Where will Mo go?

[Henkka]

Didn't every single one of those player go pro right after the draft? So following your examples, Seider should be in the NHL next year.

Yeah, of course generational talents are exeptions. They just come in as fast they can and start playing against men on the highest possible level.

But thinking Seider as a generational talent... ehhh.

 

[Henkka]

The way people talk about it, it's a wonder the OHL graduates any players at all. After all, they spend 3+ years in a row playing against children.

There is a difference on certain age.

Like, in Finland rare of 16-year olds will play against men. That's even vs. Canadian juniors. 16-year olds will play against 16-17--18-19-20-21 aged juniors in U20 level also in Finland. Only "generational" Europeans have succeeded in Finnish/Swedish men's league as 16-year olds. I think these are Barkov and Dahlin. Laine played, but struggled.

As 17-year-olds, there has been many lately. Barkov, Laine, Puljujärvi, Kotkaniemi, Aho, Kakko, Heinola, Kupari, Vaakanainen, Heiskanen, Rantanen, Ristolainen. Season before the NHL Entry draft they start playing against men, practising with men and learning from men. This is the key season, which will give them some pro taste before any canadian junior leaguer can get to same kind environment. Seider did same in Germany.

It wasn't like this before. Maybe 5 years ago situation changed when Jokerit moved to KHL. Liiga level regressed. Also Espoo Team went bankrupt. So it's kind of coincidence, how the Liiga level of Finland has dropped down, because so many plays in KHL, SEL, better leagues. And some lesser organizations were promoted to Liiga, and they had to find cheaper solutions from kids than Espoo and Jokerit did with their highest payrolls.

It has opened spots for those kids, who after this drop are enough good to play against pros, but at same time some experienced vets still stay on the league, which would have retired in a tougher league, or would play on the 2nd level. They are there mentoring these kids daily basis and it's the biggest factor why Finnish juniors are winning these U18, U20 tournaments, because they are just more educated.

 

[Mlotek]

The way people talk about it, it's a wonder the OHL graduates any players at all. After all, they spend 3+ years in a row playing against children.

When was the last time Detroit drafted a star player from the OHL?

 

[FireBird71]

When was the last time Detroit drafted a star player from the OHL?

Yzerman

 

[ChrisReevesLegs]

Man I wish I'd seen that quote. I don't think I'm willing to dig though. If the Mannheim coach really said that, then it's probably the best place for him. Grand Rapids is pretty jammed up. I guess the Wings could talk to Simon and make sure he gets time, but it would be at another prospect's expense. I'm sure Grand Rapids is a higher level of play than the DEL, but I think they're close enough that it won't make a big developmental difference.

Same and same. I do remember using google translate to translate German articles about Seider the night of the draft as well... so it could've been in German too lol. If there's any German bros around maybe they can dig it up or comment...

I remember the coach said most of the classic stuff we've heard about Seider. Big character, very mature for his age, smart, learns quickly, adapts quickly, etc etc. I got the impression from the coach he was sheltering Seider from day one because he was a rookie teenager playing with men. But he said something along the lines "every new challenge I threw at him he mastered or overcame extremely quickly, and I had to give the kid more ice time" I think by the time the DEL playoffs rolled around he knew Seider was one of the best D on the team. And then Seider performed really well in the playoffs too. Big test for a rookie teenager those big games, and he overcame that too.

I'm super high on Seider lol

The way people talk about it, it's a wonder the OHL graduates any players at all. After all, they spend 3+ years in a row playing against children.

Hockey Abstract makes a translation factor for most relevant leagues, based on players who shift between those leagues and how they perform over the last 10-15 years or so. I think some other nerds do this to, but this is the one I know about it and it's generally pretty reliable, even for just a rough comparison among leagues.

This is the most recent one I could find with a quick google search.
They don't have one for DEL because not enough players go back and forth between that league, but my honest guess is it's probably somewhere between Finland and Hockey-East.
As you can see though, AHL is definitely a much higher competition level than OHL. All men's leagues and college leagues are above it as well.

 

[ChrisReevesLegs]

Yzerman

3 and half decades, yikes

And Yzerman hasn't drafted an OHLer since 2016

OHL is confirmed trash

 

[FireBird71]

3 and half decades, yikes

And Yzerman hasn't drafted an OHLer since 2016

OHL is confirmed trash

Yet they keep pumping out 1st round picks

 

[Gniwder]

Yeah, of course generational talents are exeptions. They just come in as fast they can and start playing against men on the highest possible level.

But thinking Seider as a generational talent... ehhh.

Of course he's not. If he was, this thread wouldn't even exist. That comment was sarcastic. His examples were just poor choices, that's all.

I'm not entirely convinced he'll learn much in the CHL though. Sure he'll get PP time, but kids leave so much time and space it's probably gonna be too easy for him right from the start. I voted AHL.

 

[ChrisReevesLegs]

Yet they keep pumping out 1st round picks

Yes, a massive pipeline of four this year. All in the second half of the 1st round.

Someone find the spigot and stop the flooding plz my family is dying

 

[FireBird71]

Yes, a massive pipeline of four this year. All in the second half of the 1st round.

Someone find the spigot and stop the flooding plz my family is dying

Maybe it’s deserved...7 the year before

 

[ChrisReevesLegs]

Yet they keep pumping out 1st round picks

"They keep pumping out 1st round picks"

Nice

Maybe it’s deserved...7 the year before

Almost cut in half in 1 year

Nvm

 

[Henkka]

And Yzerman hasn't drafted an OHLer since 2016

OHL is confirmed trash

It's not trash, but those player rights only for 2 seasons won't work with anybody else than high picks. They can jump in NHL sooner.

Using picks at low round for Canadian junior league, is mostly total waste. Those low round guys need extra years to mature, and before they are ready even near, you lose them. you can't sign them even in AHL, because they can't stand the competition against AHLrs.

You don't have time to develop them, so why draft them (lower round guys) ?

Why can't NHL draft rights from Canadian juniors last for 4 years, like college kids or Europeans?

 

[ChadS]

It's not trash, but those player rights only for 2 seasons won't work with anybody else than high picks. They can jump in NHL sooner.

Using picks at low round for Canadian junior league, is mostly total waste. Those low round guys need extra years to mature, and before they are ready even near, you lose them. you can't sign them even in AHL, because they can't stand the competition against AHLrs.

You don't have time to develop them, so why draft them (lower round guys) ?

Why can't NHL draft rights from Canadian juniors last for 4 years, like college kids or Europeans?

I think that's mostly because they can only play major junior for max. 3 years post-draft, and if you play a third year you probably don't have a legit NHL chance anyway. There would need to be a step in between for that 4 year rule to make sense.

I agree that low round picks should generally not be spent on CHLers.

 

[Oddbob]

Didn't every single one of those player go pro right after the draft? So following your examples, Seider should be in the NHL next year.

It wasn't about whether they went pro or not right away, it is they just came from playing with "kids", and they turned out fine.

 

[Oddbob]

Connor McDavid just drafted from the OHL 5 years ago, but yes it is trash! These kind of things are cyclical, some years the talent level is going to be Euro heavy, US heavy and CHL heavy, not too hard to understand. Just cause the Wings haven't landed a premier OHL player doesn't make it trash. Embarrassing to suggest otherwise.

 

[SCD]

Regarding the OHL, a lot depends on what the Organization thinks about the coaching staff in Sudbury. He would certainly get more minutes and opportunity to work on his offensive skills playing in the OHL, compared to AHL or DEL. He is on the younger side for this draft, so another year to physically mature at a lower level might be beneficial long term. He did just recover from a concussion.

 

[FireBird71]

"They keep pumping out 1st round picks"

Nice



Almost cut in half in 1 year

Nvm

8 of the last 20 1st overall picks came from the OHL genius...keep going...

 

[Oddbob]

2015 NHL Draft 1st Round

OHL 7
WHL 5
QMJHL 5
USHL 4
US College 3
Russian Jr 2
SHL 2
SM Liiga 1
Sweden Jr 1

Total: 30

2016 NHL Draft 1st Round

OHL 9
WHL 4
USHL 4
US College 3
BCHL 3
QMJHL 2
SM liiga 2
Swiss A 1
Russian Jr. 1
Finland Jr. 1

Total: 30

2017 NHL Draft 1st Round

WHL 7
OHL 5
SHL 4
USHL 4
QMJHL 2
SM Liiga 2
US College 2
Czech 2
AJHL 1
Swe-1 1
KHL 1

Total: 31

2018 NHL Draft 1st Round

OHL 7
SHL 5
QMJHL 4
USHL 3
WHL 2
US College 2
SM Liiga 2
KHL 1
Czech 1
Swe-1 1
AJHL 1
US High School 1
Russian Jr. 1

Total: 31

2019 NHL Draft 1st Round

USHL 9
WHL 7
OHL 4
QMJHL 2
SM Liiga 2
Sweden Jr. 2
DEL 1
SWE-1 1
Russian Jr. 1
SHL 1
BCHL 1

Total: 31


Total Past 5 Drafts in the 1st Round (153 Total Players Drafted)

OHL 32 (1st, 1st, 2nd, 1st and 3rd most in each year)
WHL 25
USHL 24
QMJHL 15
SHL 12
US College 10
SM Liiga 9
Russia Jr. 5
BCHL 4
Czech 3
Sweden Jr. 3
SWE-1 3
KHL 2
AJHL 2
Finland Jr. 1
DEL 1
Swiss A 1
US High School 1

* Even in an off year for the OHL they still had the 3rd most drafted players.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Or in other-words, if the OHL and or CHL sucks, than what do the other leagues do?????

 

[rawraw]

Did Connor McDavid develop bad habits from playing with "kids"? How about Wayne Gretzky, Bobby Orr, Mario Lemieux, Steve Yzerman, Nathan MacKinnon and on and on? Most of the players in the OHL or CHL are between 17-19, there is not that much of a difference. The only real difference is size, not necessarily maturity and intelligence. Also, as we have seen plenty of times, just being older and bigger doesn't always equate to dominating the junior ranks. Also, you can get a lot of bad habits from watching veteran players as well. Think about being in a locker room of men and your teammates are 27-30+ for example have made their name, know their slot and role on the team, know they have a for sure spot and now don't work out, or play as hard as they used to, and definitely not as hard as someone who is trying to get a spot on the team would need to. You can get bad habits with young or old, and you can also not develop bad habits just because you are in a bad environment.

You completely missed my point.
How many of those players you just mentioned went from significant pro hockey experience to junior hockey and back to pro hockey again? You're not talking about the same thing.
I don't have any issues with the CHL, it's a great developmental league.
If Seider didn't have this pro experience already then I would be all for putting him in the CHL to further work on his offensive game.
But it's different in this case for the reason I stated.

 

[Killerjas]

Please don't go to Owen Sound, this kid needs to play against men

 

[Konnan511]

As much as I'd prefer Seider go to the AHL, I do have to admit, going from pros to OHL to pros did work out for Hronek.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

You completely missed my point.
How many of those players you just mentioned went from significant pro hockey experience to junior hockey and back to pro hockey again? You're not talking about the same thing.
I don't have any issues with the CHL, it's a great developmental league.
If Seider didn't have this pro experience already then I would be all for putting him in the CHL to further work on his offensive game.
But it's different in this case for the reason I stated.

Our current best d-man Hronek went exactly this route. Technically Zadina did it in his draft year as well. Most European's that wind up in the CHL already have pro experience before coming over, the highly touted generally practicing and are playing spot duty as early as 16. So to answer your question a lot of guys, it is a part of why I find the hard no stance on this a bit much. I am not sure they will do it, but it is a viable option.

Most of the bad habits you like to keep out of the game are on the defensive side of the puck. You know the area they told us Seider already shows great knowledge in. With nice gap control and positional awareness. What the OHL would allow him to do is have the puck more and hold the puck more in his own zone, neutral zone and offensive zone. It would allow him to taste 20+ minutes a night, the eventual plan in Detroit. It would also put him on the smaller NA ice in a lower risk environment in terms of big shots while adjusting. These are the selling points and they are real.

Now he can make more money playing in Germany or the AHL. Those are fine leagues and he has things to work on. But no Ben Simon doesn't lose games for the Wings, that isn't how the AHL works or our partnership with the Devos family. The German coach cannot have him trying high risk moves offensively, he must fit the system and will be punished in a way he wouldn't be in the CHL where his talent level means rolling him back over the board to play again is your best chance to win. He would also check more high level first round talent night in and night out though not with the consistent energy, effort and skill you see up and down the lineup. But he isn't going to check anybody the caliber of Byfield the entire year in Germany either. The only 1st round caliber prospect in their league for the next draft is a teammate. Still he can develop in any of these leagues, again I stress though if the plan is Germany we shouldn't be putting him behind the 8 ball for their season by having him over here, he should be in their camp and loaned there for the year right now in my opinion. Mannheim's season starts in a couple weeks 3 days after the prospect tournament, put him there instead of Traverse City if that is the plan and do it today.

 

[rawraw]

As much as I'd prefer Seider go to the AHL, I do have to admit, going from pros to OHL to pros did work out for Hronek.

Hronek wasn't physically mature to play pro hockey in NA at that time, so that was the right move.
He didn't have Seiders physical gifts and hadn't showed he could play and keep up with NHL players at the same age, like Seider has.

 

[Oddbob]

You completely missed my point.
How many of those players you just mentioned went from significant pro hockey experience to junior hockey and back to pro hockey again? You're not talking about the same thing.
I don't have any issues with the CHL, it's a great developmental league.
If Seider didn't have this pro experience already then I would be all for putting him in the CHL to further work on his offensive game.
But it's different in this case for the reason I stated.

He has only played 1 season in the DEL, that isn't that long. Also, who is to say he couldn't improve playing with kids, just because he already played with men? Like TZE mentioned he would get an excellent opportunity to work on his offensive game, and would likely see a lot more ice time in the OHL vs DEL. I brought up the players I did, because they played in the same league as Mo would be playing, and they all played with and against kids at that time. I don't think going in "reverse" will hinder him at all, plus he would also get to play with a lot more of the players he will be competing with and against in the OHL vs DEL.

 

[SirloinUB]

I doubt it is "confirmed information" at this point but his eliteprospects page lists him as on loan to Adler Mannheim for the up coming season. Not really worth reading into as I assume they are just pegging him to play for the same team he played for last year