What Level of Credit is Due to Dorion for the Karlsson Deal?

[Micklebot]

You can also watch the last Sharks season when he didn't play with Dillon or other games he played without Methot or a strong defensive partner. Karlsson needs a babysitter to be really effective at even strength. He needs somebody to cover for him defensively and to do the physical work, for example along the boards. History has shown that an average partner isn't gonna do for him. He needs a quality stay at home partner. If you don't believe me, watch next season. I'd be surprised if he's effective because the best he can hope for is Radim Simek.

We've all watched a ton of Karlsson around here, not sure you get anywhere telling people what to watch. When he's on his game, Karlsson is excellent along the boards because he can use his stick to extract the puck and getting moving quickly.

Where Karlsson has his biggest issue is between his ears. When he checks out, it's bad. He definitely checked out last year. When he is dialed in, he doesn't need anyone babysitting him, as evidenced during our run to the ECF.

 

[FormentonTheFuture]

don't know about hockey sense, but it seems like Lebanc has no financial sense

 

[Hinterland]

Your personal biased opinion does not define reality.

In truth, this thread has revealed your tendency to deny reality if it doesn’t fit your narrative when you claim you didn’t state things that are clearly there for all to read.

Every opinion is biased...I'm posting what I see. I predicted all of this when the deal happened while most of you were upset...so I can't be too far away from reality.

 

[GrantLemons]

I like the deal specifically because of this one reason:
We had Karl. We had Duchene. We had Stone. With those players, we came in dead last.

Handing out raises to lock up the league's worst roster feels like the definition of madness.

That team had almost unprecedented off-ice distractions, a coach that the team was tired of, and a flaming trash defense core.

I'm not saying locking those three guys up long term was the right play, but there's certainly a world where you shuffle the deck that off-season and come back with a much stronger squad the next year.

 

[danielpalfredsson]

I get what your saying, but if the Sharks and Doug Wilson's plan is the equivalent to being heavily in debt and taking on another credit card and then maxing it out on a balance transfer just to keep things afloat for another few years...

There were ways that he could have avoided committing the sharks to 8 years of cap hell and relying on declining former stars.

I don't really agree with your interpretation. Even with the big contracts, the Sharks cap situation was mostly manageable in the short and mid-term. The issue they were going to face was that once their players started to decline, there would be no cap mobility. The only player they lost last off season due to the cap was Pavelski, and at least on the ice, it was proven to be the right move as he took a considerable step back.

The Sharks having to rebuild 4+ years down the line was inevitable, unless the cap exploded (which was a possibility). So adding Karlsson to that junk pile of future bad contracts had no negative effect, since they were probably projecting to have a 4 or so year span where they weren't going to be able to compete anyways. The next 1-4 years after acquiring Karlsson were so much more valuable to the Sharks than the 4 years after that, so it made sense that they wouldn't care if Karlsson couldn't live up to the back half of his contract.

Now, of course that hasn't played out. Karlsson in the short term looks like he is done in the first year of the contract, and the COVID-19 situation has destroyed any prospect of the cap rising for another few years. The latter is something no one could have seen coming last off season.

I don't think anybody should write off the prospect of Karlsson bouncing back. He is going to have an extended layoff due to the COVID situation and San Jose not being in the playoffs. He also has apparently never taken off-season training that seriously, so there is something he can fix. With that said, I also think it is fair to consider this Karlsson's new normal until he proves otherwise. 11.5 million under an 81.5 million cap would be a bargain for prime Karlsson. For the Karlsson San Jose got this season, with no prospect of the cap rising anytime soon, the contract is an albatross.

The most interesting story to me would be if San Jose gets two compliance buyouts. Vlasic seems like an obvious buyout to me, but do they use the second one on Karlsson? I don't think they would, but if they are given a year to use the buyout, and he has another bad season, I think it becomes more likely they use it on him.

 

[Sensung]

Every opinion is biased...I'm posting what I see.

There's a difference between bashing and a realistic view of things.

The problem is that you are posting your biased opinion based on what you see as defining what is “realistic”.

You have made obviously false claims and deflected when confronted with your own words.

You are welcome to post your biased opinion on the board, but will continue to be challenged for those takes when you present such flimsy evidence and then fall back to “what I see defines realistic”.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Go ask the Sharks board...they'll all tell you the same. He has the speed and technique of a star but he's fallen through as a top6 forward multiple times because of a lack of strength but mainly because of wrong decisions with and without the puck. Very frustrating player to watch...does almost everything wrong against the puck, has great vision for passes but tends not to play them when he should just to play hail mary passes when he shouldn't. Plays the extra pass when he's in a great spot to shoot the puck just to shoot pucks into obvious blocks or shoot from impossible angles. Also has no eye for open spaces...constantly shooting or passing with open space in front of him just to skate right into defenders when there's no space at all.

There were numerous reports of Wilson trying to trade Labanc but it never happened...a lot of scouting in today's day and age. Hard to sell fools gold.

So are we to conclude you think Dorion is amazing?

 

[Samsquanch]

I don't really agree with your interpretation. Even with the big contracts, the Sharks cap situation was mostly manageable in the short and mid-term. The issue they were going to face was that once their players started to decline, there would be no cap mobility. The only player they lost last off season due to the cap was Pavelski, and at least on the ice, it was proven to be the right move as he took a considerable step back.

The Sharks having to rebuild 4+ years down the line was inevitable, unless the cap exploded (which was a possibility). So adding Karlsson to that junk pile of future bad contracts had no negative effect, since they were probably projecting to have a 4 or so year span where they weren't going to be able to compete anyways. The next 1-4 years after acquiring Karlsson were so much more valuable to the Sharks than the 4 years after that, so it made sense that they wouldn't care if Karlsson couldn't live up to the back half of his contract.

Now, of course that hasn't played out. Karlsson in the short term looks like he is done in the first year of the contract, and the COVID-19 situation has destroyed any prospect of the cap rising for another few years. The latter is something no one could have seen coming last off season.

I don't think anybody should write off the prospect of Karlsson bouncing back. He is going to have an extended layoff due to the COVID situation and San Jose not being in the playoffs. He also has apparently never taken off-season training that seriously, so there is something he can fix. With that said, I also think it is fair to consider this Karlsson's new normal until he proves otherwise. 11.5 million under an 81.5 million cap would be a bargain for prime Karlsson. For the Karlsson San Jose got this season, with no prospect of the cap rising anytime soon, the contract is an albatross.

The most interesting story to me would be if San Jose gets two compliance buyouts. Vlasic seems like an obvious buyout to me, but do they use the second one on Karlsson? I don't think they would, but if they are given a year to use the buyout, and he has another bad season, I think it becomes more likely they use it on him.

Adding Karlsson had a hugely negative affect because they not only lost an ultra crucial draft pick, but also their two best forward prospects. Not to mention depth in Tierney and Demelo.

If the Karlsson and Burns experiment worked out and they tore the league up, we wouldn't be having this conversation. But if completely backfired on them, and they are not in a favourable cap position to do anything but tread water for the next several seasons.

That's bad, imo.

 

[Hinterland]

So are we to conclude you think Dorion is amazing?

Oof, amazing would probably too much. He has made obvious mistakes...but for a guy with limited financial options and Melnyk on his back I guess you can't complain when looking at his work in total. This particular deal is fantastic as well...even though it's obviously unclear how much of it Dorion really negotiated and how much Wilson just threw at him.

It's of course also unclear how much Dorion really was interested in signing Karlsson. Personally I'm willing to believe that he wouldn't have offered Karlsson the deal he got in SJ even if he had the opportunity to do it because I think he's smart enough to realize that it would have hurt the franchise even if Karlsson had a few prime years left. The Sens were rebuilding and by the time they're true contenders, Karlsson wouldn't have been able to live up to his deal regardless. If the Sens medical stuff isn't completely bonkers, then they also reported to Dorion and co. how bad Karlsson's foot really is. I'm sure the obviously crippled foot played a role when evaluating the options. If you ask me then Dorion played Wilson a bit.. at least to a certain degree. Not everything he said back then was what he really thought or intended to do. Just my theory though.

 

[Hinterland]

I don't really agree with your interpretation. Even with the big contracts, the Sharks cap situation was mostly manageable in the short and mid-term. The issue they were going to face was that once their players started to decline, there would be no cap mobility. The only player they lost last off season due to the cap was Pavelski, and at least on the ice, it was proven to be the right move as he took a considerable step back.

The Sharks having to rebuild 4+ years down the line was inevitable, unless the cap exploded (which was a possibility). So adding Karlsson to that junk pile of future bad contracts had no negative effect, since they were probably projecting to have a 4 or so year span where they weren't going to be able to compete anyways. The next 1-4 years after acquiring Karlsson were so much more valuable to the Sharks than the 4 years after that, so it made sense that they wouldn't care if Karlsson couldn't live up to the back half of his contract.

Now, of course that hasn't played out. Karlsson in the short term looks like he is done in the first year of the contract, and the COVID-19 situation has destroyed any prospect of the cap rising for another few years. The latter is something no one could have seen coming last off season.

I don't think anybody should write off the prospect of Karlsson bouncing back. He is going to have an extended layoff due to the COVID situation and San Jose not being in the playoffs. He also has apparently never taken off-season training that seriously, so there is something he can fix. With that said, I also think it is fair to consider this Karlsson's new normal until he proves otherwise. 11.5 million under an 81.5 million cap would be a bargain for prime Karlsson. For the Karlsson San Jose got this season, with no prospect of the cap rising anytime soon, the contract is an albatross.

The most interesting story to me would be if San Jose gets two compliance buyouts. Vlasic seems like an obvious buyout to me, but do they use the second one on Karlsson? I don't think they would, but if they are given a year to use the buyout, and he has another bad season, I think it becomes more likely they use it on him.

Mr. Plattner is a pretty calm and quiet owner...but Mr. Wilson wouldn't survive the buyouts of both Vlasic and Karlsson so he's not gonna go to Plattner with that suggestion. For that to happen, Plattner would have to fire Wilson first.

 

[Hinterland]

Adding Karlsson had a hugely negative affect because they not only lost an ultra crucial draft pick, but also their two best forward prospects. Not to mention depth in Tierney and Demelo.

If the Karlsson and Burns experiment worked out and they tore the league up, we wouldn't be having this conversation. But if completely backfired on them, and they are not in a favourable cap position to do anything but tread water for the next several seasons.

That's bad, imo.

Exactly. And I wrote all of this on hf Sharks after and even before the deal went down. I'm not gonna go there to rub it in though in order to avoid bans

Well, DeMelo turned out to be better than they expected (something else I told them) but him and Tierney really weren't a big deal to lose. The main problem really was to give up their best forward prospect and the Karlsson extension. Those are the two things that ruined their franchise. They would really need cap flexibility and young (cheap) forward talent, now that their forward group is thin and injury prone.

If they hadn't signed him and kept Norris (granted nonsense talk because Dorion most likely wouldn't have agreed) they'd have an addional top6 player and an additional 2nd round pick, to go with a certain cap flexibility. Still a bad position but much better than to just, as you stated, tread water for years.

 

[Sensung]

We've all watched a ton of Karlsson around here, not sure you get anywhere telling people what to watch. When he's on his game, Karlsson is excellent along the boards because he can use his stick to extract the puck and getting moving quickly.

Where Karlsson has his biggest issue is between his ears. When he checks out, it's bad. He definitely checked out last year. When he is dialed in, he doesn't need anyone babysitting him, as evidenced during our run to the ECF.

I expect we’ll see a far more “checked in” EK next season.

 

[coladin]

Luck is luck, just like betting red or black. You and I both know EK would have been signed as Pierre's (who has shown an inability to evaluate pro level talent before) boytoy if not for the gorilla in the room. Pierre was in love with him, except for one guy. You of all guys know that.

True, luck is luck...but is he always lucky all the time? We can all agree that Pierre is a pretty good at spotting talent, I would also think he is a pretty good at evaluating when to jump off, like he did with Turris and Karlsson. Did Pierre want to keep him? I'm sure he did...to a point. It was going to be a marketing disaster, and it was. I think the price Karlsson got from SJ would not have worked here, and maybe Ottawa's "offer" was not completely honest, but it was there to be signed , and Karlsson chose not to sign it.

 

[coladin]

This thread was to assess and grade Pierre Dorion's role in the trade, but as usual, the Karlsson haters have done their best to derail and continue the trend of bashing players as they leave town to fit the narrative the team wants. The fact of the matter is, nobody cares anymore about what happens to the Sharks going forward. If you hate EK, he's gone, get over it.

Pierre Dorion ended up getting a great return in the trade. Was he lucky? In my opinion VERY.

Which part was VERY lucky. All of it?

 

[coladin]

Your personal biased opinion does not define reality.

In truth, this thread has revealed your tendency to deny reality if it doesn’t fit your narrative when you repeatedly claim you didn’t make statements that are clearly there for all to read.

You have no bias then? Did I not read that EK is your favorite Sens player of all time?

 

[coladin]

So are we to conclude you think Dorion is amazing?

Sens HF doing its thing, going from one extreme to the other

 

[swiftwin]

We've all watched a ton of Karlsson around here, not sure you get anywhere telling people what to watch. When he's on his game, Karlsson is excellent along the boards because he can use his stick to extract the puck and getting moving quickly.

Where Karlsson has his biggest issue is between his ears. When he checks out, it's bad. He definitely checked out last year. When he is dialed in, he doesn't need anyone babysitting him, as evidenced during our run to the ECF.

I think that's partially due to his style of defense. It's a very very active style that requires a ton of mental energy. Mistakes look awful. Where as a more traditional defenseman can kinda mail it in, play positionally sound and minimize the number of mistakes.

 

[Sensung]

You have no bias then? Did I not read that EK is your favorite Sens player of all time?

Unlike the poster I was addressing, I don't claim that my opinion defines reality.

Sorry if you missed the context.

 

[Sensung]

Here's a question to ponder.

How long would this thread last on this board if EK had been dominant and the Sharks had won the cup and looked poised to do so again?

 

[dumbdick]

Here's a question to ponder.

How long would this thread last on this board if EK had been dominant and the Sharks had won the cup and looked poised to do so again?

Yeah, let's all picture alternate realities where everything went poorly. Way to knock us all down a peg, Deb.

 

[Sensung]

Yeah, let's all picture alternate realities where everything went poorly. Way to knock us all down a peg, Deb.

Not sure how this would knock anyone down a peg. If anything, it points to how well things have gone for the Sens with this trade.

You missed the real point of my post.

 

[HavlatMach9]

The other point for consideration re that 1st round draft pick

There was an article a few months back in the Athletic on the trade. In the article an SJ exec (i forget who, not Wilson) said that SJ pushed for that pick to be top 10 protected and Dorion pushed back.

I think it's fair to say that a top 3 pick is lucky if it works out that way, but it's also fair to say he made his own luck by insisting the pick not be protected.

Dorion would have every right to push back. We already had to wait for 2020 because San Jose tied up the 2019 pick with Buffalo.

 

[BatherSeason]

Which part was VERY lucky. All of it?

Pretty much all of it.

 

[danielpalfredsson]

Dorion would have every right to push back. We already had to wait for 2020 because San Jose tied up the 2019 pick with Buffalo.

You are 100 percent right about how they wouldn't accept the pick pushed to 2021, but on a side note I think the Buffalo situation was a big reason why we pulled the trigger on sending Karlsson to San Jose.

Getting a guarantee that we'd either get a 1st in a stronger draft (2020) or the option of a top 15 pick in 2019 was better than taking a 2019 1st from Dallas that would probably be top 3 protected.

 

[Hinterland]

Unlike the poster I was addressing, I don't claim that my opinion defines reality.

Sorry if you missed the context.

Yeah, you're living in your Karlsson dreamworld instead and are constantly talking about unrealistic scenarios like Karlsson playing career years or the Sharks becoming contenders again. None of your fantasies are gonna happen...but hey, whatever makes you happy I guess.