What does your Rebuild Roster look like in 3 years?

[Habs Halifax]

Ummm... right now Lekkonen looks like more of a potential bust than a top 6 player...
DLR is at best a 4th liner which is a disappointment.
Mete, Juulsen, Scherbak could all go either way. Mete is off to a good start but he is seriously undersized for a D.

Also you mentioned above what we could GET for Alzner? I think you need to be realistic. You want to move Alzner it's about what else we are willing to GIVE. We are not getting for him....

- I think Lehkonen is a good middle 6 asset. He had an injury season and far from bust.
- DLR is a bottom 6 player but he is much better than you are willing to admit. I like his size and compete level. We saw that part of his game after Pleky was traded and he got more ice time with better players. Vejdemo is a similar player IMO.
- Mete, Juulsen, Scherbak are all very solid prospects that any team would love to have. I do agree with your size concerns with Mete though.
- Alzner is a decent 3rd pairing D man. Problem is we are paying him as a top 4D. 4 years left from age 30-33 at $4.625M. It's not impossible to move and we don't have to trade a major asset on top of him to make the deal work. We were not the only team interested in signing him and he can be moved.

 

[Harry22]

- I think Lehkonen is a good middle 6 asset. He had an injury season and far from bust.
- DLR is a bottom 6 player but he is much better than you are willing to admit. I like his size and compete level. We saw that part of his game after Pleky was traded and he got more ice time with better players. Vejdemo is a similar player IMO.
- Mete, Juulsen, Scherbak are all very solid prospects that any team would love to have. I do agree with your size concerns with Mete though.

Most team have those propsects. What you don't get is the Habs mostly have dime a dozen prospects that most NHL teams have. What sets teams apart is the top end talent, which the Habs are severely lacking in.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Most team have those propsects. What you don't get is the Habs mostly have dime a dozen prospects that most NHL teams have. What sets teams apart is the top end talent, which the Habs are severely lacking in.

You want to know what you don't get? All team have prospects but not all teams evaluate their prospects like you do.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I don't see any players being called a bust in the post that you're replying to. A few "too early" comments, which isn't the same thing.

I like how the tone has changed with prospects like Lehkonen, Mete, Scherbak, Juulsen, Hudon over the last 12-24 months. The general comment before they are on our Habs roster is they are likely busts and now it has changed to "too early". You missed my point. The point is we are beyond the ripple effects from the 2008-2011 draft years. We have been and we are turning the corner with drafting and developing. It takes time to recover from one of the worse 4 year spans of drafting you will ever see. 8 top 100 picks and only Gallagher to show for it. Do you know how bad that is and how this affects your ability to improve your roster moving forward? I'm pretty sure you don't! We were forced to improve by trades and free agent signings which don't work and it didn't work.

Takes 3-5 years to draft and develop most prospects. We are turning the corner but we need more grade A type prospects. Drafting from 1-15 vs 25-30 helps!

 

[Habs Halifax]

You are totally off and won't take off your rose colored glasses. A good GM does not trade a top flight dman prospect knowing his defence is extremely thin already and has no puck moving defenseman. He does not compound that error by trading said dman for a whinny winger who he wants to play center when the team needs a real center.

He gave up two picks for Shaw and then overpaid him. He then got two lower picks for Eller who would be better to have than Shaw.

Signing contracts like Alzner's and Price's is mortgaging our future in today's NHL with a cap. I love Price, amazing goalie but making the hard choice of trading him instead of giving him $10.5M a year for 8 years, too much for a goalie no matter how good, was I guess beyond him. And Alzner's deal is just plain dumb. An average dman who is already breaking down physically and will only get worse with each passing year.

So making a projection on a lineup, that in your case has a ton of draft picks that the Habs likely will not even have on the table at those picks (other than at 3rd overall) is really pointless. It becomes even more pointless when you consider how volatile the GM can be with his moves.

Your OP shows your best case scenario that does not take many factors into question.

See... it's become a Bergevin thread. Who is the one who is off? Now, turn your focus to how bad our prospects are. So much fun.

 

[Habs Halifax]

We have a better chance at signing Tavares than Alzner suddenly having a turnaround. He has steadily declined... and that was before Bergevin went full idiot and signed him.

I don't think Alzner has declined. I think he is who is he is and we gave too much term and AAV in that contract. The game got faster and the Alzner and Benn types are a dieing breed based on how the NHL is trending.

 

[Harry22]

You want to know what you don't get? All team have prospects but not all teams evaluate their prospects like you do.

You are probably the only Habs fan that thinks our prospect pool is decent. It's not. Results in the next few years will show it.

 

[Habs Halifax]

You are probably the only Habs fan that thinks our prospect pool is decent. It's not. Results in the next few years will show it.

It's a measure on how they have produced vs the rest of the league. You are comparing us to a top 10 team prospect pool and duh, we are not ranked in that range. I do think we are middle of the pack ish but depends on how good guys get. This applies to each and every team. Our draft picks from 2012 and forward have done much better than you know when you compare them to the rest of the league.

2012-2017 draft picks production in the NHL (stats calculated Dec or 2017):
- With Galchenyuk, we are ranked 7th in pts/game and 9th in points
- Removing each teams best pick (Galchenyuk with the Habs), we are ranked middle of the pack.

Let me guess... Guys like Mete, Juulsen, Lehkonen, Hudon, Scherbak will never get better. They will get worse. I will repeat my last post reply... No team treats their prospects like you do! And no, you are wrong about I am the only one. I am one of the few who are willing to stand up against your overall negative attitude though

 

[habsfan909]

I don't think Alzner has declined. I think he is who is he is and we gave too much term and AAV in that contract. The game got faster and the Alzner and Benn types are a dieing breed based on how the NHL is trending.

Alzner has declined and he is way too slow. There is a reason Washington didn't use him in the playoffs. Why in the world our GM would jump to sign (and grossly overpay) a player deemed not good enough is just something else.
The team's hand was forced a bit but Benn is terrible and Pateryn has become pretty solid.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Alzner has declined and he is way too slow. There is a reason Washington didn't use him in the playoffs. Why in the world our GM would jump to sign (and grossly overpay) a player deemed not good enough is just something else.
The team's hand was forced a bit but Benn is terrible and Pateryn has become pretty solid.

Disagree about the decline. I think he is the same defenseman today vs 2 or 3 years ago. The game has gotten faster and the Alzner type is a dieing breed. They guy is not an elite skater or has any offensive ability. That hasn't changed. It's just a bad contract. Too much term and too much $.

 

[habsfan909]

- I think Lehkonen is a good middle 6 asset. He had an injury season and far from bust.
- DLR is a bottom 6 player but he is much better than you are willing to admit. I like his size and compete level. We saw that part of his game after Pleky was traded and he got more ice time with better players. Vejdemo is a similar player IMO.
- Mete, Juulsen, Scherbak are all very solid prospects that any team would love to have. I do agree with your size concerns with Mete though.
- Alzner is a decent 3rd pairing D man. Problem is we are paying him as a top 4D. 4 years left from age 30-33 at $4.625M. It's not impossible to move and we don't have to trade a major asset on top of him to make the deal work. We were not the only team interested in signing him and he can be moved.

Alzner is horrible. Nobody is going to trade for him without us including a draft pick. NOBODY. The only GM as dumb as ours is Chiarelli and even he wouldn't trade for him.
M-J-S are all nice prospects but none of them are top end. They're all middle range and every team has those. Unfortunately for the Habs - those are our top prospects.

 

[habsfan909]

Disagree about the decline. I think he is the same defenseman today vs 2 or 3 years ago. The game has gotten faster and the Alzner type is a dieing breed. They guy is not an elite skater or has any offensive ability. That hasn't changed. It's just a bad contract. Too much term and too much $.

We're arguing about nothing. Whether he has declined or his game is no longer suitable for the NHL or a combination of both - it makes no difference. Either way, he is an ineffective player who doesn't even belong on our 4th pairing. That's right the one that doesn't exist.

 

[Habs]

You are probably the only Habs fan that thinks our prospect pool is decent. It's not. Results in the next few years will show it.

It is generally agreed we have one of the weakest prospect pools in the NHL, it isn't even a debate.

 

[Habs Halifax]

We're arguing about nothing. Whether he has declined or his game is no longer suitable for the NHL or a combination of both - it makes no difference. Either way, he is an ineffective player who doesn't even belong on our 4th pairing. That's right the one that doesn't exist.

I have concerns about Alzner just like you do but I'm not the type to throw people under the bus. I think he is a good 3rd pairing guy and you disagree. I think his contract is bad in term and AAV and I think he is who he is and the game got faster with less clutching and grabbing where he was good at one point. I also don't think he is impossible to move. Definitely not easy but not impossible.

 

[Habs Halifax]

It is generally agreed we have one of the weakest prospect pools in the NHL, it isn't even a debate.

Based on what? How are you measuring it? You can't just say something with no material to back it up and how it compares to all other 30 NHL teams. That's propaganda

How do you explain that our draft picks from 2012 and on are ranked 7th in pts/game and 9th in pts compared to all other teams equally? This doesn't sound like one of the worse prospect pools in the NHL to me. The ripple effects from 2008-2011 are still peoples mind. That is clear to me

 

[Habs]

Based on what? How are you measuring it? You can't just say something with no material to back it up and how it compares to all other 30 NHL teams. That's propaganda

How do you explain that our draft picks from 2012 and on are ranked 7th in pts/game and 9th in pts compared to all other teams equally? This doesn't sound like one of the worse prospect pools in the NHL to me. The ripple effects from 2008-2011 are still peoples mind. That is clear to me

based on global prospect rankings, and general musings online. The cupboard is bare, they have to fill it this year. Your prospects from 2012 are graduated, or should be at this point. Look at what is in the system, it isn't much. Look at the world jr hockey championship, we hardly have anyone playing the last 3 years.

Top team prospect rankings - the hockey writers
montreal ranks 27th in prospects - dobbs

 

[Habs Halifax]

based on global prospect rankings, and general musings online. The cupboard is bare, they have to fill it this year. Your prospects from 2012 are graduated, or should be at this point. Look at what is in the system, it isn't much. Look at the world jr hockey championship, we hardly have anyone playing the last 3 years.

Top team prospect rankings - the hockey writers
montreal ranks 27th in prospects - dobbs

A couple of points...

1. Those are rankings from last September. A lot happened since then. Where is your updated report or are you waiting for another report to come out so you can follow it like a sheep?

2. The hockey writers report is done by someone who covers the Leafs. He has the Leafs ranked 9th and the Sens and Habs ranked 27th and 28th. Wake up call buddy! Mathews, Marner, and Nylander are graduated. And I have the Sens as a fringe top 10 team. It's some person wildest guess and it's way more easier to nail down the top 10 vs the 11-31 range. There is no way the Leafs should be ranked 9th and the Sens ranked 27th. Think about that for a minute!

3. My system is not based on future prediction or opinion where Thomas will be a #1C and Poehling will be a #3C. It eliminates bias opinion and measures actual results. Based on what I have calculated and gathered by each and every team, I have the Habs in the middle of the pack. Nothing to brag about as we lack grade A prospects but it's no reason to throw them under the bus like most do. The ripple effects of the 2008-2011 draft years are still affecting peoples opinions. Takes time to change this

Seriously... Explain this please?
- 23 top 100 picks from 2012-2017 (ranking 4th)
- 7th in pts/game
- 9th in points

Is this because of Galchenyuk? Well, I evaluated this too. I took every teams best producing pick from 2012 forward and we ranked middle of the pack. This is how I came to my conclusion and I'm firm on it. I did my homework and I didn't just Google someone's ranking where it's an opinion and wild guess moving forward. It's measures the actual results once they turn pro

IMO, based on actual results and the impact Galchenyuk has on our rankings, I have us somewhere in the middle of the pack range in team rankings. Trends of actual results prove this. Will we rise or fall moving forward? Not sure but I will be tracking it.

 

[Habs]

A couple of points...

1. Those are rankings from last September. A lot happened since then. Where is your updated report or are you waiting for another report to come out so you can follow it like a sheep?

2. The hockey writers report is done by someone who covers the Leafs. He has the Leafs ranked 9th and the Sens and Habs ranked 27th and 28th. Wake up call buddy! Mathews, Marner, and Nylander are graduated. And I have the Sens as a fringe top 10 team. It's some person wildest guess and it's way more easier to nail down the top 10 vs the 11-31 range. There is no way the Leafs should be ranked 9th and the Sens ranked 27th. Think about that for a minute!

3. My system is not based on future prediction or opinion where Thomas will be a #1C and Poehling will be a #3C. It eliminates bias opinion and measures actual results. Based on what I have calculated and gathered by each and every team, I have the Habs in the middle of the pack. Nothing to brag about as we lack grade A prospects but it's no reason to throw them under the bus like most do. The ripple effects of the 2008-2011 draft years are still affecting peoples opinions. Takes time to change this

Seriously... Explain this please?
- 23 top 100 picks from 2012-2017 (ranking 4th)
- 7th in pts/game
- 9th in points

Is this because of Galchenyuk? Well, I evaluated this too. I took every teams best producing pick from 2012 forward and we ranked middle of the pack. This is how I came to my conclusion and I'm firm on it. I did my homework and I didn't just Google someone's ranking where it's an opinion and wild guess moving forward. It's measures the actual results once they turn pro

IMO, based on actual results and the impact Galchenyuk has on our rankings, I have us somewhere in the middle of the pack range in team rankings. Trends of actual results prove this. Will we rise or fall moving forward? Not sure but I will be tracking it.

I'm not going to win this argument, so cool story bro.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I'm not going to win this argument, so cool story bro.

One opinion vs another. I also asked twice... explain the actual results of our picks from 2012 and on and what they have done in the NHL? Or are you avoiding it? I'm not trying to give you a hard time. I just don't agree with opinion rankings where someone thinks Thomas is a future #1C and Poehling is a #3C and the report is done by a Leafs fan. Understand where I am coming from?

Totally agree with you. The general trend of what people "think" is we suck. But I showed you my reasons why I am against it.

1) Ripple effects from the 2008-2011 draft years takes years to overcome. It was a horrible 4 year span so I guess I understand why people think we suck at drafting.

2) Future Prediction/Opinions vs Actual measurable results. I eliminated bias opinion from the equation. I really do think we are middle of the pack and we should get better after this next draft but the results will take time.

 

[Kent Nilsson]

I like how the tone has changed with prospects like Lehkonen, Mete, Scherbak, Juulsen, Hudon over the last 12-24 months. The general comment before they are on our Habs roster is they are likely busts and now it has changed to "too early". You missed my point. The point is we are beyond the ripple effects from the 2008-2011 draft years. We have been and we are turning the corner with drafting and developing. It takes time to recover from one of the worse 4 year spans of drafting you will ever see. 8 top 100 picks and only Gallagher to show for it. Do you know how bad that is and how this affects your ability to improve your roster moving forward? I'm pretty sure you don't! We were forced to improve by trades and free agent signings which don't work and it didn't work.

Takes 3-5 years to draft and develop most prospects. We are turning the corner but we need more grade A type prospects. Drafting from 1-15 vs 25-30 helps!

These "glass is half full" names just used to be Leblanc, Tinordi, Beaulieu, Kristo etc. Fact is we're pretty bad at drafting. Good players from Scherbak and Juulsen draft years are alrready impact players in NHL. Hudon and Lehkonen are dime a dozen players.

Teams with prospect pools as bad as ours are mostly cup contenders like Washington/Pittsburgh. Boston, Tampa, Columbus, New Jersey, Philadelphia, Toronto, Florida, Carolina, Buffalo all have multiple elite young players while we're about to draft our only one. We're not even a middle of the pack team in the East and we're stuck with a ridiculous amount of awful contracts. This team is a ruin.

 

[Habs Halifax]

These "glass is half full" names just used to be Leblanc, Tinordi, Beaulieu, Kristo etc. Fact is we're pretty bad at drafting. Good players from Scherbak and Juulsen draft years are alrready impact players in NHL. Hudon and Lehkonen are dime a dozen players.

Teams with prospect pools as bad as ours are mostly cup contenders like Washington/Pittsburgh. Boston, Tampa, Columbus, New Jersey, Philadelphia, Toronto, Florida, Carolina, Buffalo all have multiple elite young players while we're about to draft our only one. We're not even a middle of the pack team in the East and we're stuck with a ridiculous amount of awful contracts. This team is a ruin.

I much rather have our prospect pool today vs what we had with Leblanc, Tinordi, Beaulieu, Kristo. The problem with the "etc" is there is major drop off after these guys back when. Quantity and Quality was lacking due to only 8 top 100 picks from 2008-2011. We got extremely lucky with Gallagher

As far as guys like Scherbak and Juulsen and how they compared to others already making impacts. Well how does our stats of 7th in pts/game since 2012 relate to this? And as I said, remove Galchenyuk and each teams best producing pick, we are still middle of the pack? I think you are looking at Pasternak which is a rare case.

For a team that has had 23 top 100 picks and most of our picks was 25+ in the 1st round, We are on par to where we should be based on where we drafted.... Middle of the pack. Not bragging cause we lack grade A type prospects. I just don't think we are one of the worse like most think we are. The actual stats that our picks are producing prove we are not one of the worse. This is my opinion backed up with solid stats and how they compare equally to each and every team. And I think after this next draft, we get even more of a boast but the results will take time. Most prospects take 3-5 years to even make the NHL after being drafted.

 

[Habs]

One opinion vs another. I also asked twice... explain the actual results of our picks from 2012 and on and what they have done in the NHL? Or are you avoiding it? I'm not trying to give you a hard time. I just don't agree with opinion rankings where someone thinks Thomas is a future #1C and Poehling is a #3C and the report is done by a Leafs fan. Understand where I am coming from?

Totally agree with you. The general trend of what people "think" is we suck. But I showed you my reasons why I am against it.

1) Ripple effects from the 2008-2011 draft years takes years to overcome. It was a horrible 4 year span so I guess I understand why people think we suck at drafting.

2) Future Prediction/Opinions vs Actual measurable results. I eliminated bias opinion from the equation. I really do think we are middle of the pack and we should get better after this next draft but the results will take time.

I can look at our prospect pool, and determine if it is good or not by various means. However, I do tend to use the showing at the WJC for a measuring stick, and when all we can send is Mete/Poehlng , it isn't good. We lack depth in the Euro side of things, and to be honest I don't care for our pro scouts all that much. I'm not that big on Mete, and Poehling could be a 2-3 C one day, he isn't that highly coveted around the junior ranks. We have goaltending depth, that is about it.

We have lots of prospects that fill the depth role, but no real top end players that are coming down the pipeline. I'm not that big on Sherbak either , don't care for his game away from the puck, and we have enough perimeter players without him.

They can fix a lot this year, but we probably need 2 bad years to stock the prospect cupboard.

 

[Kent Nilsson]

I much rather have our prospect pool today vs what we had with Leblanc, Tinordi, Beaulieu, Kristo. The problem with the "etc" is there is major drop off after these guys back when. Quantity and Quality was lacking due to only 8 top 100 picks from 2008-2011. We got extremely lucky with Gallagher

As far as guys like Scherbak and Juulsen and how they compared to others already making impacts. Well how does our stats of 7th in pts/game since 2012 relate to this? And as I said, remove Galchenyuk and each teams best producing pick, we are still middle of the pack? I think you are looking at Pasternak which is a rare case.

For a team that has had 23 top 100 picks and most of our picks was 25+ in the 1st round, We are on par to where we should be based on where we drafted.... Middle of the pack. Not bragging cause we lack grade A type prospects. I just don't think we are one of the worse like most think we are. The actual stats that our picks are producing prove we are not one of the worse. This is my opinion backed up with solid stats and how they compare equally to each and every team. And I think after this next draft, we get even more of a boast but the results will take time. Most prospects take 3-5 years to even make the NHL after being drafted.

The difference is just that the prospects of today are yet to bust for most of them.

Its the same bs "data" you always come up with thats relevant in a world where teams only have players from 2012 and 2013 and defensemen are measured by points.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I can look at our prospect pool, and determine if it is good or not by various means. However, I do tend to use the showing at the WJC for a measuring stick, and when all we can send is Mete/Poehlng , it isn't good. We lack depth in the Euro side of things, and to be honest I don't care for our pro scouts all that much. I'm not that big on Mete, and Poehling could be a 2-3 C one day, he isn't that highly coveted around the junior ranks. We have goaltending depth, that is about it.

We have lots of prospects that fill the depth role, but no real top end players that are coming down the pipeline. I'm not that big on Sherbak either , don't care for his game away from the puck, and we have enough perimeter players without him.

They can fix a lot this year, but we probably need 2 bad years to stock the prospect cupboard.

You still avoid the actual stats I presented you... 7th in pts/game with our picks since 2012 when compared to all other teams under the same exact period in time.

So in effect, your evaluation is a gut feel and you don't know how our situation stacks up against all other teams. I understand where your coming from now.

 

[Habs Halifax]

The difference is just that the prospects of today are yet to bust for most of them.

Its the same bs "data" you always come up with thats relevant in a world where teams only have players from 2012 and 2013 and defensemen are measured by points.

No, the difference today is quantity. Quality is still lacking as we need grade A prospects back when and today. Today, we have quantity and there will be more surprises like Mete. The more darts you have in the top 100, the more you will hit. It's not rocket science