What Level of Credit is Due to Dorion for the Karlsson Deal?

[AchtzehnBaby]

He was so smooth and confident. We never got to see his absolute potential save for little more than one season.

that acceleration.... wow

 

[KnuckChuckinTkachuk]

I doubt very much that Norris will ever reach either Chara or Spezza's status, though Balcers, Tierney, DeMelo and a 2nd probably makes up the difference even if I'd much prefer quality over quantity.

All that said, with our own pick being so high we can get away with quantity vice quality for the 2nd "piece(s)".

But if their pick lands #1 and we get Lafreniere, it'll easily rival the Yashin for Spezza/Chara deal.

 

[KnuckChuckinTkachuk]

He was so smooth and confident. We never got to see his absolute potential save for little more than one season.

What could have been had Matt Cooke not sliced him open

 

[Micklebot]

But if their pick lands #1 and we get Lafreniere, it'll easily rival the Yashin for Spezza/Chara deal.

Is Lafreniere guaranteed to be better than Chara or Spezza? Even if he is, is he enough so to make up the difference between Norris et al vs Spezza/Chara? Don't get me wrong, he's a great prospect, but Spezza was too, and Chara is going to be a HOF dman the second he retires.

I think between our top 2 picks, we might end up with as big of an impact the Yashin trade. But, I wouldn't trade either our pick or SJs for Norris, Tierney, DeMelo, Balcers and a 2nd, at least not unless we lose on lottery day and end up in the 5 slot.

 

[NyQuil]

What could have been had Matt Cooke not sliced him open

What is sad is that most people (non-Senators fans) don't really understand that fact because of his incredible 2017 performance.

They assume he was back to where he was.

 

[Dino Tkachuk]

They traded for Duchene in November of 2017 and offered Karlsson an 8 year contract in the summer of 2018 I dont see how your definition could possibly have been the plan. People are giving management way too much credit. Trading Hoffman for negative value to appease Karlsson in the summer of 2018 also doubles down on them trying to re-sign him. Youre dealing in absolute hypotheticals based on your opinion and not using the actual facts of the situation. The entire situation showed absolutely no plan no direction until they were forced into one. The asset management that occured from trade deadline 2017 to the trade deadline in 2019 was beyond atrocious. They did not mean to do the rebuild it happened because no one wanted to re-sign here because of toxic ownership and cowardly management.

Its ok to be excited about the rebuild, I am, I love the Ottawa Senators however I am not going to casually forget what happened here. The team did a full rebuild while they traded boat loads of high end assets in their prime. Its an unprecedented situation in the NHL. Id hope after 3 straight bottom 2 finishes and trading two franchise players before their 27th birthdays along with a glutony of other valuable assets that the team has alot to look forward to.

Bottom line is as bad as Detroit was last year we've been through way worse. Sens fans deserve the first pick in this draft.

To the bold, they did trade for Duchene in November 2017 but then on December 1st (my feeling is that) the quote below changed everything.

“When I go to market, I’m going to get what I’m worth, and it’s going to be no less, no matter where I’m going,” Karlsson told the Ottawa Sun on Thursday.
That’s a strong indication of how Karlsson plans to approach what could be his final opportunity to land a monster long-term contract. The two-time Norris Trophy winner may enjoy playing in Ottawa, but he’s looking to get paid. And for a team in a smaller market that typically doesn’t keep up with the big spenders, it’s fair to wonder what it means for the future.

Erik Karlsson says he wants ‘market value’ on his next contract. How much is that? - SBNation.com

I think the bold underline text really shook a lot of people in the organization. This was the captain of your team talking, the guy who was supposed to lead your team for years to come and he had just come off a huge Stanley Cup playoff in the spring of 2017. I believe that Karlsson "walked back" a lot of that comment but at that point the damage was done and by January the team had made their decision. Everything that happened after that was fallout (i.e. Hoffman trade, Duchene trade, Stone trade) and just bad management/PR.

That said, this has been discussed ad nauseum and I'm quite confident in my interpretation of how things went down and, given all of the crazy that happened in the months leading up to the trade, Dorion did quite well for the team, lucky or otherwise.

What could have been had Matt Cooke not sliced him open

2011/12/13 Karlsson was just amazing and you knew you were witnessing something special.

 

[Sensung]

To the bold, they did trade for Duchene in November 2017 but then on December 1st (my feeling is that) the quote below changed everything.

“When I go to market, I’m going to get what I’m worth, and it’s going to be no less, no matter where I’m going,” Karlsson told the Ottawa Sun on Thursday.
That’s a strong indication of how Karlsson plans to approach what could be his final opportunity to land a monster long-term contract. The two-time Norris Trophy winner may enjoy playing in Ottawa, but he’s looking to get paid. And for a team in a smaller market that typically doesn’t keep up with the big spenders, it’s fair to wonder what it means for the future.

Erik Karlsson says he wants ‘market value’ on his next contract. How much is that? - SBNation.com

I think the bold underline text really shook a lot of people in the organization. This was the captain of your team talking, the guy who was supposed to lead your team for years to come and he had just come off a huge Stanley Cup playoff in the spring of 2017. I believe that Karlsson "walked back" a lot of that comment but at that point the damage was done and by January the team had made their decision. Everything that happened after that was fallout (i.e. Hoffman trade, Duchene trade, Stone trade) and just bad management/PR.

That said, this has been discussed ad nauseum and I'm quite confident in my interpretation of how things went down and given all of the crazy that happened in the months leading up to the trade, Dorion did quite well for the team, lucky or otherwise.


2011 Karlsson was just amazing and you knew you were witnessing something special.

Anyone in the organization who thought EK would take a hometown discount for Eugene after Melnyk screwed over Alfie is a moron and should have been fired on the spot.

 

[KnuckChuckinTkachuk]

Is Lafreniere guaranteed to be better than Chara or Spezza? Even if he is, is he enough so to make up the difference between Norris et al vs Spezza/Chara? Don't get me wrong, he's a great prospect, but Spezza was too, and Chara is going to be a HOF dman the second he retires.

I think between our top 2 picks, we might end up with as big of an impact the Yashin trade. But, I wouldn't trade either our pick or SJs for Norris, Tierney, DeMelo, Balcers and a 2nd, at least not unless we lose on lottery day and end up in the 5 slot.

Maybe not but if he leads us to the promise land and becomes that superstar winger then yes.

If Norris becomes a top 6 center with intangibles it also helps. Plus the picks (and ones we receive from trading the DeMelos/Tierney) also factor in.

Chara accomplished most his HOF career in Boston so the fact we let him go also plays a role in the impact he had for the Sens (because I'm not taking their performance for other teams into consideration). If Laf plays his next 15+ years for the Sens, it changes a lot of how the trade is perceived.

 

[BatherSeason]

Anyone in the organization who thought EK would take a hometown discount for Eugene after Melnyk screwed over Alfie is a moron and should have been fired on the spot.

At that point were there any superstars in the league taking "hometown discounts"? If so, who?

Why vilify one guy who answered a question because Drew Doughty decided to be a poop disturber?

 

[NyQuil]

At that point were there any superstars in the league taking "hometown discounts"? If so, who?

Doesn't Tampa Bay have a couple?

 

[Sensung]

At that point were there any superstars in the league taking "hometown discounts"? If so, who?

Why vilify one guy who answered a question because Drew Doughty decided to be a poop disturber?

Occassionally players will take less to help an organization gain competitive advantage. (Especially if they are up against the cap.)

Alfie sacrificed in this manner a couple of times for Sens ownership and was screwed over when it came time for his final contract.

The lesson was not lost on EK.

 

[Sensung]

Doesn't Tampa Bay have a couple?

Yup.

Team against the cap with ownership doing everything to win.

To line Eugene's pockets...no chance.

 

[NyQuil]

Yup.

Team against the cap with ownership doing everything to win.

To line Eugene's pockets...no chance.

Well, they also have a very positive tax situation in Florida.

I find it amusing that the outrage of what it means in terms of the cap only arose once Toronto ran into some trouble.

All of a sudden it's a "league-wide issue".

 

[BatherSeason]

Yup.

Team against the cap with ownership doing everything to win.

To line Eugene's pockets...no chance.

I see players wanting to help their team's cap situation (as mentioned Tampa) when your team is committed to spending and winning, but when you are a team barely over the floor with so much cap space, why would a player be expected to take a hometown discount?

 

[FormentonTheFuture]

At that point were there any superstars in the league taking "hometown discounts"? If so, who?

Why vilify one guy who answered a question because Drew Doughty decided to be a poop disturber?

Sidney Crosby (best player in the world) has taken one (a huge one actually) his entire career. Does that mean others have to? No

 

[BondraTime]

Deserves credit on everything aside from the high 1st. He got a first, we absolutely lucked into it being a top 3ish pick.

I still don’t think the inclusions of Tierny or Demelo were good moves whatsoever, but they were warm bodies to go with the prospect (Norris) and picks we got that will likely be apart of the Sens future.

 

[KnuckChuckinTkachuk]

Well, they also have a very positive tax situation in Florida.

I find it amusing that the outrage of what it means in terms of the cap only arose once Toronto ran into some trouble.

All of a sudden it's a "league-wide issue".

Agreed, much easier to accept a hometown discount in the US market less affected by taxes.

Making 9 mil in Tampa Bay vs Montreal/Ottawa/Toronto is not at all the same. Can't remember the last time a star player in a Canadian market took a hometown discount tbh

 

[Sensung]

Agreed, much easier to accept a hometown discount in the US market less affected by taxes.

Making 9 mil in Tampa Bay vs Montreal/Ottawa/Toronto is not at all the same. Can't remember the last time a star player in a Canadian market took a hometown discount tbh

Matthews, Marner and Nylander...oh wait.

 

[KnuckChuckinTkachuk]

Matthews, Marner and Nylander...oh wait.

Honestly Nylander's production definitely makes it appear like a discount lol

 

[bert]

Honestly Nylander's production definitely makes it appear like a discount lol

For three quarter of one season, the previous season looked like the worst contract in the league. He also had the most dispicable playoff performance I can remember in recent history. Id want nothing to do with him at 7 million a year. TBH i really wouldnt want anyting to do with him at all. He has loads of skill and talent but he has shown he is not a competitor. Even his AHL playoff numbers are well below his AHL regular season numbers.

 

[bert]

To the bold, they did trade for Duchene in November 2017 but then on December 1st (my feeling is that) the quote below changed everything.

“When I go to market, I’m going to get what I’m worth, and it’s going to be no less, no matter where I’m going,” Karlsson told the Ottawa Sun on Thursday.
That’s a strong indication of how Karlsson plans to approach what could be his final opportunity to land a monster long-term contract. The two-time Norris Trophy winner may enjoy playing in Ottawa, but he’s looking to get paid. And for a team in a smaller market that typically doesn’t keep up with the big spenders, it’s fair to wonder what it means for the future.

Erik Karlsson says he wants ‘market value’ on his next contract. How much is that? - SBNation.com

I think the bold underline text really shook a lot of people in the organization. This was the captain of your team talking, the guy who was supposed to lead your team for years to come and he had just come off a huge Stanley Cup playoff in the spring of 2017. I believe that Karlsson "walked back" a lot of that comment but at that point the damage was done and by January the team had made their decision. Everything that happened after that was fallout (i.e. Hoffman trade, Duchene trade, Stone trade) and just bad management/PR.

That said, this has been discussed ad nauseum and I'm quite confident in my interpretation of how things went down and, given all of the crazy that happened in the months leading up to the trade, Dorion did quite well for the team, lucky or otherwise.


2011/12/13 Karlsson was just amazing and you knew you were witnessing something special.

Ok well if management made a deal like the Duchene deal having no idea that Karlsson's position to want market value was going to impact the entire organizational plan. Then they deserve just as much critisizm, overall my point is that this was a massive blunder that has worked out for the organization purely by luck. There is no way based on the organizations actions that they had a sound and solid plan to rebuild no matter what way people try and spin it. Its one massive mistake or its another either way both visions didnt line up.

 

[Micklebot]

For three quarter of one season, the previous season looked like the worst contract in the league. He also had the most dispicable playoff performance I can remember in recent history. Id want nothing to do with him at 7 million a year. TBH i really wouldnt want anyting to do with him at all. He has loads of skill and talent but he has shown he is not a competitor. Even his AHL playoff numbers are well below his AHL regular season numbers.

Funny part is because he held out part of that season, his cap hit for that year was actually over 10 mil, and for the following years, it's discounted by over 500k a year.

Personally, I write off any season where a player misses training camp. As for his playoff performance, AHL included, Hossa used to get criticized for his playoffs, he's still a young kid, time will tell, but I agree, I don't think he'll ever be the clutch gritty playoff warrior if that's what you're getting at.

 

[KnuckChuckinTkachuk]

For three quarter of one season, the previous season looked like the worst contract in the league. He also had the most dispicable playoff performance I can remember in recent history. Id want nothing to do with him at 7 million a year. TBH i really wouldnt want anyting to do with him at all. He has loads of skill and talent but he has shown he is not a competitor. Even his AHL playoff numbers are well below his AHL regular season numbers.

Maybe he was turning the corner and becoming a more mature version of himself on the ice?

He's literally turning 24 in May and has lots of room to grow.

 

[Dino Tkachuk]

Ok well if management made a deal like the Duchene deal having no idea that Karlsson's position to want market value was going to impact the entire organizational plan. Then they deserve just as much critisizm, overall my point is that this was a massive blunder that has worked out for the organization purely by luck. There is no way based on the organizations actions that they had a sound and solid plan to rebuild no matter what way people try and spin it. Its one massive mistake or its another either way both visions didnt line up.

Generally I agree Bert but I'm not spinning anything. It was one blunder after another and I highlighted that in my posts. I'm not trying to make excuses for the management team and there is plenty of blame to go around.

My point is that there was a very clear series of actions that led to the whole Karlsson situation and that Dorion did well to get what he did given the mess that him and others had created. The top 3 pick was just blind luck. As I said in a previous post, sometimes you gotta to be lucky to be good.

 

[bert]

Funny part is because he held out part of that season, his cap hit for that year was actually over 10 mil, and for the following years, it's discounted by over 500k a year.

Personally, I write off any season where a player misses training camp. As for his playoff performance, AHL included, Hossa used to get criticized for his playoffs, he's still a young kid, time will tell, but I agree, I don't think he'll ever be the clutch gritty playoff warrior if that's what you're getting at.

Hossa didnt shy away from contact he engaged, polar opposites. I actually cant think of two players that are more different in my opinion. I am talking about visually watching him give up against boston, it was almost unbelievable.

Incredibly I cant find the entire sequence where Hrudey breaks down several of his plays giving up on the puck. I guess the leafs really do have some serious power in what is released in the media. It all stemmed from this play though

Anyway I think yes he could engage more from a physical stand point he is a long way from developing into the complete player he can become. However when you couple it all with his history, playing style id be suprised. His social interactions also dont suggest he is the hardest guy and he doesn seem to mind that extravigant lifestyle.

Generally I agree Bert but I'm not spinning anything. It was one blunder after another and I highlighted that in my posts. I'm not trying to make excuses for the management team and there is plenty of blame to go around.

My point is that there was a very clear series of actions that led to the whole Karlsson situation and that Dorion did well to get what he did given the mess that him and others had created. The top 3 pick was just blind luck. As I said in a previous post, sometimes you gotta to be lucky to be good.

Fair enough, and agreed you need luck to be good. Hopefully this organizations luck has turned, ultimately it needs new ownership to get to the next level. If the sens end up picking 5 and 6 but get commited ownership ill gladly take that over 1, 2 and have Melnyk at the helm.