 wins, 6 losses).
Jordan has 6 titles (more than Gretzky), including two 3-peats, 10 scoring titles (same as Gretzky), 5 MVPs, 6 Finals MVPs, undefeated 6-0 in the Finals, highest PPG in NBA history (both regular season and playoffs), and a Defensive player of the year award to boot which is ridiculous given his scoring.
In basketball there's more individual hype which gullible younger kids get suckered into, which is why LeBron gets consideration, but really his career is not that much better than Crosby's. He is definitely by most objective standards far below Jordan, just as Crosby is to Gretzky.
Crosby would probably have another scoring title and MVP at least if it weren't for concussion problems.
Championships - Both have 3.
Scoring Titles - Crosby has 2, LeBron has 1.
MVP (Hart Trophy in the NHL): Crosby has 2, LeBron has 4.
Finals Record: Crosby has a winning record in the Finals (3 wins, 1 loss), LeBron has a losing record (3 wins, 6 losses).
Jordan has 6 titles (more than Gretzky), including two 3-peats, 10 scoring titles (same as Gretzky), 5 MVPs, 6 Finals MVPs, undefeated 6-0 in the Finals, highest PPG in NBA history (both regular season and playoffs), and a Defensive player of the year award to boot which is ridiculous given his scoring.
In basketball there's more individual hype which gullible younger kids get suckered into, which is why LeBron gets consideration, but really his career is not that much better than Crosby's. He is definitely by most objective standards far below Jordan, just as Crosby is to Gretzky.
Crosby would probably have another scoring title and MVP at least if it weren't for concussion problems.
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TheDawnOfANewTage
Dahlin, it’ll all be fine
- Dec 17, 2018
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Basketball- MJ is GOAT, Lebron is an athletic freak who set a new standard for what a player can be- but MJ's scoring impacted the game so much he remains GOAT.
NFL- No single GOAT, too many different eras and positions. Brady has had biggest impact, but it's tough judging based on growth of passing game and the importance of coaching/system.
Soccer- Simple game that allows for closer competition, Pele was GOAT and now Messi deserves consideration. Both transcended their competition on a similar level imo if you consider that the competition is maybe a bit tighter today in Messi's age. Game and professional leagues have grown, there's better training, etc.
Baseball- Trout is probably the most skilled, but Ruth put his competition to shame- I don't think we can just write him off because the game has grown more nuanced.
Racing- Too much parity
Tennis- Individual sport.
Golf- Same.
NHL- I think Gretzky's the proven best, Mario had the best skill set. Gretzky showed what ya could do with your noggin, Mario was the prototype for an NHL body. The game has evolved so much since then though that I think Crosby and McD are worlds better in terms of skill, but they don't dominate the league as much because the talent gap has shrunk. It's like the Model T vs. trying to be the best car today. (Note: I'm comparing 2019 McD vs. 1980s Gretzky and Mario, not sure what those guys would do with modern equipment and training).
In summary- I think OP's original take is debatable in the first place, and even if ya buy it- we're comparing apples and oranges here. Each sport differs in its history, growth, parity, player impact, etc, so that you really can't give a simple explanation outside of "NHL has more player parity now. Some other sports don't, or the game has changed in a way that suits their strengths (ie Brady)." Personally I love having a lot of 80 pt-100 pt players, better to have a league of talent then a couple guys who showcase would could be done if others were better.
NFL- No single GOAT, too many different eras and positions. Brady has had biggest impact, but it's tough judging based on growth of passing game and the importance of coaching/system.
Soccer- Simple game that allows for closer competition, Pele was GOAT and now Messi deserves consideration. Both transcended their competition on a similar level imo if you consider that the competition is maybe a bit tighter today in Messi's age. Game and professional leagues have grown, there's better training, etc.
Baseball- Trout is probably the most skilled, but Ruth put his competition to shame- I don't think we can just write him off because the game has grown more nuanced.
Racing- Too much parity
Tennis- Individual sport.
Golf- Same.
NHL- I think Gretzky's the proven best, Mario had the best skill set. Gretzky showed what ya could do with your noggin, Mario was the prototype for an NHL body. The game has evolved so much since then though that I think Crosby and McD are worlds better in terms of skill, but they don't dominate the league as much because the talent gap has shrunk. It's like the Model T vs. trying to be the best car today. (Note: I'm comparing 2019 McD vs. 1980s Gretzky and Mario, not sure what those guys would do with modern equipment and training).
In summary- I think OP's original take is debatable in the first place, and even if ya buy it- we're comparing apples and oranges here. Each sport differs in its history, growth, parity, player impact, etc, so that you really can't give a simple explanation outside of "NHL has more player parity now. Some other sports don't, or the game has changed in a way that suits their strengths (ie Brady)." Personally I love having a lot of 80 pt-100 pt players, better to have a league of talent then a couple guys who showcase would could be done if others were better.
Alwalys
Phu m.
- May 19, 2010
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No you cannot have 2+ GOATS at the same time, that makes them not the GOAT.
Orr was the GOAT in his time as was and still is Gretzky.
Don't be silly, there are many athletes more physically gifted than Lemieux, even relative to his peers. One such example is the wrestler Alexander Karelin. Don't have his numbers in front of me but I recall he didn't loose a single point in a bout in over ten years.
GeeoffBrown
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If scoring dropped so drastically in any of the other big North American sports, they would have made more drastic rule changes to bring scoring back up than the NHL has.
unknown33
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1) Other sports circumstances/rules changed that it promotes offense. The NHL is higher scoring than before the lockout, but still nothing compared to the 80s/early 90s
2) Team parity makes it harder for an individual player to dominate
3) A single forward is on the ice only 1/3 of the game, used to be more during Gretzky's time
4) Teams are in general more system and tactics based than ever and don't rely on individual quality to win games
5) Possible: Although Crosby/OV/Malkin are some of the best ever, they just aren't that much of an outlier talent wise as Gretzky or Lemieux
2) Team parity makes it harder for an individual player to dominate
3) A single forward is on the ice only 1/3 of the game, used to be more during Gretzky's time
4) Teams are in general more system and tactics based than ever and don't rely on individual quality to win games
5) Possible: Although Crosby/OV/Malkin are some of the best ever, they just aren't that much of an outlier talent wise as Gretzky or Lemieux
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Well I was under the impression we were talking about the major marketable sports of North America, poor wording on my part I guess. Regardless I don’t follow wrestling and I don’t know who that is.
Relative to his peers I don’t see another athlete that was as physically talented at his sport. Even someone like tiger didn’t have anywhere near the physical edge that Lemieux did. Jordan was amazing but statistically Lemieux has only one pear imo, Gretzky; so mix his immense talent with nearly unprecedented production and he’s on a level that others just didn’t achieve. If he’d been completely healthy I think he surpasses Gretzky’s career.
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Lolaimbot
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- Nov 20, 2016
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Honestly, Tom Brady is far from being the undisputable GOAT. As quarterbacks alone, both Manning and Montana have good claims at that title as well.
As for other sports, Bolt and Phelps have easily become the GOATs of their sport over the last 10-15 years, the tennis GOAT will be among the big 3 of Roger, Rafa and Novak, the football GOAT is Messi imo, and Tiger has a great claim at golf GOAT despite the major count.
Say Hey Kid
Bathory
50 goals in 50 games? When in the world was Crosby on pace for that?
Not sure if you were just being sarcastic or what...
I think saying someone like Crosby or McDavid - are among the GOAT caliber players/prospect is fine, if you're somewhat generous with the definition.
No they aren't as good as Gretzky - but as far as prospects they're among the best ever. I agree with the comparable someone drew in this thread between Crosby and Lebron (especially Crosby with no injuries - since the premise of this thread is more about producing a goat-caliber player, not necessarily that he accomplishes that level, with Crosby falling a bit shy of his full potential with injuries).
The difference is simply that to go from Lebron to Jordan is close'ish/can even be argued Lebron first.
To go from Crosby to Gretzky is a huge gap because of how good Gretzky was.
So hockey is producing all-world talents as much as others sports (even more?). Crosby/Ovechkin/McDavid. The difference is really more about how Gretzky > Jordan, he set the bar higher.
No they aren't as good as Gretzky - but as far as prospects they're among the best ever. I agree with the comparable someone drew in this thread between Crosby and Lebron (especially Crosby with no injuries - since the premise of this thread is more about producing a goat-caliber player, not necessarily that he accomplishes that level, with Crosby falling a bit shy of his full potential with injuries).
The difference is simply that to go from Lebron to Jordan is close'ish/can even be argued Lebron first.
To go from Crosby to Gretzky is a huge gap because of how good Gretzky was.
So hockey is producing all-world talents as much as others sports (even more?). Crosby/Ovechkin/McDavid. The difference is really more about how Gretzky > Jordan, he set the bar higher.
Per this link and this one, there are less registrated hockey players in the world than there are registrated soccer players in France, which is 4th on the list, wayy behind Germany. This is just for registrated players, it's just easier to play soccer (or Basketball) than ice-hockey because of the arena and equipment needed
The talent pool is too small in hockey and the sport isn't accessible for the lesser well-off. Because of this I'd say there's too much consanguinity in the sport. The amount of NHL players who are sons of past NHL players is just massive and an indication the sport isn't attainable enough for outsiders. A kid in the situation of Lebron James (raised in a one-parent family to a 16 years old) would not have existed in hockey. Same for a Ronaldinho, a Messi,a Drogba, a Pogba...
The formation of hockey players, in Canada at least, isn't that great to generate GOATs. In soccer, professional scouts watch young players when they're still kids playing in freely accessible soccer fields in the poorer neighborhoods. If they see a prodigy, they contact the parents and offer a free training (or a contract) for the kid. He will then proceed to later play for the club who trained him. Transfer money for the player if he breaks out justifies the local scouting the smaller teams do. This expands the pool of talent dramatically
The draft system, which I'm not arguing against as it has its merits, prevents this from happening. Why would a NHL team, which would be by 50 miles the best entity to train a young player into the best player possible, would spend a cent for this endeavour if said player will most likely play against them? This means the formation of young players is left to the parents and is prohibitive at high level. Later, the players will play for CHL teams and will spend 10 times more time in a bus going to games than actually playing them
If Leafs or Habs scouts roamed the local pee-wee and bantam leagues and could sign the rights of the players, we would probably have seen another Gretzky and another Lemieux
The current system allows a fantastic amount of parity in the NHL, but at the cost of a colossal loss of talent
Here's my hot take: during the time hockey has seen one Gretzkylike talent, soccer probably had 30. The difference in pools of players is just that big
The talent pool is too small in hockey and the sport isn't accessible for the lesser well-off. Because of this I'd say there's too much consanguinity in the sport. The amount of NHL players who are sons of past NHL players is just massive and an indication the sport isn't attainable enough for outsiders. A kid in the situation of Lebron James (raised in a one-parent family to a 16 years old) would not have existed in hockey. Same for a Ronaldinho, a Messi,a Drogba, a Pogba...
The formation of hockey players, in Canada at least, isn't that great to generate GOATs. In soccer, professional scouts watch young players when they're still kids playing in freely accessible soccer fields in the poorer neighborhoods. If they see a prodigy, they contact the parents and offer a free training (or a contract) for the kid. He will then proceed to later play for the club who trained him. Transfer money for the player if he breaks out justifies the local scouting the smaller teams do. This expands the pool of talent dramatically
The draft system, which I'm not arguing against as it has its merits, prevents this from happening. Why would a NHL team, which would be by 50 miles the best entity to train a young player into the best player possible, would spend a cent for this endeavour if said player will most likely play against them? This means the formation of young players is left to the parents and is prohibitive at high level. Later, the players will play for CHL teams and will spend 10 times more time in a bus going to games than actually playing them
If Leafs or Habs scouts roamed the local pee-wee and bantam leagues and could sign the rights of the players, we would probably have seen another Gretzky and another Lemieux
The current system allows a fantastic amount of parity in the NHL, but at the cost of a colossal loss of talent
Here's my hot take: during the time hockey has seen one Gretzkylike talent, soccer probably had 30. The difference in pools of players is just that big
Just Linda
Registered User
- Feb 24, 2018
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Unpopular opinion.
MMA had Fedor.
Boxing had Mayweather
Tennis had Federer and Williams
Golf had Tiger
Cycling had Armstrong
Running had Bolt
All one person sports.
Baseball has its pitchers, football has its quarterbacks.
Basketball is an exception, it is still a team sport but it's stars wins the games.
Hockey will never have the superstars of the other sports unless it's in net. No matter how unworldly McDavid becomes, he's only on the ice for half a game.
MMA had Fedor.
Boxing had Mayweather
Tennis had Federer and Williams
Golf had Tiger
Cycling had Armstrong
Running had Bolt
All one person sports.
Baseball has its pitchers, football has its quarterbacks.
Basketball is an exception, it is still a team sport but it's stars wins the games.
Hockey will never have the superstars of the other sports unless it's in net. No matter how unworldly McDavid becomes, he's only on the ice for half a game.
