Silver Seven What Do You Do With Logan Brown?

[danielpalfredsson]

I think they traded Zibanejad because they did not want to spend another 15M over three years waiting for him to reach that level. If they saw more in him, as far as consistency, and maturity, chances are they do not trade him. Good for Zibby, but let's see him do it again before we talk of the home run that everyone thinks he is right now. I hope he does continue.

Logan Brown is developing just fine, and next year will be a big step for him to take. I'm still a believer

The short of it, is that I think the 2019 rebuild was planned from when Dorion took over. They didn't have the cash to give everybody extensions under the budget. So they knew Zibanejad would become a UFA at the same time as Brassard, and they thought Brassard was the better player who with his "big game Brass" reputation was a better fit for a team that was in 'win now' mode.

Sens weren't in 'win now' mode because they were a contender. They were in 'win now' mode because they only had a few years left before Karlsson, Stone, Hoffman, Turris, etc would need raises or walk as UFAs.

 

[Peptic Balcers]

I agree. Stay the course with him.
Think Zibanejad - Sens gave up too early on him. Would they like to have him now? Absolutely

Although I agree with this sentiment in general, Zibanejad had 151 points in 281 games (5 years post draft) when he was traded and Brown currently has 9 points in 23 career games (4 years post draft).

Zibby was an established NHL player, and a budding star while improving every year. Brown has shown some nice flashes in the NHL and has produced very well in the minors, but he has some injury concerns isn't nearly as much of a sure thing as Zibby was.

 

[danielpalfredsson]

Zibanejad probably doesn't get in the NHL as early if he is drafted when Brown was.

The Senators clearly are in a different place right now with this rebuild, and have a very different philosophy about keeping younger guys in the AHL. Look at what it took for Norris to get a look up here, and look at how long Batherson has been marinating in the AHL.

Zibanejad was a better prospect than Brown, I'm not arguing against that. But it is all relative. There is clearly a mandate not to rush guys along.

 

[Peptic Balcers]

Zibanejad probably doesn't get in the NHL as early if he is drafted when Brown was.

The Senators clearly are in a different place right now with this rebuild, and have a very different philosophy about keeping younger guys in the AHL. Look at what it took for Norris to get a look up here, and look at how long Batherson has been marinating in the AHL.

Zibanejad was a better prospect than Brown, I'm not arguing against that. But it is all relative. There is clearly a mandate not to rush guys along.

I think we're on the same page here. I'm more saying this isn't the same as "giving up" on zibanejad, because that was a strategic "win now" move (debatable) . Trading Brown now would be a knee jerk reaction to a perceived surplus of centers which wouldn't make any sense. I liked what he can do in Belleville this year, really hope he gets a shot with the big club next year

 

[KnuckChuckinTkachuk]

Zibanejad probably doesn't get in the NHL as early if he is drafted when Brown was.

The Senators clearly are in a different place right now with this rebuild, and have a very different philosophy about keeping younger guys in the AHL. Look at what it took for Norris to get a look up here, and look at how long Batherson has been marinating in the AHL.

Zibanejad was a better prospect than Brown, I'm not arguing against that. But it is all relative. There is clearly a mandate not to rush guys along.

Zibby had the luxury of coming onto an older more mature team and could ease his transition on the 3rd line behind Spezza and Turris. Way different circumstances.

 

[JungleBeat]

Zibby had the luxury of coming onto an older more mature team and could ease his transition on the 3rd line behind Spezza and Turris. Way different circumstances.

Zibanejad was a second line centre as a rookie on a team that made the playoffs.

 

[danielpalfredsson]

Zibanejad was a second line centre as a rookie on a team that made the playoffs.

He was a heavily sheltered bottom 6 C that year.

 

[JungleBeat]

He was a heavily sheltered bottom 6 C that year.

Zibanejad was the de facto second line centre after getting called up but initially having limited time. Smith would just go out to grind.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

And since we're six pages in and no one has connected the thread title to this, I guess I ought to....

 

[Mark Stones Spleen]

IIRC, Brown had worked out a ton last year and was in great shape. I think he needed some time to learn how to use his size. Hopefully with the crew of friends (Tkachuk, Norris, White) all in the NHL, Brown will do what it takes to get there with the rest of them.

 

[Sweatred]

IIRC, Brown had worked out a ton last year and was in great shape. I think he needed some time to learn how to use his size. Hopefully with the crew of friends (Tkachuk, Norris, White) all in the NHL, Brown will do what it takes to get there with the rest of them.

It felt like last year he did a lot of work on gaining bulk and pure strength. I’m hoping he blends that with some plyo/speed-agility work this off season. He will never be quick but a little boost in quickness would benefit him.

Anyone know if Brown is/was scheduled to attend rookie camp?

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

And since we're six pages in and no one has connected the thread title to this, I guess I ought to....

Ah yes... Eating TV dinners on TV tables while watching The Irish Rovers followed by the Beachcombers on CBC.

 

[KnuckChuckinTkachuk]

Zibanejad was a second line centre as a rookie on a team that made the playoffs.

So what you're saying is Zibby (33 points) played either in front of Spezza (66 points) or Turris (58 points) that year?

Maybe for a stretch but not the entire year no. I remember him floating between 2nd-3rd line duties with some PP time mixed in.

 

[Micklebot]

So what you're saying is Zibby (33 points) played either in front of Spezza (66 points) or Turris (58 points) that year?

Maybe for a stretch but not the entire year no. I remember him floating between 2nd-3rd line duties with some PP time mixed in.

Pretty sure he was talking about the lock out shortened season when Spezza was injured for all but 5 games and zibanejad played 42 games and got 20 pts, we made thec big show and beat up on the habs before the pens knocked us out

 

[KnuckChuckinTkachuk]

Pretty sure he was talking about the lock out shortened season when Spezza was injured for all but 5 games and zibanejad played 42 games and got 20 pts, we made thec big show and beat up on the habs before the pens knocked us out

Ahh that would make more sense.

So his opportunity in the top 6 had everything to do with Spezza's injury instead of his play and he was properly pushed down to the 3rd line the next year.

It's not like he came knocking down doors at training camp and forced the Sens staff to put him in the top 6. Either way he got that short term experience as a rookie but was sheltered afterwards to refine his game (which may or may not have been the best approach - I still think Murray had it right in predicting Zibby as our #1 and Turris as our #2).

 

[operasen]

Zibanejad was the de facto second line centre after getting called up but initially having limited time. Smith would just go out to grind.

Isn't that the expectation set for Brown - 1st or 2nd line Centre. He needs to be protected until he can not be denied. Spezza was and that worked out, even when he was blocked when many wanted to see him up.

I think Brown has a place here. He has good friends on the team as well. But he has to earn his spot. Brady did, Norris is. White needs to reset. Brown must as well and when he steps back on the ice, just dominate.

Issue will be if we Draft a centre with one of our top choices. Is there enough place down the middle for all of Norris, Brown and Byfield (by example) in the top 9 as centres in two years, not counting Tierney, Anisimov, Chlapik, etc. Fascinating choices. And encouraging depth.

 

[Sweatred]

Isn't that the expectation set for Brown - 1st or 2nd line Centre. He needs to be protected until he can not be denied. Spezza was and that worked out, even when he was blocked when many wanted to see him up.

I think Brown has a place here. He has good friends on the team as well. But he has to earn his spot. Brady did, Norris is. White needs to reset. Brown must as well and when he steps back on the ice, just dominate.

Issue will be if we Draft a centre with one of our top choices. Is there enough place down the middle for all of Norris, Brown and Byfield (by example) in the top 9 as centres in two years, not counting Tierney, Anisimov, Chlapik, etc. Fascinating choices. And encouraging depth.

Drafting Byfield would let him return to junior and start to break in during the 21-22 season with no pressure. He probably starts to play like a 2C during the 22-23 season and having 3 great young centers would give us a lot of trade flexibility. Norris can also play wing but I like the idea of recycling a 2C Brown (or whoever in 22-24) for a boat load of futures high end assets.

 

[IlTerrifico]

If we are truly trying to build a roster reflective of the Blues/Bruins philosophy, even if Brown doesn't pan out as a top line C, there still is the option to make him a 3rd line winger, pay him the reflective of this, and shape the roster to be big with scoring throughout, and he could be a bonus power play specialist.

Tkachuk, Byfield, Paul and Brown represent the kind of size that gives you access to all kinds of slot ownership garbage goals that wins playoff games, with plenty of skill to boot.

 

[danielpalfredsson]

So what you're saying is Zibby (33 points) played either in front of Spezza (66 points) or Turris (58 points) that year?

Maybe for a stretch but not the entire year no. I remember him floating between 2nd-3rd line duties with some PP time mixed in.

Spezza was hurt for most of that year (12-13). Zibanejad played sheltered 3rd line minutes. Turris was leaned on heavily to step up with Spezza hurt. Smith took up a bigger role than Zibanejad. Whether people want to argue that Smith deserved that role over Zibanejad would be something entirely different, but Zib was absolutely not the 2C.

Saying 2C/3C, etc doesn't really properly describe their usage. There was a lot of spreading minutes around because of injuries and having a young team up front. But Zibanejad absolutely was not the 2C that year.

Zibanejad was a bottom 6 C for Ottawa until Spezza was traded. He was used in a more offensively role, but it isn't like he was leaned on with big assignments or big minutes. Again, if people want to argue that he was being held back and he could have been a top 6 C before he was used as one, fine. But it just isn't factual to say he was the 2C all the way back in 12-13. This is the same guy that started (controversially) 13-14 in the AHL.

 

[TheNewEra]

The short of it, is that I think the 2019 rebuild was planned from when Dorion took over. They didn't have the cash to give everybody extensions under the budget. So they knew Zibanejad would become a UFA at the same time as Brassard, and they thought Brassard was the better player who with his "big game Brass" reputation was a better fit for a team that was in 'win now' mode.

Sens weren't in 'win now' mode because they were a contender. They were in 'win now' mode because they only had a few years left before Karlsson, Stone, Hoffman, Turris, etc would need raises or walk as UFAs.

my only issue with this is if we knew the writing was on the wall we should have traded them well in advance. Stone should have been traded pre-arb and in all honesty probably at the previous season deadline. Hoffman should have been sold off even before the karlsson drama happened. Turris I would give a slight pass to since he was flipped for duchene but duchene should have been sold off. In practice karlsson should have been traded earlier too we just got lucky with the higher than expected pick.

Even if you take the karlsson deal out of the equation. There are at least 3 trades that we probably could have gotten more in return for had we not done it with our backs against the wall

 

[SensontheRush]

Ahh that would make more sense.

So his opportunity in the top 6 had everything to do with Spezza's injury instead of his play and he was properly pushed down to the 3rd line the next year.

It's not like he came knocking down doors at training camp and forced the Sens staff to put him in the top 6. Either way he got that short term experience as a rookie but was sheltered afterwards to refine his game (which may or may not have been the best approach - I still think Murray had it right in predicting Zibby as our #1 and Turris as our #2).

What dont you get? He literally played 2nd line centre on a playoff team. If his play wasn't satisfactory at the time, of course he would have been pushed down the lineup. But he wasnt. He jumped in, and put up a .5ppg pace. His play dictated that he warranted that top six position. His play dictated that he was better than the AHL.

I just don't think anyone realized at the time how great of a prospect he was.

Edit: Not only that, but he was the 2nd line centre when we beat the Canadiens in the playoffs 4-1.

 

[Micklebot]

What dont you get? He literally played 2nd line centre on a playoff team. If his play wasn't satisfactory at the time, of course he would have been pushed down the lineup. But he wasnt. He jumped in, and put up a .5ppg pace. His play dictated that he warranted that top six position. His play dictated that he was better than the AHL.

I just don't think anyone realized at the time how great of a prospect he was.

Edit: Not only that, but he was the 2nd line centre when we beat the Canadiens in the playoffs 4-1.

Except Zack Smith was averaging 2 and a half more mins a game at 5v5, and playing the tougher assignments. That carried on in the playoffs too. Zibanejad wasn't being used as the 2C, he was being used as an 3C on an offensive line.

People might not have liked it, but our second line that year was the frigging Greening Smith Neil line...

 

[danielpalfredsson]

my only issue with this is if we knew the writing was on the wall we should have traded them well in advance. Stone should have been traded pre-arb and in all honesty probably at the previous season deadline. Hoffman should have been sold off even before the karlsson drama happened. Turris I would give a slight pass to since he was flipped for duchene but duchene should have been sold off. In practice karlsson should have been traded earlier too we just got lucky with the higher than expected pick.

Even if you take the karlsson deal out of the equation. There are at least 3 trades that we probably could have gotten more in return for had we not done it with our backs against the wall

If they trade them well in advance, they don't get to push for a Stanley Cup.

If you really want to go with the benefit of hindsight, the best move would have been a complete Cleveland Browns style rebuild right when Dorion took over.

Sports teams almost never do that, because if they make that kind of move, they can kiss their fans goodbye. At the time, while attendance wasn't amazing by any means, we weren't in the rut attendance wise that was created with the handling of the 2017 rebuild.

It's easy to say when the best move would be on paper, but I think there is a lot of political and marketing stuff behind the scenes. We absolutely should have traded Stone and Duchene either at the 2018 deadline or the 2018 off season. We would have gotten a lot more for both. I don't for a second believe this team thought they were going to be able to extend Stone. They had 2 years to sign Stone to a long term extension since they were able to sign an extension all the way back in July 2017.

I think they wanted to hang on to Stone and Duchene until the deadline to try and market the rebuild to fans. As in, convince them they'll keep good star players, it isn't a sell off, but a proper rebuild. I also think they needed to try and show people like Tkachuk and Chabot that they were operating in good faith. Would Keith Tkachuk have advised his son to leave College if Dorion told him that Stone and Duchene would be gone before his son's first season, and his son would be thrown to the wolves in the NHL?

 

[danielpalfredsson]

What dont you get? He literally played 2nd line centre on a playoff team. If his play wasn't satisfactory at the time, of course he would have been pushed down the lineup. But he wasnt. He jumped in, and put up a .5ppg pace. His play dictated that he warranted that top six position. His play dictated that he was better than the AHL.

I just don't think anyone realized at the time how great of a prospect he was.

Edit: Not only that, but he was the 2nd line centre when we beat the Canadiens in the playoffs 4-1.

He was not second line center until Spezza was traded.

This is strange revisionist history. All the game logs and stats are available. He was not played as a 2C until Spezza left. He was our 2C in the 15-16 series against the Canadiens.

Whether people want to argue that he was skilled or polished enough as a player and should have been entitled to 2C minutes based on their assessment of him, that's fine. But this stems from someone saying he was used as a 2C all the way back in 12-13, which is not factual.

 

[Agent Zub]

I think it was more a case of a 1st line and then having a 2b 2c situation.