Silver Seven What Do You Do With Logan Brown?

[Alfie11]

Basically this.

We have a horrible team and some prospects. The team should be adding two top (top 6F/top 4D) prospects at the next draft. Just get the prospects into camp and let them compete.

There's no need to overthink about how guys fit and if some should be moved. We have a bunch of guys, lots won't make it and you can't be sure which guys will make it. Let their play decide. I don't care which particular guys make it and which guys don't, as long as the team is competitive in a couple of years.

Brown has put up numbers in the AHL, so he has shown some promise. If he busts then it happens.

We don't have any guaranteed top six centres right now and there's nothing to lose by staying the course.

 

[Micklebot]

Side note: Brown went back to the AHL in late December. The same time Duclair's slump started. Not a causation by any means but there's gotta be some correlation there.

Duclair scored 10 pts in 143 mins all situations, 7 pts in ~115 of 5v5, skating with L.Brown, which is his best pts/60 with any center either strength by a good margin. L.Brown only played 219 mins at 5v5 total, and 270 at any strength.

Underlying numbers were far better too, though I imagine we would have been sheltering the young center.

 

[Sweatred]

Basically this.

We have a horrible team and some prospects. The team should be adding two top (top 6F/top 4D) prospects at the next draft. Just get the prospects into camp and let them compete.

There's no need to overthink about how guys fit and if some should be moved. We have a bunch of guys, lots won't make it and you can't be sure which guys will make it. Let their play decide. I don't care which particular guys make it and which guys don't, as long as the team is competitive in a couple of years.

Brown has put up numbers in the AHL, so he has shown some promise. If he busts then it happens.

I agree but this organization hasn’t let internal competition filter the prospects. What your suggesting would be a dramatic shift.

1. White was gifted a spot and a contract with very little AHL development or competition. Abramov has more PPG than White in the AHL. For the most part he kept his minutes all season.

2. Brown / Bath have been given short segments of games and limited ice time and forced to dominate the AHL. When they struggle they’ve been sent back.

3. Norris was given a game while dominating the AHL.

4. Chaplik and Balcers have been given limited minutes while out playing some of our one way contract players.

5. Abramov and Formenton have been held back while putting up pretty good numbers around .85 PPG.

Arti and Ryan should be used to insulate and mentor the young players. They don’t need guaranteed spots in the lineup.

 

[FormentonTheFuture]

I'd call out a key difference:

Mark Stone could never get by on talent alone and had to bust his ass to improve to the point where he was a legitimate NHL player. His work ethic, dedication and effort-level were second to none.

Logan Brown has incredible natural ability and size, and has been able to coast through different levels and still produce. His work ethic, dedication to training and pace were questioned in his draft year, and continue to be four years later.

He put in a lot of work last offseason

 

[Sensung]

Logan hit peak height velocity much later and longer than many of his peers. On the advice of professional trainers his father intentionally held him back on his training to accommodate the late growth spurt and take advantage of the later training window it would provide.

All reports are that he has been training diligently over the past couple of off seasons. We should see this pay off this season.

 

[L'Aveuglette]

Stay the course, have him up in the NHL for reasonably long stints and if he shines, he stays.

 

[Cosmix]

I'd call out a key difference:

Mark Stone could never get by on talent alone and had to bust his ass to improve to the point where he was a legitimate NHL player. His work ethic, dedication and effort-level were second to none.

Logan Brown has incredible natural ability and size, and has been able to coast through different levels and still produce. His work ethic, dedication to training and pace were questioned in his draft year, and continue to be four years later.

Hopefully Logan Brown will make the Senators next season but I think he has been a little slow coming. Hopefully he will not be like John William Kiszkan who did not make his NHL debut until age 29.

 

[Micklebot]

Hopefully Logan Brown will make the Senators next season but I think he has been a little slow coming. Hopefully he will not be like John William Kiszkan who did not make his NHL debut until age 29.

I'll be patient if he develops into a hall of famer like Kiszkan did

 

[Adele Dazeem]

I think Chaplik and White go before Brown.

Chlapik hasn't been anything special. He will most likely get buried in the AHL; I doubt any team is looking at him.
White signed a long term deal, they won't let him go just yet; and he's more suited to play on the bottom-6 in order to make room for more gifted forwards such as (Byfield? Stutzle? Pinto? Norris?)

 

[bert]

Chlapik hasn't been anything special. He will most likely get buried in the AHL; I doubt any team is looking at him.
White signed a long term deal, they won't let him go just yet; and he's more suited to play on the bottom-6 in order to make room for more gifted forwards such as (Byfield? Stutzle? Pinto? Norris?)

Dont agree Chlapik has done more with his limited opportunity than say Balcers and can actually play a bottom 6 role.

 

[Sweatred]

Chlapik hasn't been anything special. He will most likely get buried in the AHL; I doubt any team is looking at him.
White signed a long term deal, they won't let him go just yet; and he's more suited to play on the bottom-6 in order to make room for more gifted forwards such as (Byfield? Stutzle? Pinto? Norris?)

I agree that White will get a free pass over Chaplik however I think Chaplik was marginally better than White last year and much more suited for a bottom 6 roll.

He is stronger and more reliable with the puck and willing to play physical when needed. He had 2.5 hits a game vs White’s 0.6. That is close to 3rd on the team and in limited ice time.

 

[Sensung]

I agree that White will get a free pass over Chaplik however I think Chaplik was marginally better than White last year and much more suited for a bottom 6 roll.

He is stronger and more reliable with the puck and willing to play physical when needed. He had 2.5 hits a game vs White’s 0.6. That is close to 3rd on the team and in limited ice time.

Hit stats are useless.

Chlapik knows he must "play physical" to satisfy our lunch bucket coach and stay in the line up, so he forgets about using his talent and just runs around looking for hits to please DJ.

 

[DrSense]

Hit stats are useless.

Chlapik knows he must "play physical" to satisfy our lunch bucket coach and stay in the line up, so he forgets about using his talent and just runs around looking for hits to please DJ.

To be honest, White could benefit by watching the way Chlapik plays and understand that playing that way will get you more ice time and help you be seen as a more versatile player. If White is losing most of his draws, not putting up points, being a minus player AND not playing physical, then it becomes really hard to play him.

Regardless, Chlapik has decent skill, so if he can develop his bottom 6 energy and physicality, then he has a chance to evolve into a really good checking line center. He is someone I'd really like to see in this role a bit more this season to see if we have a potential elite role player in Chlapik. White might be a bit more suited as a complimentary right winger in our top 9, but unclear where he is going to fit still obviously.

 

[Sweatred]

To be honest, White could benefit by watching the way Chlapik plays and understand that playing that way will get you more ice time and help you be seen as a more versatile player. If White is losing most of his draws, not putting up points, being a minus player AND not playing physical, then it becomes really hard to play him.

Regardless, Chlapik has decent skill, so if he can develop his bottom 6 energy and physicality, then he has a chance to evolve into a really good checking line center. He is someone I'd really like to see in this role a bit more this season to see if we have a potential elite role player in Chlapik. White might be a bit more suited as a complimentary right winger in our top 9, but unclear where he is going to fit still obviously.

In theory you are 100% correct but White was gifted twice the average ice time per game vs Chaplik and only about :30 less than his 2018-19 season. Logan Brown averaged about 5:00 min less a game than White.

So after dominating the AHL Brown gets 11:00 min a game and White gets 16:00 min after scoring .6 PPG in the AHL.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

In theory you are 100% correct but White was gifted twice the average ice time per game vs Chaplik and only about :30 less than his 2018-19 season. Logan Brown averaged about 5:00 min less a game than White.

So after dominating the AHL Brown gets 11:00 min a game and White gets 16:00 min after scoring .6 PPG in the AHL.

I never realized they allocated icetime in the NHL based on points scored in the AHL regardless of the makeup of the AHL team, the coaching and situations played in in the AHL.

 

[Sweatred]

I never realized they allocated icetime in the NHL based on points scored in the AHL regardless of the makeup of the AHL team, the coaching and situations played in in the AHL.

I never realized I claimed they did ? I think there is room to acknowledge that White has had his pathway “snowplowed” while Brown etc have been held much more accountable to a higher standard.

White wasn’t even good at the 2018 training camp.

I don’t really buy the “weak team excuse”. If Brown is the 1C in Belleville this year I bet he puts up 1.0PPG plus without Norris/Bath.

Im curious if the decisions to rush prospects like Lajoie and White was a Boucher thing trying to compete/failure to recognize or a PD thing.

 

[lancepitlick]

For those saying not all prospects given a fair shot as some given more chances than others despite similar stats etc.

The emphasis is on development. If management thinks there is something you need to work on at a lower level, they may keep you there even if you are putting up points.

A guy like White is more well rounded and has less to improve physcially or on ice. He's reached sink or swim time. Others may not, even if better at the AHL.

 

[Micklebot]

I never realized I claimed they did ? I think there is room to acknowledge that White has had his pathway “snowplowed” while Brown etc have been held much more accountable to a higher standard.

White wasn’t even good at the 2018 training camp.

I don’t really buy the “weak team excuse”. If Brown is the 1C in Belleville this year I bet he puts up 1.0PPG plus without Norris/Bath.

Im curious if the decisions to rush prospects like Lajoie and White was a Boucher thing trying to compete/failure to recognize or a PD thing.

I think it's more likely that the teams coaches (Boucher vs DJ Smith), yourself, and the GM just had a different evaluations of White and L.Brown.

In fact, I think based on the contract he signed, it's damn near a guarantee that the GM and coaches had a far higher opinion White than you do.

 

[Sweatred]

I think it's more likely that the teams coaches (Boucher vs DJ Smith), yourself, and the GM just had a different evaluations of White and L.Brown.

In fact, I think based on the contract he signed, it's damn near a guarantee that the GM and coaches had a far higher opinion White than you do.

No kidding. It’s pretty clear what DJ thinks of Lajoie too. I assume without the contract White may have folllowrd Jaros and Lajoie. But hey, lots of people here like White’s game. Personally, I can’t connect with what they like about what he provides or how he has been handled.

 

[Micklebot]

In theory you are 100% correct but White was gifted twice the average ice time per game vs Chaplik and only about :30 less than his 2018-19 season. Logan Brown averaged about 5:00 min less a game than White.

So after dominating the AHL Brown gets 11:00 min a game and White gets 16:00 min after scoring .6 PPG in the AHL.

White got 16 mins a night while scoring 41 pts in 71 games as a rookie in the NHL, actually. He started off averaging less, and saw his icetime increase as the season went on.

 

[Micklebot]

No kidding. It’s pretty clear what DJ thinks of Lajoie too. I assume without the contract White may have folllowrd Jaros and Lajoie. But hey, lots of people here like White’s game. Personally, I can’t connect with what they like about what he provides or how he has been handled.

Lajoie isn't the same player he was when he first cracked the team under Boucher. He had a sports hernia requiring surgery and his skating never really recovered. We kept him up too long hoping it would get better on it's own, and it didn't. Not really fair to compare Boucher's evaluation of a healthy Lajoie to Smith evaluation of Lajoie after that injury imo, kind of like comparing Murray's evaluation of Spezza vs Babcocks.

 

[SAK11]

White got 16 mins a night while scoring 41 pts in 71 games as a rookie in the NHL, actually. He started off averaging less, and saw his icetime increase as the season went on.

There were plenty of people who didn't think White earned his spot after his preseason that year. Chlapik was just as good at the AHL level the year before and many thought he was better in the preseason, but White got the spot. It reminded me this year of Batherson getting a spot out of camp this year despite a less than stellar preseason. In Batherson's case, he didn't do much with his opportunity to start the year (only got 2 games). White, though, scored 2 points in the 1st game of the year, had 6 points in the first 9 games, then had a really nice month of November with 10 points in 14 games, and saw increased ice-time from there (under 15/game in Oct-Nov, over 17/game after that).

I guess I see it from both sides- White did seem to have an easier time getting a spot out of camp than Brown despite not having a ton of AHL success or a great preseason, but after getting the chance, he did earn his minutes with his play. Sure, playing with Stone helped, but he was playing a smart, hard-working game in his own right. I do think he lacks creativity and he still needs to get stronger. I remember him being such a pain in front of the net and in the dirty areas at the World Junior's. Now, he's too easy to handle in those situations. It should be noted, he did see less ice-time during his struggles this year. In October he played 17+ per game, then down to 15 or so for the next few months, and then under 14 in February. He finished with a strong March and saw more minutes then.

Now, if Brown doesn't get a fair shot at NHL ice-time this year, I'll be upset. It's time.

 

[Cosmix]

I never realized I claimed they did ? I think there is room to acknowledge that White has had his pathway “snowplowed” while Brown etc have been held much more accountable to a higher standard.

White wasn’t even good at the 2018 training camp.

I don’t really buy the “weak team excuse”. If Brown is the 1C in Belleville this year I bet he puts up 1.0PPG plus without Norris/Bath.

Im curious if the decisions to rush prospects like Lajoie and White was a Boucher thing trying to compete/failure to recognize or a PD thing.

I think the “rush” occurred due to lack of better options.

 

[Micklebot]

There were plenty of people who didn't think White earned his spot after his preseason that year. Chlapik was just as good at the AHL level the year before and many thought he was better in the preseason, but White got the spot. It reminded me this year of Batherson getting a spot out of camp this year despite a less than stellar preseason. In Batherson's case, he didn't do much with his opportunity to start the year (only got 2 games). White, though, scored 2 points in the 1st game of the year, had 6 points in the first 9 games, then had a really nice month of November with 10 points in 14 games, and saw increased ice-time from there (under 15/game in Oct-Nov, over 17/game after that).

I guess I see it from both sides- White did seem to have an easier time getting a spot out of camp than Brown despite not having a ton of AHL success or a great preseason, but after getting the chance, he did earn his minutes with his play. Sure, playing with Stone helped, but he was playing a smart, hard-working game in his own right. I do think he lacks creativity and he still needs to get stronger. I remember him being such a pain in front of the net and in the dirty areas at the World Junior's. Now, he's too easy to handle in those situations. It should be noted, he did see less ice-time during his struggles this year. In October he played 17+ per game, then down to 15 or so for the next few months, and then under 14 in February. He finished with a strong March and saw more minutes then.

Now, if Brown doesn't get a fair shot at NHL ice-time this year, I'll be upset. It's time.

I think part of it is carrying over last years evaluation, they may have preferred White the year prior and that was enough to give him the first shot, which he took advantage of earned a spot. Same goes with Batherson, his play at the NHL level last year earned him some rope this year, but in his case he wasn't able to stick.

There's also factors like role, Brown doesn't really suit a bottom 6 roles, while White stylistically can, plus he is able to shift to wing, while Brown is seen as more of a pure center. As such, if the top 6 C roles are filled, Brown is at a disadvantage.

 

[operasen]

Stay the course, have him up in the NHL for reasonably long stints and if he shines, he stays.

I agree. Stay the course with him.
Think Zibanejad - Sens gave up too early on him. Would they like to have him now? Absolutely