Who's (more) responsible for this mess? (Poll included)

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EspenK

Registered User
Sep 25, 2011
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Draft position has a lot to do with it. Could have drafted several top 6 guys instead of Milano. Werenski (got it right this time) over Rantennen (needed a top 2 D at the time). Trading up for Carlsson could have yielded Aho. Oops! And of course somewhere he missed Brayden Point. Where I think his biggest fault lies is believing this team has/had the possibility of a deep Cup run and not trading for more picks thereby increasing his chances of a big hit.
 
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Double-Shift Lasse

Just post better
Dec 22, 2004
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We are the ONLY team in the NHL without a home grown first round pick in its top six. Period. All your other speculation does not change the fact that other teams use the draft to build up their offense. Jarmo has not done that. Period.

Jarmo doesn’t use the draft to build up the offense is a patently false statement. You’re falling victim to adding context where you don’t want there to be.

The fact the Jackets don’t have a first-round draft pick in their top 6 is not good but is only as instructive as the context that surrounds it.


Wayne Gretzky was undrafted.
 
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koteka

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Jan 1, 2017
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We traded a #4 overall for another #4 overall. One was a top 6 forward. One is one of the top defensemen in the league and anchored our defense for the past several years. Everyone thinks we won that trade.

We trade a #3 overall for a #2 overall. That #2 overall is in our top 6. So is another guy involved in that trade. (Maybe? What is our top 6?)

We traded a #27 overall for a guy who was in our top 6 and made the all star game and we traded that guy for a guy that is one of the best forwards in the game.

We traded a first rounder for Duchene, who was briefly in our top 6. I still think this was the right move.

You could make the argument that Jarmo is the only GM in the league with balls big enough to trade top assets for other top assets.

Milano was a miss, but that is on Milano. The kid had skills. He just seems like he’d rather be on the hockey version of the Harlem Globe Trotters instead of in the NHL. Rychel was a miss.

Wennberg was in our top 6 at times. We obviously made the decision to shed salary before the start of the season, between buying him out and trading Murray and Nuti.

Foudy and Chinakhov could still get there. Neither one was in the top half of the first round. Isac Lundestrom is the only forward picked in the first round after Foudy playing a big role on his team, and he plays for the Ducks. He has 8 points in 52 NHL games. Nobody picked after Chinakhov has played an NHL game.

We have also drafted some defensemen in the first round who are currently on the team.
 
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Cyclones Rock

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Jun 12, 2008
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Jarmo doesn’t use the draft to build up the offense is a patently false statement. You’re falling victim to adding context where you don’t want there to be.

The fact the Jackets don’t have a first-round draft pick in their top 6 is not good but is only as instructive as the context that surrounds it.


Wayne Gretzky was undrafted.

Only because he signed a WHA contract when he was 17. He would have gone first overall in the NHL draft and there isn't any doubt about that.
 

NickyFotiu

NYR 2024 Cup Champs!
Sep 29, 2011
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What I think is important, for context purposes, is that it explains why Torts has coached the way he has coached. Very little offensive talent to work with.
He coached the same way on a NYR team with good offensive talent. The year after Torts was fired the NYR opened up the offense. In NY it was called Torts 6 goalie system aka caveman hockey. Not having your own draft picks are not the problem if put in good trades (Sean Jones). Trades are not a bad thing if you upgrade (Laine and Ros) and then those players do not leave (Panarin)
 

The Jones Zone

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Nov 27, 2013
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My vote remains Jarmo due to his negotiation "skills"

too many stories of agents and players who don't care for his take it or else attitude

I do however believe the team needs a new voice next year behind the bench

Pro Athletes just naturally tune out a head coach after so long, and that time for Torts has come
 

MissADD

Registered User
Jun 21, 2018
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My vote remains Jarmo due to his negotiation "skills"

too many stories of agents and players who don't care for his take it or else attitude

I do however believe the team needs a new voice next year behind the bench

Pro Athletes just naturally tune out a head coach after so long, and that time for Torts has come

I do think Torts is gone after the season regardless of what happens the rest of the way. I have said it before, this off season will be the biggest and most important season for Jarmo. Needs to find a coach, needs to find a C and needs to get Laine and Jones signed. Hopefully he already has the wheels turning on a coach.
 

GoJackets1

Someday.
Aug 21, 2008
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I saw some debate on Jarmo's drafting capabilities and did some extensive searching to find a post/analysis I made about it back in 2019. Here it is verbatim, but the debate prompted a further curiosity, so I am going to make another post on it after I update the analysis to be more current. The conclusion that I came to was that, from 2013-2017 (5 drafts), Jarmo had the 2nd highest "hit rate" in the league in terms of finding NHL players via the draft. Only Anaheim was higher over that timeframe, with the caveat that Jarmo had 4 "hits" after the 2nd round (out of 11 total hits), whereas Anaheim only had 2 hits after the second round out of 10 total hits. Thats a pretty good track record. But as I said, I will update my post to see what a bit more time lands Jarmo in terms of drafting ability.

On this topic of whether or not Jarmo is the draft wizard he claims to be, I did some research. For purposes of this research, I’m defining NHL players to be either players slated to play a full season for a team this year, or have 100+ GP in the NHL since they were drafted. I’m also only going to count draft years 2013-2017, because that’s really what would create an accurate sample size as it’s too soon to judge either 2018 or 2019.
In the period of 2013-2017:
Jarmo has drafted the following players with 100+ GP in the NHL:
  • Wennberg
  • Dano
  • Bjorkstrand
  • Milano
  • Werenski
  • Nutivaara
  • PLD
In addition, he has drafted the following players slated to play a full season with the team this year:
  • Gavrikov
  • Texier
  • Bemstrom
  • Elvis
There is also these guys playing NHL games for other teams this year, but for the purpose of this analysis I won’t count them because it’s still somewhat presumptuous that they will be NHL players:
  • Abramov
  • Davidsson
Players who still look to have NHL potential drafted in this timeframe:
  • Peeke
  • Tarasov
  • Stenlund
  • Carlsson
In a 5 year span, Jarmo has found players already in the NHL on 11/36 picks, and debatable NHL players on 6/36 picks. I’m willing to only count the 11 current NHL players for this, but that’s anywhere from 11-17 NHL players out of 36 draft picks.
How many other GM’s have a 31%-47% success rate in finding NHL players in that timeframe?
ANH: 10/28
ARI: 9/38
BOS: 8/33
BUF: 9/42
CAL: 7/33
CAR: 9/37
CHI: 7/42
COL: 5/35
DAL: 8/36
DET: 9/39
EDM: 8/38
FLA: 9/34
LAK: 8/34
MIN: 5/32
MTL: 9/32
NSH: 6/38
NJD: 9/37
NYI: 7/32
NYR: 5/32
OTT: 7/29
PHI: 8/40
PIT: 5/27
SJS: 6/35
STL: 7/34
TBL: 8/39
TOR: 9/38
VAN: 9/35
WSH: 6/27
WPG: 9/39
Based on the criteria I set up, only Anaheim has a better track record of finding NHL players through the draft in that time period than Jarmo does, in terms of % hit. The only caveat there is 2/10 of those Ducks players were taken beyond the first two rounds of the draft, whereas 4/11 of CBJ guys were taken 3rd round or later. That track record should speak for itself. I'd also be happy to go through and see how many NHL players each team has drafted from 3rd round and beyond in that timeframe. That's not even counting Vehvilainen and TFW from 2018 either. So yeah, I'm not super convinced that Jarmo isn't at the very least an extremely above average GM when it comes to drafting.

Edit: Thanks for moving this, whoever did it lol
 
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DarkandStormy

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Apr 29, 2014
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Jarmo has drafted the following players with 100+ GP in the NHL:
  • Wennberg
  • Dano
  • Bjorkstrand
  • Milano
  • Werenski
  • Nutivaara
  • PLD
In addition, he has drafted the following players slated to play a full season with the team this year:
  • Gavrikov
  • Texier
  • Bemstrom
  • Elvis
Wennberg - bought out (a better pick here would have been Nikita Zadorov)
Dano - played 35 games here in his first stint, 3 in his second, and is now out of the league.
Bjorkstrand - hit
Milano - bust, traded for 8 games of Devin Shore, the next six picks after Milano have all played 200+ NHL games, to say nothing of David Pastrnak at 25.
Werenski - hit, yes (but are we sure Mikko Rantanen - taken at #10 - isn't the better player?)
Nutivaara - traded for an ECHLer
PLD - whined his way out of town

Gavrikov & Elvis - yes, sure
Texier & Bemstrom - Jarmo appears to have overhyped them at this point
 

Monk

Registered User
Feb 5, 2008
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Wennberg - bought out (a better pick here would have been Nikita Zadorov)
Dano - played 35 games here in his first stint, 3 in his second, and is now out of the league.
Bjorkstrand - hit
Milano - bust, traded for 8 games of Devin Shore, the next six picks after Milano have all played 200+ NHL games, to say nothing of David Pastrnak at 25.
Werenski - hit, yes (but are we sure Mikko Rantanen - taken at #10 - isn't the better player?)
Nutivaara - traded for an ECHLer
PLD - whined his way out of town

Gavrikov & Elvis - yes, sure
Texier & Bemstrom - Jarmo appears to have overhyped them at this point

Can't we do the "But look at the guy taken [insert #] picks AFTER him" thing for every GM in every draft? I don't know if that works as a counterargument for me.

I also wouldn't discount any NHL playing time given the crapshoot that is the draft. Dano had some value for us. Can't understand knocking the Werenski pick.. Nutivaara is an NHL player who got passed on the depth chart, PLD is very good.. I guess you got something with Milano, but that always seemed like a boom/bust pick to me. Not sure I'm following much of your logic here tbh.
 
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LoneFunyan

Proud of all the points
Nov 11, 2015
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Also context regarding PLD forcing Jarmo's hand is required for the assertion.

This gnaws at me - it's maybe the single biggest factor in deciding who is responsible, and we have no idea what the answer is.

It's important beyond just the "blame game" because if it turned out, for example, that Jarmo went into Hulk-mode when PLD said "I don't want to play for Torts", that starts to "prove" a level of mismanagement that should get him canned. But we don't know, and I wonder if anyone does above Jarmo.
 

EDM

Registered User
Mar 8, 2008
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Wennberg + Rychel + Dano + Milano + Foudy + 2 first round picks traded = a losing team without a Torts who can construct a defense out of garbage.
 

EDM

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Mar 8, 2008
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Add whatever “context” you want, that equation says it all. You cannot take 10 first round picks to find oneTop Six forward and expect to compete in today’s NHL.
 

Double-Shift Lasse

Just post better
Dec 22, 2004
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Add whatever “context” you want, that equation says it all. You cannot take 10 first round picks to find oneTop Six forward and expect to compete in today’s NHL.

Lol you haven’t addressed a single piece of context because it doesn’t support your contention. It’s a nice way to live, I guess.
 
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GoJackets1

Someday.
Aug 21, 2008
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Wennberg - bought out (a better pick here would have been Nikita Zadorov)
Center was a massive need at the time. Not sure Zadorov is a better player. Also say what you will about Wennberg, but not a single player drafted below him has played more NHL games than him, and only Jake Guentzel has more points than him. Wennberg's career trajectory is certainly frustrating, but I'm personally willing to chalk it up to a couple of bullshit Tom Wilson hits, and somewhat Torts. Wennberg was easily one of the best picks possible at that position.

Dano - played 35 games here in his first stint, 3 in his second, and is now out of the league.
Dano played great for us and got traded, so any reason he didn't ultimately pan out wasn't due to CBJ. He was definitely a reach at the time, and didn't work out, but if you're going to complain about Nutivaara being traded for nothing, then you have to only feel positively about the fact that Dano (nothing) was the main piece in a trade for Saad. As an aside, only 25 players drafted after him (13%) have played more NHL games than him.

Milano - bust, traded for 8 games of Devin Shore, the next six picks after Milano have all played 200+ NHL games, to say nothing of David Pastrnak at 25.
Milano didn't turn out for us. Yes, this is a bad pick, but 8 picks in the 2014 1st round were an even worse value than Milano was. He still qualifies as a hit, even though we didn't get "the guy". Pastrnak is irrelevant. 2014 was undeniably Jarmo's worst draft, but it was a pretty shit draft in general.

Werenski - hit, yes (but are we sure Mikko Rantanen - taken at #10 - isn't the better player?)
This is where you lose me. Keep in mind, outside of McDavid and Eichel, the 3 players we were targeting were Hanifin, Provorov, and Werenski. Defense was a massive need this year, and it was addressed, via Werenski, in drafting a top pair, 20 goal scoring defenseman. Give me a f***ing break about Rantanen.

Nutivaara - traded for an ECHLer
Okay? And what does this have to do with Jarmo's drafting ability? Nutivaara is as big of a hit as it gets.

PLD - whined his way out of town
The PLD pick is only a positive in regards to Jarmo's drafting ability. He picked against the consensus #3 player, was laughed at by other GMs for it, and ended up looking like a genius. Then he turned PLD into the guy picked one spot ahead of him, and another first round pick. But, none of that matters. PLD was a tremendous pick.

Texier & Bemstrom - Jarmo appears to have overhyped them at this point
Texier is a surefire NHL player. Jarmo traded a non-NHL prospect (Kolesar) for the pick to take Texier. Basically a bust 3rd rounder for Texier straight up. Jarmo "reached" to take Texier, but only two players in the entire draft after him have more points than he does, and only one player has more games played than him. Texier is a hit.

As for Bemstrom, only one player taken after him (Batherson) would have been a better pick at this point in time. Only he and Batherson are even NHL players from rounds 4-7 in this draft. Bemstrom was a great value pick. To say Bemstrom is a bad pick because Batherson was taken just after him, or because he's maybe not as good as Jarmo has claimed he would be, even though he's only 21, is BS.

Edit: Since others have mentioned Foudy, he's certainly a strange pick. He could still go either way, but in my mind his floor is a 3rd line speedster/elite PKer. Certainly not the type of player you want to take at #18, but keep in mind, it's still incredibly early. Only five players taken after Foudy in 2018 have more NHL games than him, and one of them has already gone back to Europe. Only 13 players taken after Foudy have any NHL games at all.

3 years from now come and knock Jarmo for this pick if it doesn't work out, but Foudy should not be able to be used against Jarmo right now.
 
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DarkandStormy

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Texier is 11-12-23 in his first 68 NHL games and, to me, looks lost at center when he's been played there (they drafted him to play center). I don't know that there's more there.

My point on Nuti is what good is finding diamonds in the rough if you just ship them out for nothing?

I'm not saying the team shouldn't have taken Werenski, just that if you're going by BPA...there was maybe another (better) player available.

2014 NHL Mock Draft: Projections for Top 30 Picks After 1st Round of Playoffs
This mock had us taking Pastrnak in 2014.

Jarmo's been fine drafting, but (some) people seem to think he's a drafting wizard. He's fine. Trading up to get Gabriel Carlsson was decried at the time in 2015 and it hasn't panned out well for him. After the 3rd round, it's all just darts at a board anyway. Outside of PLD, he hasn't had the chance to draft in the top 5 which is where you have a much higher chance of getting franchise-altering players.
 

GoJackets1

Someday.
Aug 21, 2008
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Texier is 11-12-23 in his first 68 NHL games and, to me, looks lost at center when he's been played there (they drafted him to play center). I don't know that there's more there.

My point on Nuti is what good is finding diamonds in the rough if you just ship them out for nothing?

I'm not saying the team shouldn't have taken Werenski, just that if you're going by BPA...there was maybe another (better) player available.

2014 NHL Mock Draft: Projections for Top 30 Picks After 1st Round of Playoffs
This mock had us taking Pastrnak in 2014.

Jarmo's been fine drafting, but (some) people seem to think he's a drafting wizard. He's fine. Trading up to get Gabriel Carlsson was decried at the time in 2015 and it hasn't panned out well for him. After the 3rd round, it's all just darts at a board anyway. Outside of PLD, he hasn't had the chance to draft in the top 5 which is where you have a much higher chance of getting franchise-altering players.
Just because Texier may not be a center does not mean that he was a bad pick. I personally am a huge Texier fan, and I think at this point it should be noted by everyone that he plays vastly better when he plays with good players. So yeah, he may not get there as long as he's being saddled with Nash, Robinson, Bemstrom, etc. He's fine as a winger and looks good when he plays with guys like Bjorkstrand. And again, only two players in the entire draft after him have more points than he does, and only one player has more games played than him.

As for Nuti, no matter what ultimately happened with him, getting 256 games out of a 7th round pick is tremendous value.

I guess my question is how you qualify a GM as a "drafting wizard" if Jarmo isn't one. I just illustrated that for his first 5 years as a GM, he's been better at finding NHL players via the draft than any other team in the league except for one. Misses on guys like Pastrnak notwithstanding, because whenever Jarmo doesn't take a guy that ends up a star, 29-30 other teams don't take that guy either. Which is why simply finding NHL talent in the draft is both an extremely important and extremely difficult thing to do.
 

GoJackets1

Someday.
Aug 21, 2008
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Okay, well, not sure who cares at this point, but here is the updated analysis I said I would make:

I’m defining NHL players to be either players currently playing full time for a team this year (min 18 games this season), or have 100+ GP in the NHL since they were drafted. I’m also only going to count draft years 2013-2018, because that’s really what would create an accurate sample size as it’s too soon to judge 2019.
In the period of 2013-2018:
Jarmo has drafted the following players with 100+ GP in the NHL, or are currently full time NHL players:
  • Wennberg
  • Dano
  • Bjorkstrand
  • Milano
  • Werenski
  • Nutivaara
  • PLD
  • Gavrikov
  • Texier
  • Bemstrom
  • Elvis
  • Stenlund
  • Kolesar (I’m shocked to see he is a full time player for Vegas)
Players who have played NHL games:
  • Peeke
  • Foudy
  • Carlsson
Players who still look to have NHL potential drafted in this timeframe:
  • Tarasov
  • Marchenko
  • TFW
In addition to the above, Vehvilainen has played an NHL game, but I don’t think he has NHL potential so I’m not going to count him.
In a 6 year span, Jarmo has found players already in the NHL on 13/42 picks, in addition to those other players that I am not counting for this analysis.
How many other GM’s have a 31% success rate in finding NHL players in that timeframe?

ANH: 11/35
ARI: 10/47
BOS: 10/38
BUF: 12/48
CAL: 9/38
CAR: 14/43
CHI: 9/50
COL: 6/43
DAL: 11/44
DET: 10/49
EDM: 9/43
FLA: 10/40
LAK: 8/41
MIN: 8/40
MTL: 11/43
NSH: 8/42
NJD: 11/43
NYI: 9/40
NYR: 7/42
OTT: 8/37
PHI: 10/48
PIT: 6/31
SJS: 9/40
STL: 9/40
TBL: 9/46
TOR: 10/47
VAN: 10/41
WSH: 7/34
WPG: 9/45

Based on that criteria, only Carolina has a better track record of finding NHL players through the draft in that time period than Jarmo does, in terms of % hit. We are now essentially tied with Anaheim. Those 3 teams are the only teams above 30% hit rate. The next highest is Boston at 26%, and the rest are at ~25% or lower.
Between those top 3 teams, Carolina has found 4 NHL players after the 2nd round of the draft (out of 30 post rd 2 picks), Anaheim has found 2 (out of 22), and we have found 6 (out of 27). Jarmo is easily one of the best drafting GMs in the business.
 

CBJx614

Registered User
May 25, 2012
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Im skipping my vote until next year. It's hard to judge any sports franchise right now. We're going through a once in a lifetime event that completely put a wrench in everyone's plans. I have a feeling Domi/Laine and the rest of the young guys who are newer to the team play a little different after a proper off-season and training camp together.

Like others have mentioned with so many new pieces into the lineup, compounded with the pandemic I'm not putting blame on anyone.
 

EspenK

Registered User
Sep 25, 2011
15,631
4,192
Perhaps Jarmo finds lots of NHL talent because the rest of the roster is not so good?
 
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