Who's (more) responsible for this mess? (Poll included)

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Gonna try something here.

Something's clearly amiss with this team. As I see it, you have a faulty roster but also the team is still underperforming its talent.

But... I left out probably the most obvious answer, and one that I'd probably gravitate to myself. I'd like to see if we can't have some good discussions on the merits of the roster and its utilization. To that end, I'm trying to force posters to pick one or the other - GM or HC - even if, in their mind, it's a 51-49 split, and say who's MORE to blame.

We're going to keep talking about the subject, but maybe we can frame it differently? I'm just kind of bored with how we're discussing it right now.

I did opt to include a third option. I'm open to the notion that the suck simply is what it is but might have everything to do with the weird season (still various virus-related protocols, lack of practice time, PLD forced their hand, etc.) and that what's happening isn't really anyone's fault. NOTE: This is not a fallback option for those that want to say "both." This is only an option if you genuinely feel no one is to blame.

Try to make your posts address both sides of the poll. Say why you assign blame where you do, and why you don't assign blame where you don't.

Click to read more...

 

[Bookker]

Why "Both" is not available if we can say "neither" ?
But very good question

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Why "Both" is not available if we can say "neither" ?

Tried to explain in the OP. The short answer is "that's too easy".

 

[CBJWerenski8]

Both. But I lean jarmo. He knows what Torts is best suited to coach and decided to get players like max Domi instead of keeping a guy perfect for the system in Anderson. I know you can’t have a lineup of grinders, but having zero isn’t an option.

 

[Monk]

Jarmo: I'm happy he went for it instead of throwing in the towel re: the Bob, Panarin, Duchene, etc situations. Gotta go for it sometimes, and that was the best shot we were gonna get for a while. I'm overall happy with his roster management - can quibble with some things of course, but a lot has transpired that was out of his control.

Torts: He's historically over achieved with the roster he's been dealt in Columbus - nearly unanimously perceived that way it seems. I'm unwilling to start blaming Torts now because of: the shortened season, the shortened camp/pre-season, the unusually large number of new faces in the lineup, and the COVID restrictions - in particular the inability to meet with players in person.

So I went with neither. I'm not a huge fan of the blame game in general, though.

 

[Monk]

Both. But I lean jarmo. He knows what Torts is best suited to coach and decided to get players like max Domi instead of keeping a guy perfect for the system in Anderson. I know you can’t have a lineup of grinders, but having zero isn’t an option.

EDIT again. I'm just going to respectfully retract my question. I get what your point is, I don't really agree with it, and that's that.

 

[KJ Dangler]

Absolutely Torts. A good coach adjust his scheme to fit the talent on his roster . Torts would rather impose his system on each player , in his mind thinking he’s making them a more complete player . Problem is , his defense first mentality , with no offensive game plan whatsoever, over than try to create a turnover and score from that , accounts for largely skilled players not remotely producing to their potential . Look no further than current situation , Laine pointless in 6 games , Domi pointless in 8 games , Texier pointless in 12 games , Foligno 2 points in last 8 games .

Bjorkstrand , the 2nd best goal scorer on team , with 3 goals the entire month of Feb(2 coming in 1 game )

Not to mention players that leave here and have instant success . Karlsson 40 g season as soon as he leaves here , Wennberg on pace for 20g in 82 game schedule .

Only area I can fault Jarmo is his smarter than everyone approach in drafting , and absolute embarrassing center depth in this organization

 

[JacketsDavid]

I voted Jarmo because he hired Torts.

I'm one of the old school guys who thinks you hire a certain coach to get the most out of your talent, establish systems.
Then you hire another guy when you have the right players and bring in a coach who can make the players happy while they take that next step.

This is Jarmo's team. He put it together. He has Torts who has until this season gotten pretty good results from the team he has had. But now the warts are showing, talented offensive guys don't like the system, guys may have even turned on Torts (again I don't know this for a fact, but it's happened to him in the past), and he (Jarmo) allowed Torts to escalate the PLD much too soon. Maybe a different situation if Torts had 3 years left on his contract.

 

[GoJackets1]

I think the lack of centers, which is only sort of caused by Jarmo, is obviously a problem. I also think the utilization of our players in terms of ice time, and refusal to adapt a system to the players you have, is also a problem.

I understand people saying that "Jarmo doesn't get Torts style players" and that is correct. But also, shouldn't it be the coach's job to play a system that extracts the most out of the players he's given?

As such, I blame Torts more, but Jarmo isn't totally blameless. Anderson for Domi being his primary offense. I don't think he can be faulted for the PLD situation, which obviously has a huge hand in the lack of centers issue. Either way, there's a clear miscommunication/gap between GM and coach in terms of type of personnel.

What I will say is that we would be positioned significantly worse for the future if Jarmo were to only draft/sign/acquire players that fit Torts' system, as opposed to acquiring players that are a good fit for the modern NHL, but a bad fit for a Torts team. Then we would be totally f***ed. But as I said, I think "being a bad fit for a Torts team" is a Torts problem because of a refusal to adapt a system to his personnel, or the current state of the league.

 

[Johansen2Foligno]

That's a tough one. I'm going to say neither. I think this current iteration of the team has run its course and that it is time to move in a different coaching direction. Sometimes you just need fresh air and novelty, and it's not because of anything negative or a large blunder. This roster will look much different in two years.

The biggest positive, in my mind, is that we embarrassed Tampa so badly that we deserve some credit for creating the juggernaut that they are going to be for the next decade.

 

[Monk]

That's a tough one. I'm going to say neither. I think this current iteration of the team has run its course and that it is time to move in a different coaching direction. Sometimes you just need fresh air and novelty, and it's not because of anything negative or a large blunder. This roster will look much different in two years.

The biggest positive, in my mind, is that we embarrassed Tampa so badly that we deserve some credit for creating the juggernaut that they are going to be for the next decade.

This exactly sums up my thoughts, especially the bold. I should just delete my earlier post and copy/paste yours.

 

[koteka]

I was looking at college basketball. The traditional powers that have huge roster turnover every year because they bring in such top level talent that leaves after one season (Duke, Kentucky, UNC, UCLA) have had down years. A veteran team in Gonzaga (only 1 freshman in top 8 players in minutes per game) is having a great season. Baylor’s scorers are all upper class men.

I think COVID has had a huge impact on new and young guys being incorporated into the blue bloods.

I see the same thing in hockey. (Florida being the exception which proves the rule.) Toronto has kept its core intact and added vets like Thornton. The Lightning are missing Kucherov but they have Stamkos and a bunch of guys who have been together for years.

So I vote neither. We are a young team with new key pieces. No preseason. No time to practice. Is it surprising we are struggling?

 

[rotsbu]

I forced myself to ignore the "neither" option and voted Torts...felt sleazy doing so BTW because I get the impression Torts is the kind of guy I'd run up a hill into enemy fire for.

My rationale: (a) this roster is a proverbial collection of misfits/they don't mesh together. I tend to think Jarmo made the best of a bad situation in getting Laine for PLD...let's not pretend this organization didn't wanted PLD around for a long time, and then Jarmo's hand got forced. Jarmo made the best deal he could under rough circumstances. The Domi-Anderson trade is looking worse and worse, but I agree it wise to not pay Josh the dollars for the term he wanted. So Jarmo gets passes here from me. (b) Even though the roster is this collection of misfits, the team doesn't seem to play with much (or any) fire a lot of the time, and the constant switching up of lines can't be helping (even if it's not hurting). Hard to wonder, therefore, if the team would at least look more consistent with a different coach in the room. So, I choose Torts.

 

[Columbus Jack]

It's Jarmo's fault.

It's his fault we still have a coach who is trying to play like it's 1996, Torts is just coaching the way he believe is best, he doesn't know any other way it's not going to change now. Oh and then to come out acting like this season is going to magically change, my god, can you be in any more denial of where this team is headed. Sure new faces, no preseason, guess what. It's game 20+ now, everyone is in the same boat, maybe the roster you put together just isn't that good. And to keep a coach who isn't even developing your only hopes for a serviceable top 6 center and instead turning Texier into Wennberg 2.0 is beyond idiotic.

The lack of utter talent on this roster along with literally zero high potential top 6 centers in the f***ing system is 100% on Jarmo. As someone alluded to before, this is his f***ing team and he's responsible for this shit storm.

The issue with Jarmo is that he actually believes he is smarter than everyone else, sometimes that pays off and sometimes well..we get a team that is made up like this.

I've honestly lost interest in this season, I've said it before, you can suck but don't be whatever the hell this team is. A mixture of boring as hell and utter lack of hope for the future.

 

[rotsbu]

PS this is an interesting thread/poll, and everyone's responses have been well thought-out!

 

[EspenK]

Jarmo. The Jackets have no bona fide top 6 C lest a 1C

The Jackets have no top line LW. Nyqvist but meh.

The pipeline is nonexistent save two Russians who may or may not be ready for the NHL in the next two years. I tuess Tarasov might pan out as maybe Foudy but no sure shot guys.

I don't believe he always obtains Torts like players in trades/drafting.

His part in "going for it all"

He seems to alienate RFA's which leads to discontentment. Anderson should have been extended longer term first time around.

Jones & Werenski both coming due for an extension in same year. Along with a lot of guys up for deals.

Not many guys extended into the future. Cam & Bjorkstrand - thats it. Provides flexibility but tough to pay everyone.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

I forced myself to ignore the "neither" option and voted Torts...felt sleazy doing so BTW because I get the impression Torts is the kind of guy I'd run up a hill into enemy fire for.

My rationale: (a) this roster is a proverbial collection of misfits/they don't mesh together. I tend to think Jarmo made the best of a bad situation in getting Laine for PLD...let's not pretend this organization didn't wanted PLD around for a long time, and then Jarmo's hand got forced. Jarmo made the best deal he could under rough circumstances. The Domi-Anderson trade is looking worse and worse, but I agree it wise to not pay Josh the dollars for the term he wanted. So Jarmo gets passes here from me. (b) Even though the roster is this collection of misfits, the team doesn't seem to play with much (or any) fire a lot of the time, and the constant switching up of lines can't be helping (even if it's not hurting). Hard to wonder, therefore, if the team would at least look more consistent with a different coach in the room. So, I choose Torts.

Serious and not sarcastic comment to follow.

Really appreciate your working through the thought process I'd hoped to get at with this thread.

EDIT: And this was before I saw your next post about it being an interesting thread LOL

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Jarmo. Hands down.

As has been cited by many, the lack of a #1C on this team is completely on him. He ran Johansen and PLD out of town. A 4th overall pick and a 3rd overall pick-the spots where 1Cs are found. And were found-even if they weren't elite.

Jarmo is an absolute moron-yes, moron- when it comes to dealing with RFAs. While many say Torts isn't up on the modern game (interesting how his team beat Tampa and Toronto in the past two years when it counted, isn't it for an alleged dinasour?) it's Jarmo who is in the absolute stone age when it comes to simple contract matters. He is stuck on stupid in his "the CBA gives us the leverage" strategy. While I'm not a fan of the boy GM in Toronto, he at least gets that these high end RFAs are going to likely be his best players while under RFA contracts and isn't scared to compensate them appropriately. He recognizes that the old school"vets get the most money" is seeped in a stale and dated trade union/managment mentality. Hockey players peak as a rule as RFAs andnot as UFAs. Jarmo doesn't have a grip on this after 15 years in NHL management. He ran off Anderson and got us Domi due to his pigheadedness with RFAs.

His trades for Duchene and Dzingle will cost the team for years. A first rounder and 2 second rounders for players who were not essential in beating Tampa.

I think Jarmo has a deep desire to build the best NHL team with the least amount of North American players. 10 of his last 12 draft picks (top 3 picked in the past 4 drafts) have been from overseas. His euro-centric focus is not paying dividends. In any case, his mediocrity in drafting should be enough to show him the door independent of my stated view on his player preferences. Take a look at the link-it's not pretty.

Columbus Blue Jackets Draft History at hockeydb.com

His trading acumen is far overrated, but this post is way too long already.

Torts drives me nuts with his overplaying of vets (Foligno in particular-and I love #71) and his perpetual line blending, but this year line blending should be expected given the putrid center corps that his overrated GM provided him.

 

[Monstershockey]

I give Jarmo more of the blame. He knew he wasn't extending Torts and he should have moved on. Keeping Torts on the cheap has pretty much screwed up everything. Players don't seem to care, and I can hear it in Torts' press conferences that he doesn't have the same edge he had in previous seasons. He sounds defeated most of the time. Jarmo should have bit the bullet and got a new coach in for this year and started moving in another direction. We weren't going anywhere this year anyway.

 

[LoneFunyan]

I can't think of a time in the past where the present AND future were as bleak as they are right now. The product on the ice is terrible and there's no one in the pipeline to be excited about. The two most recent trades we made were done under duress and saw us giving up the best player in each, and we have two more high-end talents in Jones and Werenski, who may end up doing the same.

Torts isn't getting the most from the players he's got and Jones has taken a concerning step or two backward. For the love of God, put some guys together and see if they can develop chemistry over a span of games. This is a team that needs to gel, and his line-juggling never allows that to happen. So he's not blameless.

But looking over the org as a whole - what we have today and what we can expect tomorrow, I'd say this is Doug MacLean era level of suck and desperation, maybe worse because we don't have 'well, we're a young organization' to fall back on. Something is problematic at the center of the org. It's Jarmo's fault.

 

[domi28]

I'd put the blame at about 60% Jarmo and 40% Torts.

I see in Jarmo someone who has taken a borderline playoff team when he was hired and in 8 years built a more talented borderline playoff team. The problem with this is the talent level in the league as a whole has risen by quite a bit in the past 8 years. He's done a great job when compared to the previous CBJ GMs but he's average at best when compared to the other league GMs. Yes he has had some late round hits in Nuti and Gavy but he's below average on the amount of guys that he has hit on when his entire draft record is looked at. His trade record is above average but he has been terrible at retaining UFAs. Yes an argument can be made for circumstances beyond his control in some UFA cases but those are still guys that left on his watch. I would put him in the 10-20 range when ranking NHL GMs which just isn't good enough.

I see in Torts someone who was a good hire at the time but he's stuck in his low event double down on defense style while the rest of the league has moved to a more wide open offense first game. He won't change his ways and while he has brought a lot of good to this franchise I don't see him as someone who will bring a cup to Columbus.

 

[6zag]

It's funny how you force us to choose one or the other and yet we still end up in a status quo. (votes being 13/13/3 right now.)

 

[gearmex]

I hate to say it but it's Jarmo's fault, not mine i am Jarmo also but he hired Torts and he backs him up, if he cannot see when time is up probably his time is up soon also.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

It's funny how you force us to choose one or the other and yet we still end up in a status quo. (votes being 13/13/3 right now.)

the poll is just for fun. I’m more interested in people’s reasonings.

 

[MissADD]

I voted neither. Not being there isn't blame to go on both of them, there clearly is, but because there are so many other things that happened that i don't think is either of there fault that the blame can't slowly be put on both of them