What Level of Credit is Due to Dorion for the Karlsson Deal?

Discussion in 'Ottawa Senators' started by jhutter, Apr 22, 2020.

  1. variable26 Global Matador

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2013
    Messages:
    5,935
    Likes Received:
    2,185
    Trophy Points:
    126
    SB Cash:
    $ 300,000
    that acceleration.... wow
     
  2. KnuckChuckinTkachuk Give'yer balls a tug

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Messages:
    1,597
    Likes Received:
    437
    Trophy Points:
    94
    SB Cash:
    $ 300,000
    But if their pick lands #1 and we get Lafreniere, it'll easily rival the Yashin for Spezza/Chara deal.
     
  3. KnuckChuckinTkachuk Give'yer balls a tug

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Messages:
    1,597
    Likes Received:
    437
    Trophy Points:
    94
    SB Cash:
    $ 300,000
    What could have been had Matt Cooke not sliced him open :(
     
    BradyTkachucky likes this.
  4. Micklebot Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2010
    Messages:
    32,687
    Likes Received:
    9,497
    Trophy Points:
    187
    SB Cash:
    $ 300,000
    Is Lafreniere guaranteed to be better than Chara or Spezza? Even if he is, is he enough so to make up the difference between Norris et al vs Spezza/Chara? Don't get me wrong, he's a great prospect, but Spezza was too, and Chara is going to be a HOF dman the second he retires.

    I think between our top 2 picks, we might end up with as big of an impact the Yashin trade. But, I wouldn't trade either our pick or SJs for Norris, Tierney, DeMelo, Balcers and a 2nd, at least not unless we lose on lottery day and end up in the 5 slot.
     
  5. NyQuil F.Y.O.U.S.

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2005
    Messages:
    70,390
    Likes Received:
    17,130
    Trophy Points:
    231
    SB Cash:
    $ 300,000
    Location:
    Ottawa, ON
    What is sad is that most people (non-Senators fans) don't really understand that fact because of his incredible 2017 performance.

    They assume he was back to where he was.
     
    Erik Alfredsson likes this.
  6. Dino Tkachuk Ottawa Senators

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2009
    Messages:
    1,343
    Likes Received:
    212
    Trophy Points:
    111
    SB Cash:
    $ 300,000
    To the bold, they did trade for Duchene in November 2017 but then on December 1st (my feeling is that) the quote below changed everything.

    “When I go to market, I’m going to get what I’m worth, and it’s going to be no less, no matter where I’m going,” Karlsson told the Ottawa Sun on Thursday.
    That’s a strong indication of how Karlsson plans to approach what could be his final opportunity to land a monster long-term contract. The two-time Norris Trophy winner may enjoy playing in Ottawa, but he’s looking to get paid. And for a team in a smaller market that typically doesn’t keep up with the big spenders, it’s fair to wonder what it means for the future.

    Erik Karlsson says he wants ‘market value’ on his next contract. How much is that? - SBNation.com

    I think the bold underline text really shook a lot of people in the organization. This was the captain of your team talking, the guy who was supposed to lead your team for years to come and he had just come off a huge Stanley Cup playoff in the spring of 2017. I believe that Karlsson "walked back" a lot of that comment but at that point the damage was done and by January the team had made their decision. Everything that happened after that was fallout (i.e. Hoffman trade, Duchene trade, Stone trade) and just bad management/PR.

    That said, this has been discussed ad nauseum and I'm quite confident in my interpretation of how things went down and, given all of the crazy that happened in the months leading up to the trade, Dorion did quite well for the team, lucky or otherwise.

    2011/12/13 Karlsson was just amazing and you knew you were witnessing something special.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2020
  7. Sensung Registered User

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2017
    Messages:
    6,070
    Likes Received:
    3,155
    Trophy Points:
    101
    SB Cash:
    $ 300,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Anyone in the organization who thought EK would take a hometown discount for Eugene after Melnyk screwed over Alfie is a moron and should have been fired on the spot.
     
  8. KnuckChuckinTkachuk Give'yer balls a tug

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Messages:
    1,597
    Likes Received:
    437
    Trophy Points:
    94
    SB Cash:
    $ 300,000
    Maybe not but if he leads us to the promise land and becomes that superstar winger then yes.

    If Norris becomes a top 6 center with intangibles it also helps. Plus the picks (and ones we receive from trading the DeMelos/Tierney) also factor in.

    Chara accomplished most his HOF career in Boston so the fact we let him go also plays a role in the impact he had for the Sens (because I'm not taking their performance for other teams into consideration). If Laf plays his next 15+ years for the Sens, it changes a lot of how the trade is perceived.
     
  9. BatherSeason Registered User

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2009
    Messages:
    5,494
    Likes Received:
    2,585
    Trophy Points:
    156
    SB Cash:
    $ 300,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Gatineau
    At that point were there any superstars in the league taking "hometown discounts"? If so, who?

    Why vilify one guy who answered a question because Drew Doughty decided to be a poop disturber?
     
  10. NyQuil F.Y.O.U.S.

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2005
    Messages:
    70,390
    Likes Received:
    17,130
    Trophy Points:
    231
    SB Cash:
    $ 300,000
    Location:
    Ottawa, ON
    Doesn't Tampa Bay have a couple?
     
  11. Sensung Registered User

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2017
    Messages:
    6,070
    Likes Received:
    3,155
    Trophy Points:
    101
    SB Cash:
    $ 300,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Occassionally players will take less to help an organization gain competitive advantage. (Especially if they are up against the cap.)

    Alfie sacrificed in this manner a couple of times for Sens ownership and was screwed over when it came time for his final contract.

    The lesson was not lost on EK.
     
  12. Sensung Registered User

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2017
    Messages:
    6,070
    Likes Received:
    3,155
    Trophy Points:
    101
    SB Cash:
    $ 300,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Yup.

    Team against the cap with ownership doing everything to win.

    To line Eugene's pockets...no chance.
     
    Dino Tkachuk likes this.
  13. NyQuil F.Y.O.U.S.

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2005
    Messages:
    70,390
    Likes Received:
    17,130
    Trophy Points:
    231
    SB Cash:
    $ 300,000
    Location:
    Ottawa, ON
    Well, they also have a very positive tax situation in Florida.

    I find it amusing that the outrage of what it means in terms of the cap only arose once Toronto ran into some trouble.

    All of a sudden it's a "league-wide issue".
     
  14. BatherSeason Registered User

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2009
    Messages:
    5,494
    Likes Received:
    2,585
    Trophy Points:
    156
    SB Cash:
    $ 300,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Gatineau
    I see players wanting to help their team's cap situation (as mentioned Tampa) when your team is committed to spending and winning, but when you are a team barely over the floor with so much cap space, why would a player be expected to take a hometown discount?
     
  15. FormentonTheFuture Registered User

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2017
    Messages:
    3,980
    Likes Received:
    1,734
    Trophy Points:
    101
    SB Cash:
    $ 300,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Sidney Crosby (best player in the world) has taken one (a huge one actually) his entire career. Does that mean others have to? No
     
  16. BondraTime Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2005
    Messages:
    19,576
    Likes Received:
    8,952
    Trophy Points:
    186
    SB Cash:
    $ 300,000
    Location:
    East Coast
    Deserves credit on everything aside from the high 1st. He got a first, we absolutely lucked into it being a top 3ish pick.

    I still don’t think the inclusions of Tierny or Demelo were good moves whatsoever, but they were warm bodies to go with the prospect (Norris) and picks we got that will likely be apart of the Sens future.
     
  17. KnuckChuckinTkachuk Give'yer balls a tug

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Messages:
    1,597
    Likes Received:
    437
    Trophy Points:
    94
    SB Cash:
    $ 300,000
    Agreed, much easier to accept a hometown discount in the US market less affected by taxes.

    Making 9 mil in Tampa Bay vs Montreal/Ottawa/Toronto is not at all the same. Can't remember the last time a star player in a Canadian market took a hometown discount tbh
     
  18. Sensung Registered User

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2017
    Messages:
    6,070
    Likes Received:
    3,155
    Trophy Points:
    101
    SB Cash:
    $ 300,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Matthews, Marner and Nylander...oh wait.
     
  19. KnuckChuckinTkachuk Give'yer balls a tug

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Messages:
    1,597
    Likes Received:
    437
    Trophy Points:
    94
    SB Cash:
    $ 300,000
    Honestly Nylander's production definitely makes it appear like a discount lol
     
  20. bert Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2002
    Messages:
    22,913
    Likes Received:
    6,235
    Trophy Points:
    232
    SB Cash:
    $ 300,000
    Home Page:
    For three quarter of one season, the previous season looked like the worst contract in the league. He also had the most dispicable playoff performance I can remember in recent history. Id want nothing to do with him at 7 million a year. TBH i really wouldnt want anyting to do with him at all. He has loads of skill and talent but he has shown he is not a competitor. Even his AHL playoff numbers are well below his AHL regular season numbers.
     
  21. bert Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2002
    Messages:
    22,913
    Likes Received:
    6,235
    Trophy Points:
    232
    SB Cash:
    $ 300,000
    Home Page:
    Ok well if management made a deal like the Duchene deal having no idea that Karlsson's position to want market value was going to impact the entire organizational plan. Then they deserve just as much critisizm, overall my point is that this was a massive blunder that has worked out for the organization purely by luck. There is no way based on the organizations actions that they had a sound and solid plan to rebuild no matter what way people try and spin it. Its one massive mistake or its another either way both visions didnt line up.
     
  22. Micklebot Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2010
    Messages:
    32,687
    Likes Received:
    9,497
    Trophy Points:
    187
    SB Cash:
    $ 300,000
    Funny part is because he held out part of that season, his cap hit for that year was actually over 10 mil, and for the following years, it's discounted by over 500k a year.

    Personally, I write off any season where a player misses training camp. As for his playoff performance, AHL included, Hossa used to get criticized for his playoffs, he's still a young kid, time will tell, but I agree, I don't think he'll ever be the clutch gritty playoff warrior if that's what you're getting at.
     
  23. KnuckChuckinTkachuk Give'yer balls a tug

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Messages:
    1,597
    Likes Received:
    437
    Trophy Points:
    94
    SB Cash:
    $ 300,000
    Maybe he was turning the corner and becoming a more mature version of himself on the ice?

    He's literally turning 24 in May and has lots of room to grow.
     
  24. Dino Tkachuk Ottawa Senators

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2009
    Messages:
    1,343
    Likes Received:
    212
    Trophy Points:
    111
    SB Cash:
    $ 300,000
    Generally I agree Bert but I'm not spinning anything. It was one blunder after another and I highlighted that in my posts. I'm not trying to make excuses for the management team and there is plenty of blame to go around.

    My point is that there was a very clear series of actions that led to the whole Karlsson situation and that Dorion did well to get what he did given the mess that him and others had created. The top 3 pick was just blind luck. As I said in a previous post, sometimes you gotta to be lucky to be good.
     
  25. bert Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2002
    Messages:
    22,913
    Likes Received:
    6,235
    Trophy Points:
    232
    SB Cash:
    $ 300,000
    Home Page:
    Hossa didnt shy away from contact he engaged, polar opposites. I actually cant think of two players that are more different in my opinion. I am talking about visually watching him give up against boston, it was almost unbelievable.

    Incredibly I cant find the entire sequence where Hrudey breaks down several of his plays giving up on the puck. I guess the leafs really do have some serious power in what is released in the media. It all stemmed from this play though

    Anyway I think yes he could engage more from a physical stand point he is a long way from developing into the complete player he can become. However when you couple it all with his history, playing style id be suprised. His social interactions also dont suggest he is the hardest guy and he doesn seem to mind that extravigant lifestyle.

    Fair enough, and agreed you need luck to be good. Hopefully this organizations luck has turned, ultimately it needs new ownership to get to the next level. If the sens end up picking 5 and 6 but get commited ownership ill gladly take that over 1, 2 and have Melnyk at the helm.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice
monitoring_string = "358c248ada348a047a4b9bb27a146148"