What Level of Credit is Due to Dorion for the Karlsson Deal?

[Sweatred]

The word is fantasy.

And I'll happily remind you when EK returns to Norris level play.

In the meantime he is taking nearly 15% of his teams cap. EK was all about the pay day he was going to get asa UFA. He’s quoted claiming it over and over... I’m glad he got it in SJ.

 

[DueDiligence]

The criteria was 30 years old. Don't try and move the goalposts.

Elite players like Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos, Ovi and EK are still elite well into their 30's.

Not moving the goalposts but pointing out some facts! None of those guys are "well into their 30s" as none are older than 34. Crosby is 32, Malkin is 33, Stamkos is 30 and Ovi they old man at 34. The only elite player in those you mentioned is Ovi the rest are just really good not elite. EK has 7 more years on his contract. He might have 1 or 2 elite years left but that's it.

 

[Sensung]

In the meantime he is taking nearly 15% of his teams cap. EK was all about the pay day he was going to get asa UFA. He’s quoted claiming it over and over... I’m glad he got it in SJ.

I can remember on one occasion where he was quoted as saying he would get market value, when asked directly about it.

After Melnyk’s treatment of his mentor and fellow captain Alfie, I don’t think anyone should have been surprised by this.

If ownership wants loyalty and hometown discounts, they need to treat the players with respect and compete for a cup. Players will take less to get more talent on the roster, but not to line the pockets of a cheap POS like Eugene.

 

[Sensung]

Not moving the goalposts but pointing out some facts! None of those guys are "well into their 30s" as none are older than 34. Crosby is 32, Malkin is 33, Stamkos is 30 and Ovi they old man at 34. The only elite player in those you mentioned is Ovi the rest are just really good not elite. EK has 7 more years on his contract. He might have 1 or 2 elite years left but that's it.

You set the goalposts and then moved them.

Cosby, Malkin and Stamkos are not elite?
Thanks for coming out.

 

[Sweatred]

I can remember on one occasion where he was quoted as saying he would get market value, when asked directly about it.

After Melnyk’s treatment of his mentor and fellow captain Alfie, I don’t think anyone should have been surprised by this.

If ownership wants loyalty and hometown discounts, they need to treat the players with respect and compete for a cup. Players will take less to get more talent on the roster, but not to line the pockets of a cheap POS like Eugene.

Loyalty and home town discounts are not guaranteed. The Alfie issue sounded a lot like the Yashin issue (verbal promises).

When a player says “market value” they mean the ceiling of what the market will pay as their net salary. Clearly EK felt he was worth at least SJ’s version of $11.5/ which in Ottberia (taxes, weather, beeches, restaurants) is prob worth $13-14....

He made those comments every time he was asked.

Erik Karlsson says he wants ‘market value’ on his next contract. How much is that? - SBNation.com

 

[Sensung]

Loyalty and home town discounts are not guaranteed. The Alfie issue sounded a lot like the Yashin issue (verbal promises).

When a player says “market value” they mean the ceiling of what the market will pay as their net salary. Clearly EK felt he was worth at least SJ’s version of $11.5/ which in Ottberia (taxes, weather, beeches, restaurants) is prob worth $13-14....

He made those comments every time he was asked.

Erik Karlsson says he wants ‘market value’ on his next contract. How much is that? - SBNation.com

I can remember him answering this question one time. If you have evidence of other times, please post them. (Not that it matters, as it was his right)

Your explanation of market value shows you have no grasp of the concept. The ceiling (i.e. what the market will bear) determines market value. If not, just let me know the next time you put your house up for sale...

Your supposition of 13-14 for Ottawa is worthless. For an ownership group with Alfie at the lead, EK would have signed for much less.

 

[Sweatred]

I can remember him answering this question one time. If you have evidence of other times, please post them. (Not that it matters, as it was his right)

Your explanation of market value shows you have no grasp of the concept. The ceiling (i.e. what the market will bear) determines market value. If not, just let me know the next time you put your house up for sale...

Your supposition of 13-14 for Ottawa is worthless. For an ownership group with Alfie at the lead, EK would have signed for much less.

I smile every time you tell someone they are clueless and than make statements like “EK would have signed for much less (with Alfie)” like it is some type of fact.

 

[Crosside]

I can remember him answering this question one time. If you have evidence of other times, please post them. (Not that it matters, as it was his right)

Your explanation of market value shows you have no grasp of the concept. The ceiling (i.e. what the market will bear) determines market value. If not, just let me know the next time you put your house up for sale...

Your supposition of 13-14 for Ottawa is worthless. For an ownership group with Alfie at the lead, EK would have signed for much less.

Who knows,maybe it’s Alfie told to the new potential owner. Wait Melnyk gonna strip the team of big salaries

 

[Byron Bitz]

I wouldn't say "genius" because while I thought the Sharks might miss the playoffs this year, I don't think Dorion would have envisioned them finishing 3rd last. But I would say whatever opinion you have of Sakic for the Duchene deal should be the same for Dorion in this deal. In both cases the pick received is much much higher than expected.

Both trades and the Kessel trade are examples of how dangerous it is to trade undetermined 1st round picks

 

[DueDiligence]

You set the goalposts and then moved them.

Cosby, Malkin and Stamkos are not elite?
Thanks for coming out.

You are one of those guys that think 25% of the players are "elite". Elite is the best of the best and the top 2 or 3 at their position. I have McDavid , Matthews and MacKinnon all ranked above those guys you mentioned this year. And Karlsson ; not even top 10 this year.

 

[Sensung]

You are one of those guys that think 25% of the players are "elite".

Build strawmen much?

883 skaters played in the NHL last year. Being in the top 25 in scoring (the only loose criteria presented) means those players who achieve that feat are in the top 3% in scoring.

So even with you making dubious assumptions, your math doesn't add up.

Elite is the best of the best and the top 2 or 3 at their position. I have McDavid , Matthews and MacKinnon all ranked above those guys you mentioned this year. And Karlsson ; not even top 10 this year.

You are welcome to define "elite" in your head any way you want.

I think you will find it difficult to find too many other hockey fans, officials, journalists, coaches, or players who don't laugh in your face when you tell them Stamkos, Malkin, and Crosby aren't elite.

 

[bert]

The premise of THIS thread is that Karlsson has declined and does Dorion deserve credit for anticipating it.

If you want to start a thread about an alternate universe where Karlsson is still the player he was three years ago, playing for a juggernaut Sharks team, go for it.

Dorion offered Karlsson an 8 year contract he turned down. Which makes the premise of the argument obsolete. It was not Dorions decision to trade Karlsson, he wanted to sign him. How can he get credit for anticipating Karlssons decline? Its clearly luck.

 

[bert]

Like Sweatred stated above, Karlsson most likely still has good hockey left, however, I predict he will never again reach his form of 2016-2017.

My theory is that 11.5 M will make 90% of athletes soft. There are some that work their asses off till the end (eg. Crosby) but most lose their edge once they've hit the jackpot.

I think as Ottawa fans, we got to enjoy Karlsson's best years, and Dorion did well to trade him at the height of his value to get assets for the future.

It wasnt the height of his value though the height was before the trade deadline. The reason Karlsson was not signed was ultimately Melnyk and Dorions doing. They created an environment that was so toxic that he refused to stay. Yes it turns out it looks like the best possible situation for the sens and we should all be happy about it but that doesnt mean this was a master plan excecuted at the highest degree. The sens management was forced to trade Karlsson due to their inefficiency.

 

[bert]

You are one of those guys that think 25% of the players are "elite". Elite is the best of the best and the top 2 or 3 at their position. I have McDavid , Matthews and MacKinnon all ranked above those guys you mentioned this year. And Karlsson ; not even top 10 this year.

So are you doubling down on Crosby and Malkin not being elite because you personally set artificial tiers then decided who was in those tiers? Yikes. I am not saying I expect Karlsson to be elite again im 50/50 on it but Sidney Crosby is still a super star. There is no chance in hell if im trying to win a Stanley Cup right now I am taking Matthews on my team over Malkin or Crosby.

 

[Sensung]

I smile every time you tell someone they are clueless and than make statements like “EK would have signed for much less (with Alfie)” like it is some type of fact.

A couple of things.

At no point did I call you clueless.

The “much less for Alfie” statement was based on your fantasy “14 M in Ottawa” scenario. The contract he signed in SJ is for much less than 14M.

 

[Sweatred]

A couple of things.

At no point did I call you clueless.

The “much less for Alfie” statement was based on your fantasy “14 M in Ottawa” scenario. The contract he signed in SJ is for much less than 14M.

Hey dude ... I have no time for personal attacks. Your exact words were “which shows you have no grasp of the concept” which to me means “clueless”. It comes off pretty high for you to make comments like that.

2. Please tell me what a player in SJ making $11.5 would need to make in Ottawa to have the same NET income and add a $1 million For beaches and weather and $1 million for restaurants and designer shopping. That’s not even valuing the competitive difference between SJ and OTT.

 

[Sensung]

Hey dude ... I have no time for personal attacks. Your exact words were “which shows you have no grasp of the concept” which to me means “clueless”. It comes off pretty high for you to make comments like that.

2. Please tell me what a player in SJ making $11.5 would need to make in Ottawa to have the same NET income and add a $1 For beaches and weather and $1 million for restaurants and designer shopping.

1. There is a big difference between saying someone has a specific area where they don’t understand something and saying that person is clueless.

2. Perhaps EK charged SJ a premium based on having to move his wife and now child away from her hometown. You don’t know what criteria were important to EK and his wife, so stop pretending you do.

We both know that EK negotiating with Melnyk would be significantly different than EK negotiating with an Alfie led ownership group. Many have suggested, and I am inclined to agree, that Dorion was delaying the trade due to a hope that new ownership would be in place making signing EK a real possibility.

 

[Sweatred]

1. There is a big difference between saying someone has a specific area where they don’t understand something and saying that person is clueless.

2. Perhaps EK charged SJ a premium based on having to move his wife and now child away from her hometown. You don’t know what criteria were important to EK and his wife, so stop pretending you do.

We both know that EK negotiating with Melnyk would be significantly different than EK negotiating with an Alfie led ownership group. Many have suggested, and I am inclined to agree, that Dorion was delaying the trade due to a hope that new ownership would be in place making signing EK a real possibility.

Dude - You don’t think I understand what market value means.. or above market ? You want to buy my house crap ? I have no interest in talking hockey with a guy with that type of BS.

Take note that I choose not to not tell you what I really think because it has nothing to do with hockey.

 

[Sensung]

Dude - You don’t think I understand what market value means.. or above market ? You want to buy my house crap ? I have no interest in talking hockey with a guy with that type of BS.

Take note that I choose not to not tell you what I really think because it has nothing to do with hockey.

When you start demonstrating a grasp of market value for UFA's, I'll be happy to acknowledge it.

 

[Sweatred]

When you start demonstrating a grasp of market value for UFA's, I'll be happy to acknowledge it.

Have a good day.

 

[Sensung]

Have a good day.

You too.

 

[Sweatred]

Dorion offered Karlsson an 8 year contract he turned down. Which makes the premise of the argument obsolete. It was not Dorions decision to trade Karlsson, he wanted to sign him. How can he get credit for anticipating Karlssons decline? Its clearly luck.

Dorion offered EK about $30 million less with no trade protection or bonus money which could be bought out further limiting the total value.

I thinks it’s fair to say Dorion saw EK’s value closer to $50-65 million over the term vs $92 million.

Since he offered the contract he would have to have been prepared to honour it if it was accepted. He probably knew there was 99% chance EK wouldn’t take it.

 

[Sensung]

Dorion offered EK about $30 million less

8×10 = 80
8×11.5 = 92
92-80 =12, not 30.

 

[BatherSeason]

I thinks it’s fair to say Dorion saw EK’s value closer to $50-65 million over the term vs $92 million.

I thinks it’s fair to say MELNYK saw EK’s value closer to $50-65 million over the term vs 92 million.

Corrected it for you. If Melnyk wasn't the owner, Dorion would have signed Karlsson.

 

[Sweatred]

I thinks it’s fair to say MELNYK saw EK’s value closer to $50-65 million over the term vs 92 million.

Corrected it for you. If Melnyk wasn't the owner, Dorion would have signed Karlsson.

Maybe ? It wouldn’t have been a good idea. If what you say is correct EM is smarter than we give him credit for. His eval is probably the closest to the right number.