Who's (more) responsible for this mess? (Poll included)

[JacketsDavid]

This is why I don’t buy that the team is this bad. I mean, they are now due to the injuries and trades and whatnot, but when healthy I don’t think the roster is as bad as our record.

I agree.
Problem is I don't think the team was nearly as good as most hoped for over the last couple of years (Panarin/Duchene/Jones/Bob was different) but most years Torts found a way to get a lot out of the teams.
So that is the rub. Yes team has underachieved this year (badly) but prior years I think for the talent we had we got about as far as we could.

So that is the ultimate question of rebuild or reload?
I think it's silly to call it reloading. Reloading to a what a #8 seed in the East? The thing is with a flat cap and teams cutting salaries maybe it is an opportunity to reload quickly? Now ownership has to be on board with spending money and draft capital.
Now I'm not excited about a long rebuild, but it could lead to something bigger and better.

 

[majormajor]

44 regressed. .

Everyone's saying it but I'm not buying it. Gavrikov is the same middle pair D to me. Savard regressed and dragged down their combined numbers. The Gavrikov - Jones results were positive.

A lot of it goes back to Nick Folignos interview this past week on Torts. Keep in mind that Nick is the ideal Torts player, not a ton of skill , but with hard work can be productive . Anyway , he had good things to say about Torts overall , but he said the first year under him he played terrible , didn’t produce . Then you look at Bjorkstrand , Torts came in , made him his project , neutered his game for 1.5 yrs , but then Bjork came out the other side , a more complete player . With Domi , Ros, Laine , all being new , it appears that Domi and Laine are struggling like Nick and Bjork did under Torts . Ros is producing , but has been benched , called out in media . My point is , As negative as I am on Torts, he does make it a point to make the player play a much more complete game . Problem is , his methods / approach , whatever it is , usually severely affects their production for a long period before they get up to speed . With all the new faces , you can see why we are struggling so badly

Without endorsing your whole jeremiad I must say I've had the same thought. Playing for Torts has often required an adjustment period.

.

Older players might be tiring of Torts. Younger players might not understand Torts.

People might be mad at Jarmo over money. Not just negotiations. I’d be pissed if I was moved to the taxi squad on an off day just so the team could save money at my expense. They don’t need the cap space saved from such a move.

I think the vets never quit on Torts, they just had too many new guys not understanding and perhaps some tenured guys unwilling to play the extreme team focused game, and "if they're not doing it why should I?"

I doubt there's actually that much anger over money issues.

Anderson wanting out was on Jarmo and his negotiating. It seemed like a fair swap with Domi and especially getting him signed. But still overall a good move despite the fact that Anderson wanted out.

Anderson did not "want out", that's an important thing that we should get straight. They almost signed him, Jarmo just didn't want to give him that contract.

Finally, I said in another thread, I'll say it again: if you had a long term plan to destablize a franchise, a plan you took years to formulate and develop, you probably couldn't do better than what PLD managed. It was because of him that we gutted our D depth by giving away Murray and Nuti and it was because we had him that Wennberg became expendable. I'm also of a mind that Jarmo viewed Anderson via a lens of "we have enough talent on the forward side so he's a luxury" because PLD was in the mix (this is rank speculation on my part of course). Imagine PLD demands a trade in the offseason instead of forcing his way out in-season.

Would we have worked harder to keep Anderson? Could be.
Would Murray be a welcome stabilizer to the D corp? Could be.
Would Nuti be a good 6th D and capable of playing up in the lineup when it's clear Savard is flagging and Gav is struggling? Could be.
Would we keep Wennberg and maybe still try to acquire Laine for PLD, thus giving Laine a chance to play with pass-first Wennberg? Could be.

PLD's timing was near perfect to create the worst possible outcome.

It was certainly devastating but I will quibble with some of this:

- We likely would have parted with at least one of Murray and Nuti anyways, the cap would be tight. They had a combined hit north of $7m for two guys that play the same number of games as one player and at the time weren't in our top 4.

- Nuti wouldn't play ahead of Gavrikov, he's just not as good.

- If Jarmo thought we were in even more dire need of a center, he'd be more likely to trade Anderson for Domi.

- Wennberg's buyout terms were very favorable. I think he still gets bought out.

- The biggest factor is that it all went down after free agency and the best trade window. There was no opportunity for jarmo to fix the mess.

 

[Krispy]

As if Torts built this team.

 

[majormajor]

.

I honestly think not signing Anderson long term may have been the beginning of it. What he brings and what Domi brings is completely opposite. He was pretty tight with guys in the room and him leaving left a big hole. I wouldn't be surprised if things were said in negotiations that may have found its way to PLD that may have changed his mind about being here. Then it was just a domino effect from there. This is speculation on my part, and I didn't complain at the time it went down with Josh, but as the season wore on, it just made me wonder if the Anderson trade set it all off.

Andy gave jarmo plenty of time to work on a deal and they ended up $250k apart. It had nothing to do with that.

My best theory is that PLD thought his offensive potential was being wasted in Columbus with the hyper defensive workmanlike system (that was not fun for him). He made that complaint in a presser at the start of the year. He has been legit bad for Winnipeg in many games lately, like he thought he could just go play pond hockey and become some offensive star.

Blame Torts.

If you bring in guys who play terribly and then improve elsewhere you obviously acquired guys who could do it. Wennberg now looks like a bona fuse middle six players and Duclair is racking up enough points to have been the forth highest scorer on the Jackets if he played for us.

Furthermore, Laine is talked about as a potential elite scorer (think sugar free Ovechkin) and Domi has a 70 point season yet they now both suck.

Jarmo has gone out and got decent offensive players, he traded away guys who didn’t want to be here for pretty good returns on paper, won the trade deadline by selling high and even swapped a third string goalie in the AHL for a legitimate NHL defenseman.

Wenny is the same solid 3C as before. Nice little scoring boost from playing with Huby.

Duclair though, that one really stings. Great player that just needed a tiny bit more patience.

 

[puckie]

I think both GM and coach's fault.

Torts too stuck in his system or the highway and does not adapt his system to the players he has. Good coaches create their system around the players they have.

GM - acquiring players that do not fit his coach or the coach's system.

Why Laine is carrying the puck up and backing up D when they drop in mystifies me.

High slot is almost always open for a shot for opposing offenses. If I was an opposing coach, I would work that so hard. They collapse way too far down.

 

[Byrral]

Very different circumstances now from the original voting timeframe. But the answer is no different. The answer is both but I didn't have that option.

Torts doesn't get the blame for the state of the current roster. He's been a good coach, even trying to coach this mess, but his time is up.

The roster is Jarmos fault. The only things I can say positive is that he has accumulated a few quality assets, the cap structure is stable to sign the players they want to keep around (if they can keep them) and Bjorkstrand is signed long term at a decent rate.

This summer is so important. Is Jarmo the guy you want to manage this important time?

 

[CalBuckeyeRob]

I think they have both had enough time and should be replaced. Torts seems to always have his shelf life expire for getting the necessary buy-in. They need a fresh face in charge that can make Columbus a fun place to play. I am tired of Jarmo's negotiating tactics that seem too heavy-handed. Reboot it.

 

[Halberdier]

As if Torts built this team.

He didn't.

But he coaches the team that has absolutely zero idea what to do after they gain the offensive zone.

Also at some point of the season he coached a team that had no idea how to get the puck from d-zone to o-zone without hopelessly just throwing the puck away. That got cured to some degree, and Torts should be thanked for that.

However, with the first being true with total lack of offensive play structure, and is totally on Torts, we can blame him to not get the potential out of the team for this very season.

With the current talent you can't expect much, but Torts has coached the team to be even worse that it should be, this very season.

PLD leaving was unexpected force majeure and forced CBJ to kind of rebuild. Hopefully the 3 1st round picks (even if 2 of them are late 1st round picks and therefore totally different value than like TOP-10 picks) will help CBJ with that partial rebuild. There is still a lot of foundation to build on, but you cannot run on Torts legacy anymore. Either Torts has to figure out how the team can be successful on the offensive zone or he needs to go. Right now he is a perfect fit for a team that is tanking for lottery.

 

[EspenK]

Last year: playoff bubble team with the chance to maybe steal a series but not a championship contender.

Out: Josh Anderson, Pierre-Luc Dubois

In: Max Domi, Patrik Laine, Jack Roslovic

This year: worst team in the league and a lottery club and probably facing years of suckitude

Out: Nutivaara, Murray, Wennberg, Nyquist
Also In: Koivu for, what, 7 games?

I think the Outs far outweigh the Ins. The Ins have actually been subtractions by addition.
Basically the chemistry of the team was significantly altered.

Imo Anderson would still be here if Jarmo hadn't played "I've got the hammer" and signed him to a reasonable extension the first time around. Acquiring Domi for him seemed reasonable but he was on a downward track and again Jarmo should have been aware of his deficiencies from the defensive side.

PLD, who knows why he left, but his departure created a major gap at C, not only now but for the foreseeable future. Laine seemed like a good return at the time of the trade but in retrospect you have to wonder if Jarmo should have know (or at least suspected) from scouting reports (if he had any) that Laine just might not be a Torts player.

Majority of "blame" to Jarmo for the above.

Torts' line-o-matic didn't help anything in trying to achieve some sort of chemistry between linemates.

Lack of organizational depth definitely didn't help in trying to salvage the season. Blame solely on Jarmo for this.

The future? I'm in the years of suckitude camp. Maybe a new coach and hopefully some help from trading Domi and possibly Laine will buy some time until the Russian contingent arrives. And then lets hope those guys aren't rushed into service before they are ready a la Tex & Bemstrom.

I'm not a big fan of Torts' brand of hockey but to me the majority of the blame for the state of the Jackets is solely on Jarmo. And just imagine how badly he would be viewed if the Blackhawks hadn't gifted the jackets with two years of Panarin.

 

[Nanabijou]

I won't add more to the blame question here (I voted neither), but looking ahead, it will be an important offseason for Jarmo. And yes, I would give him this offseason to retool and see what he can do. I appreciate Torts for everything he's done for the organization, but I would bring in a new coach for next year.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Problem is I don't think the team was nearly as good as most hoped for over the last couple of years (Panarin/Duchene/Jones/Bob was different) but most years Torts found a way to get a lot out of the teams.
So that is the rub. Yes team has underachieved this year (badly) but prior years I think for the talent we had we got about as far as we could.

So that is the ultimate question of rebuild or reload?
I think it's silly to call it reloading. Reloading to a what a #8 seed in the East? The thing is with a flat cap and teams cutting salaries maybe it is an opportunity to reload quickly? Now ownership has to be on board with spending money and draft capital.
Now I'm not excited about a long rebuild, but it could lead to something bigger and better.

Pretty much how I view it-the CBJ have been firing on all cylinders for years-which is a testament to very good coaching. There is one component that I'll add and that is the should-have-been- expected declining performance of veterans by Kekalainen. The CBJ have performed (with the exception of Domi and Laine) about like they should have this season-poorly.

What I think that people tend to forget are that hockey players are often in decline in performance and that decline is generally moderate and not extreme but it is inevitable and usually predictable. Fans are allowed to forget this; General Managers aren't.

Foligno, Savard and Atkinson were all on the downside of their careers entering the season. Jenner may have peaked in overall effectiveness as well. Arguably there were 4 major pieces of the team who could have been reasonably expected to fall off. Seth Jones' stats are giving every indication that he had his peak performance a few years ago. He's logged a ton of minutes over his CBJ career and that probably precipitated some drop off in his play.

Add in that Bjorkstand hasn't improved (his play is fine and couldn't have been expected to get better) and that guys like Texier and Stenlund both didn't improve and that Bemstrom got worse and it's pretty clear that the roster should have been expected to decline fairly sharply this year in its overall performance.

This isn't even taking account the sub par performances by Laine, Domi and Korpisalo-which couldn't have been predicted or the RFA losses of Anderson and PLD which are completely due to Jarmo's ineptitude. Ineptitude is a great word.

This is a bad roster in need of a full remake by a different manager. Jarmo Kekalainen has allowed many key components of a roster to reach their predictable declining stages and his newer players have almost universally been duds. This mess-and the next several seasons of likely poor play-are on him and him alone.

 

[Crede777]

The puck stops with Jarmo since he's the GM.

We can't really judge what is going on with regards to Torts since we aren't privy to the locker room conversations and strategies. From what we can see, he hasn't ingratiated himself with the younger/newer players and constantly shuffles lines thereby disrupting chemistry. At the end of the day, however, he is being asked to coach a team that is completely lacking in centers. That's like being asked to coach an NFL team without a quarterback. Torts may have run his course with the Jackets, but it's hard to fault him for the results of this season.

With Jarmo, in order to be a successful GM, he needs to produce wins. The past 5 years have been the best in Jackets history but it isn't enough. Being a successful GM requires both talent and a fair bit of luck. The GM must be excellent at identifying talent (players and coaches) and then finding a way to acquire and foster said talent. He has been quite good at identifying and acquiring talent on defense and in goal but his ability to acquire offensive talent - particularly at center - is what really hampers the team. Further, I can't really fault his cap space management. Luck also plays a role in terms of draft lotteries, injuries, and the sheer unpredictability of player attitudes / desires.

Jarmo's job right now is to do three things:

1. Grow and retain the current talent that is on the team. A GM can't hand out sweetheart deals to players as that quickly lands the team in cap hell and ultimately hampers overall competitiveness. So what Jarmo needs to do is figure out how to attract and keep key talent in Columbus at a reasonable price. Again, that's a mixture of talent (identifying talent, negotiations, sales pitch, etc.) and luck (players deciding for themselves that they are willing to stay). Even if they land a top center through the draft, I have a hard time thinking that Jarmo is going to throw that center to the wolves rather than try to inject a veteran top-6 guy to take some of the heat. Then again, he didn't exactly shelter Wennberg or PLD so who knows?

2. Replace Torts with a quality coach. The last time the Jackets replaced a hall of fame coach, they went from Hitchcock to Scott Arniel. Jarmo needs to avoid this at all costs. If Edmonton and Buffalo have taught us anything, it's that a poor coach can kill a team no matter how much young talent it has. Again, this is a mixture of talent and luck. Jarmo has to be able to identify good coaches and then get lucky (more or less) in selecting one who actually pans out.

3. Avoid getting stuck in the middle of the league. If you're going to be good - be good but if you're going to be bad - then be bad. I think Jarmo correctly identified this in his recent appearance on the 2 Man Advantage podcast when he said that the worst thing in a season is to finish one point out of the playoffs.

In summary, some may point to the trade deadline before Panarin and Bob left as a "told ya so" moment. I disagree and still believe that going for it was the correct call. Ultimately, that team came up short and it became clear that the Jackets as assembled weren't Cup Contenders. So maybe bottoming out is for the good in the long term. But it falls on Jarmo to make sure that the team comes out better for this instead of getting trapped at the bottom.

 

[EspenK]

The puck stops with Jarmo since he's the GM.




Jarmo's job right now is to do three things:

Even if they land a top center through the draft, I have a hard time thinking that Jarmo is going to throw that center to the wolves rather than try to inject a veteran top-6 guy to take some of the heat. Then again, he didn't exactly shelter Wennberg or PLD so who knows?

Kind of like he did with Tex & Bemstrom...

 

[KallioWeHardlyKnewYe]

Torts cuz he thwarts.
Not Jarmo who does no harmo.

 

[Krispy]

He didn't.

But he coaches the team that has absolutely zero idea what to do after they gain the offensive zone.

Also at some point of the season he coached a team that had no idea how to get the puck from d-zone to o-zone without hopelessly just throwing the puck away. That got cured to some degree, and Torts should be thanked for that.

However, with the first being true with total lack of offensive play structure, and is totally on Torts, we can blame him to not get the potential out of the team for this very season.

With the current talent you can't expect much, but Torts has coached the team to be even worse that it should be, this very season.

PLD leaving was unexpected force majeure and forced CBJ to kind of rebuild. Hopefully the 3 1st round picks (even if 2 of them are late 1st round picks and therefore totally different value than like TOP-10 picks) will help CBJ with that partial rebuild. There is still a lot of foundation to build on, but you cannot run on Torts legacy anymore. Either Torts has to figure out how the team can be successful on the offensive zone or he needs to go. Right now he is a perfect fit for a team that is tanking for lottery.

I just think you can't make fish climb a tree.

 

[majormajor]

I just think you can't make fish climb a tree.

When players like Seth Jones have league-worst analytics that tells me that the team is greatly underperforming it's talent level. Several other guys far below their career norms.

 

[Mayor Bee]

Four years ago, we were all looking at the expansion draft with dread, knowing that this team was going to lose someone who would be difficult to replace from a group of five of six.

Today, four years later, the worst-case scenario would involve losing one of Eric Robinson or Dean Kukan.

And outside of Elvis and Texier, there is not a single established roster player who is expansion-exempt.

This team has hemorrhaged NHL talent, has not replaced it, and what we see on the ice is the result.

 

[Viqsi]

Finally, I said in another thread, I'll say it again: if you had a long term plan to destablize a franchise, a plan you took years to formulate and develop, you probably couldn't do better than what PLD managed. It was because of him that we gutted our D depth by giving away Murray and Nuti and it was because we had him that Wennberg became expendable. I'm also of a mind that Jarmo viewed Anderson via a lens of "we have enough talent on the forward side so he's a luxury" because PLD was in the mix (this is rank speculation on my part of course). Imagine PLD demands a trade in the offseason instead of forcing his way out in-season.

Would we have worked harder to keep Anderson? Could be.
Would Murray be a welcome stabilizer to the D corp? Could be.
Would Nuti be a good 6th D and capable of playing up in the lineup when it's clear Savard is flagging and Gav is struggling? Could be.
Would we keep Wennberg and maybe still try to acquire Laine for PLD, thus giving Laine a chance to play with pass-first Wennberg? Could be.

PLD's timing was near perfect to create the worst possible outcome.

You get a cookie.

That right there is exactly why my vote is and will remain "Neither". There is exactly one man directly responsible for killing the 2020-2021 Columbus Blue Jackets season, and it's neither Torts nor Kekalainen.

 

[DJA]

You get a cookie.

That right there is exactly why my vote is and will remain "Neither". There is exactly one man directly responsible for killing the 2020-2021 Columbus Blue Jackets season, and it's neither Torts nor Kekalainen.

My problem with this view is that Jarmo should have “read the room” when PLD was known to actively be attempting to sign an offer sheet that would put us in a cap bind (which is supposedly why Jarmo panicked and sold Murray and Nuti for a couple bags of Chili Cheese Fritos). He definitely should have manned up and asked PLD what the f*** he was up to and if he was committed to the CBJ at that exact moment. This was in October so he would have had 3 months to find a trade he liked. Instead he let it fester until January when he was put into a spot and was forced into the Laine trade because it was pretty much the only one available and fell into his lap. This is why I’m concerned with him handling the Jones deal. I feel he’ll be stubborn enough to make Jones play next year here even if there’s no contract based on the idiotic belief that he could he change his mind which has failed miserably twice now (Panarin, PLD). PLD is forever a traitor but Jarmo is also to blame for this FUBAR season.

 

[Viqsi]

My problem with this view is that Jarmo should have “read the room” when PLD was known to actively be attempting to sign an offer sheet that would put us in a cap bind (which is supposedly why Jarmo panicked and sold Murray and Nuti for a couple bags of Chili Cheese Fritos). He definitely should have manned up and asked PLD what the f*** he was up to and if he was committed to the CBJ at that exact moment. This was in October so he would have had 3 months to find a trade he liked. Instead he let it fester until January when he was put into a spot and was forced into the Laine trade because it was pretty much the only one available and fell into his lap. This is why I’m concerned with him handling the Jones deal. I feel he’ll be stubborn enough to make Jones play next year here even if there’s no contract based on the idiotic belief that he could he change his mind which has failed miserably twice now (Panarin, PLD). PLD is forever a traitor but Jarmo is also to blame for this FUBAR season.

I kind of don't care. The one individual responsible for PLD's decisions is PLD. PLD's decisions are what screwed this team. One can argue that maybe Kekalaien should have tried handling it differently, but that's barely a quibble compared to what PLD did.

 

[Nikolajs Sillers]

Both.

 

[puckie]

I am guessing and just a guess PLD wanted out because he hated playing for Torts...just a guess

 

[Viqsi]

I am guessing and just a guess PLD wanted out because he hated playing for Torts...just a guess

Except that we've heard several times from several reputable sources (PLD and Torts included) that this was not the case.

 

[EspenK]

I just think you can't make fish climb a tree.

What about a Catfish?

 

[LoneFunyan]

My problem with this view is that Jarmo should have “read the room” when PLD was known to actively be attempting to sign an offer sheet that would put us in a cap bind (which is supposedly why Jarmo panicked and sold Murray and Nuti for a couple bags of Chili Cheese Fritos). He definitely should have manned up and asked PLD what the f*** he was up to and if he was committed to the CBJ at that exact moment. This was in October so he would have had 3 months to find a trade he liked. Instead he let it fester until January when he was put into a spot and was forced into the Laine trade because it was pretty much the only one available and fell into his lap. This is why I’m concerned with him handling the Jones deal. I feel he’ll be stubborn enough to make Jones play next year here even if there’s no contract based on the idiotic belief that he could he change his mind which has failed miserably twice now (Panarin, PLD). PLD is forever a traitor but Jarmo is also to blame for this FUBAR season.

I agree with this - while what PLD did was to throw the grenade into the dressing room, Jarmo clearly had his antenna up and was aware something was going on, or else he wouldn't have been worried about an offer sheet. The only small quibble I'd have is that we don't know that he didn't ask PLD and we don't know what PLD said if he did ask. So it's possible he asked, PLD said "I'm good" and that was that. But the movement of Murray and Nuti to protect against an offer sheet strongly suggests he didn't have confidence in PLD's alignment to the org.

The other issue is that Jarmo collapsed instantly when PLD pushed back. He essentially made it clear that the player DOES have the vaunted "hammer" if he's willing to take it far enough. If you decide you don't want to be here, you can basically stop playing and we'll trade you post haste. PLD appears to have gotten *exactly* what he wanted: a short term contract AND not having to play for the CBJ. I don't know how Jarmo should have handled it, and that's why I'm not the GM, but what I can say is that if I'm a player who doesn't want to be here, I've got a blueprint of how to make that happen.

I am pretty confident we'll move Jones if he won't sign, but you've got me thinking now because you are right: Jarmo always seems too optimistic in his view of how things will work and tends to act like he's playing with house money.