Silver Seven What Do You Do With Logan Brown?

[lancepitlick]

I don't see much point in trading him unless it is a trade revolving around other young players. For example, trading Brown for a later first in this years draft or another higher end prospect.

You need to find out what you have and until the player has gotten 100-200 games in the NHL while mostly physically developed, it often isn't possible. Unless they stink out the joint in the AHL or seriously regress you have to let them play. There will be bumps in the road, but evaluate the overall trend.

 

[Bileur]

None of the above, stay the course. They knew it was a long term development curve ever since they drafted him. Why they would change their minds now makes no sense. The sens have absolutely no reason to trade him. They have holes everywhere in the lineup and he has progressed every season. You'd think after watching Zibanejad break out since the team gave up on him sens fans would take the patient approach.

I dont know why our expectations would change either this is more or less how i expected it to go.

Nailed it.

Logan Brown was always seen as a project, and as expected from the start, the team is taking a slow and steady development approach with him. He still has lots of work to do, injuries have even further delayed the plan, but he is nevertheless progressing nicely. Why would the sens stop now when they are getting close to harvesting the fruit of their labour?

Besides, the return they would get on Brown in a trade would be negligible compared to the impact he could have if he reaches his potential. Its not time to cash in this chip now after all the work that has gone into him. Even if they pick Byfield and Stutzle (and choose to keep both at center) I doubt both will be ready for the NHL this year. Let Brown sink or swim in the NHL next season and they could potentially have a far more valuable trade piece in the summer, while having little to lose if he flops.

Stay the course.

It would be great if we could all agree just to watch this play out and not fall into the whole whipping boy garbage that seems to always happen in Ottawa.

 

[DaveMatthew]

I have a bias against against Brown. I don't like players who play the way he does. Playing with pace is something that's about effort and will, and he just doesn't do it. And let's please no compare him to Spezza, who was significantly more talented than Brown.

Comparing Brown to Spezza is like comparing Tyson Barrie to Erik Karlsson. Sure, they were both offensive defenseman. But one guy was significantly better.

I understand that Brown was a project to begin with, but at the start of next camp, he'll be 23. Time to put up or shut up.

He's already been passed on the depth chart by Josh Norris, and whether it's Stuetzle or Byfield, there's a good chance we have another top C prospect in June.

We're already calling prospects on other teams who were drafted the same year as Brown, like Puljujarvi, Juolevi, A.Nylander and McLeod busts, or near busts. You have to look at Brown the same way.

 

[danielpalfredsson]

The Senators selected Brown knowing that he was a high risk project with a high ceiling.

It doesn't make much sense to take a 180 this early on his development.

I'm also skeptical that his trade value would be all that high. It would depend on which team we are dealing with.

I'm not fine with a cutting bait type trade where we deal him for a 2nd round pick.

I'd be fine with a trade in a context like, we are adding a big piece, and the team we are dealing with wants Brown, and values him enough for it to make sense that we include him.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Keep him. Give him this year. See how he does . Revisit.

 

[Stylizer1]

Da Costa sucks.

 

[bert]

I have a bias against against Brown. I don't like players who play the way he does. Playing with pace is something that's about effort and will, and he just doesn't do it. And let's please no compare him to Spezza, who was significantly more talented than Brown.

Comparing Brown to Spezza is like comparing Tyson Barrie to Erik Karlsson. Sure, they were both offensive defenseman. But one guy was significantly better.

I understand that Brown was a project to begin with, but at the start of next camp, he'll be 23. Time to put up or shut up.

He's already been passed on the depth chart by Josh Norris, and whether it's Stuetzle or Byfield, there's a good chance we have another top C prospect in June.

We're already calling prospects on other teams who were drafted the same year as Brown, like Puljujarvi, Juolevi, A.Nylander and McLeod busts, or near busts. You have to look at Brown the same way.

Why do you have to look at him the same way? Each prospect is in a different situation, different development path, different skill set. I just dont think thay make sense at all.

 

[Micklebot]

We're already calling prospects on other teams who were drafted the same year as Brown, like Puljujarvi, Juolevi, A.Nylander and McLeod busts, or near busts. You have to look at Brown the same way.

AHL production
McLeod: 23 pts in 47 games this year
Nylander (who I don't think is a bust, but whatever): 31 pts in 49 games (2019), played in the NHL this year on a bad CHI team
Puljujarvi : double hip surgery and buggered off to SM-liiga rather than play in NA
Juolevi: A mess defensively and not producing enough offence to make up for it.

Brown: 28 pts in 25 games this year, 42 in 56 the year prior. Plays both ends of the ice but needs to pick up his pace on a more consistent basis

Brown is clearly ahead of the guys you pointed to, he's more than doubling McLeod's production, and close to doubled Nylander's last AHL year production.

If you look at him the same way as them, idk what to tell you. Brown is showing year to year progression and has the tools to be a great NHL player. When he stops progressing, then you start to worry.

 

[Sweatred]

AHL production
McLeod: 23 pts in 47 games this year
Nylander (who I don't think is a bust, but whatever): 31 pts in 49 games (2019), played in the NHL this year on a bad CHI team
Puljujarvi : double hip surgery and buggered off to SM-liiga rather than play in NA
Juolevi: A mess defensively and not producing enough offence to make up for it.

Brown: 28 pts in 25 games this year, 42 in 56 the year prior. Plays both ends of the ice but needs to pick up his pace on a more consistent basis

Brown is clearly ahead of the guys you pointed to, he's more than doubling McLeod's production, and close to doubled Nylander's last AHL year production.

If you look at him the same way as them, idk what to tell you. Brown is showing year to year progression and has the tools to be a great NHL player. When he stops progressing, then you start to worry.

It’s time for Brown to be allowed to compete against White for playing time (1-2C). The loser can go to Belleville or 4th line.

DJ has created an environment where players (other than White) have to compete at a level to play but he hasn’t opened the door to internal completion yet.

He basically placed Ennis and C.Brown types on the ice and used them as completion exemplars. I’d like to see our prospects start battling for ice amongst themselves, at least the 20+ year olds.

 

[TeamRenzo]

I don’t see him panning out as a first line center so I would trade him if they can get a good return.

What are you basing your opinion on?

 

[DaveMatthew]

AHL production
McLeod: 23 pts in 47 games this year
Nylander (who I don't think is a bust, but whatever): 31 pts in 49 games (2019), played in the NHL this year on a bad CHI team
Puljujarvi : double hip surgery and buggered off to SM-liiga rather than play in NA
Juolevi: A mess defensively and not producing enough offence to make up for it.

Brown: 28 pts in 25 games this year, 42 in 56 the year prior. Plays both ends of the ice but needs to pick up his pace on a more consistent basis

Brown is clearly ahead of the guys you pointed to, he's more than doubling McLeod's production, and close to doubled Nylander's last AHL year production.

If you look at him the same way as them, idk what to tell you. Brown is showing year to year progression and has the tools to be a great NHL player. When he stops progressing, then you start to worry.

If the argument is that there are players from the 2016 draft who are even further behind expectations than Logan Brown... then sure.

But if you were to put the top 15 picks from that year into two groups - successes and disappointments - which group would Brown be in? The one with Matthews, Laine, Dubois, Keller, Sergachev, Tkachuk and McAvoy? Or the one with Juolevi, Puljujarvi, Nylander, Jost, McLeod and Bean?

I'm not saying that Brown cannot still develop and become a contributing NHLer. It's certainly possible (just like it is with Puljujarvi, Bean, etc). But based on what I've seen, I'd be surprised.

My biggest issue with Brown is that the problems and red flags he had going into his draft year are still the same problems and red flags he has today. He has great vision and hands, yes. But he still lacks pace, he still floats too often, he still loses puck battles too often. The frustrating thing is that those weaknesses are all a function of effort, and after 4 NHL camps, he still hasn't addressed it.

 

[Cosmix]

One of Brown/White/Chalpik will be on their way out either this coming season or the next. My money is on Brown. There's too many Cs coming up (Pinto, Norris, 2/3rd overall pick). No point in keeping him. I'd give him one more season but after that it's time to pull the plug. Maybe he flourishes with another team a la Zibanejad, but sometimes that's what it takes.

I think Chaplik and White go before Brown.

 

[Micklebot]

If the argument is that there are players from the 2016 draft who are even further behind expectations than Logan Brown... then sure.

But if you were two put the top 15 picks from that year into two groups - successes and disappointments - which group would Brown be in? The one with Matthews, Laine, Dubois, Keller, Sergachev, Tkachuk and McAvoy? Or the one with Juolevi, Puljujarvi, Nylander, Jost, McLeod and Bean?

I'm not saying that Brown cannot still develop and become a contributing NHLer. It's certainly possible (just like it is with Puljujarvi, Bean, etc). But based on what I've seen, I'd be surprised.

My biggest issue with Brown is that the problems and red flags he had going into his draft year are still the same problems and red flags he has today. He has great vision and hands, yes. But he still lacks pace, he still floats too often, he still loses puck battles too often. The frustrating thing is that those weaknesses are all a function of effort, and after 4 NHL camps, he still hasn't addressed it.

If you're trying to categorize 22 yr old prospects into a binary set of success and disappointments based on whether or not they've broken into the NHL yet, then you're already going down the wrong path.

Like I said, Brown is showing progression year to year, so why would anyone categorize him as a disappointment? When he stops progressing, then you worry. Until then, he's one of the best forwards in the AHL, he's shown flashes at the NHL level that his offence will translate and he is only getting better. That seems positive to me.

 

[DaveMatthew]

If you're trying to categorize 22 yr old prospects into a binary set of success and disappointments based on whether or not they've broken into the NHL yet, then you're already going down the wrong path.

Like I said, Brown is showing progression year to year, so why would anyone categorize him as a disappointment? When he stops progressing, then you worry. Until then, he's one of the best forwards in the AHL, he's shown flashes at the NHL level that his offence will translate and he is only getting better. That seems positive to me.

The expectation for 22 year old former #11 picks is higher than "shown flashes" 4 years after their draft. I don't think it's unfair to compare him against his peers in the same draft class - many of whom have already established themselves as top-end NHL players. If we can't compare him to them, what can we do?

I'm not saying it's impossible for Brown to become an NHLer. He might make the jump, he might not. Neither of us know for sure what's going to happen. You think he'll put it together because of his talent, while I don't think he has the effort and pace to play a top 6 role in the NHL. We'll see who's right.

I bet if you asked Dorion thought what he envisioned Brown being 4 years after his draft, though - while he wouldn't call him a bust, I think he'd acknowledge that he hoped he wouldn't still be such a big question mark.

 

[HSF]

keep him for sure

If he pans out we can move guys to the wing

 

[Micklebot]

The expectation for 22 year old former #11 picks is higher than "shown flashes" 4 years after their draft. I don't think it's unfair to compare him against his peers in the same draft class - many of whom have already established themselves as top-end NHL players. If we can't compare him to them, what can we do?

I'm not saying it's impossible for Brown to become an NHLer. He might make the jump, he might not. Neither of us know for sure what's going to happen. You think he'll put it together because of his talent, while I don't think he has the effort and pace to play a top 6 role in the NHL. We'll see who's right.

I bet if you asked Dorion thought what he envisioned Brown being 4 years after his draft, though - while he wouldn't call him a bust, I think he'd acknowledge that he hoped he still wouldn't be such a big question mark.

The nature of the draft is that the top end of the draft typically is further along, so I think it's completely unfair to judge 11th OA against 1 OA, 2nd OA 3rd OA, 6th OA, or 7th OA as you did. I also think it's unfair to expect everyone to follow the same development curve, so calling a player a disappointment because 9th OA and 14th OA made an impact quicker (and for that matter, a bigger impact than you should expect based on their draft position) is also unfair.

I think you should judge a player base on their progression on the development path unfortunately some injuries have played into things. that was expected of them when they were drafted; Logan Brown was seen as a longer term project, as most big men are. He's been following that curve and is progressing, so to me, that's positive. There are still areas to improve for sure, and there have been some injuries along the way slowing things up a bit, but he's going according to plan, or close to it.

 

[Samboni]

What are you basing your opinion on?

Grit, heart, leadership. I’m not sure if he has what it takes to succeed to be a true #1 center. His injury history is concerning as well. Maybe I’m naive, but if has what it takes to be a number 1 centre, he should have made the team last year and wouldn’t have needed another year of seasoning in the AHL. I would love to be wrong and will gladly accept the “I told you so’s” if I am.

 

[HSF]

Grit, heart, leadership. I’m not sure if he has what it takes to succeed to be a true #1 center. His injury history is concerning as well. Maybe I’m naive, but if has what it takes to be a number 1 centre, he should have made the team last year and wouldn’t have needed another year of seasoning in the AHL. I would love to be wrong and will gladly accept the “I told you so’s” if I am.

meh same could be said about Batherson

Its not an easy jump to make and I think Ottawa is rightfully taking their time with their prospects.

If we somehow end up with

Byfield
Brown

Down the middle and Stuzle on the wing our team would be deadlyyyyy

 

[Micklebot]

Grit, heart, leadership. I’m not sure if he has what it takes to succeed to be a true #1 center. His injury history is concerning as well. Maybe I’m naive, but if has what it takes to be a number 1 centre, he should have made the team last year and wouldn’t have needed another year of seasoning in the AHL last year. I would love to be wrong and will gladly accept the “I told you so’s” if I am.

I've always seen him as a #2 center with a shot as a decent #1 center or at least can fill in as one when we have injuries. The likelihood of him becoming Getzlaf of Spezza was never really that high, but if he can be a 60-70 pts 2nd line center that is a force on the PP halfwall, that's a huge part of the puzzle.

 

[Samboni]

I've always seen him as a #2 center with a shot as a decent #1 center or at least can fill in as one when we have injuries. The likelihood of him becoming Getzlaf of Spezza was never really that high, but if he can be a 60-70 pts 2nd line center that is a force on the PP halfwall, that's a huge part of the puzzle.

I suppose I had higher expectations for Brown since they moved up to pick him. I hope he succeeds.

 

[Micklebot]

I suppose I had higher expectations for Brown since they moved up to pick him. I hope he succeeds.

They moved up 1 spot... I mean, clearly they liked him, but I think a good to great 2nd line center is a win at 11 OA and worth adding a 3rd to ensure you get him.

 

[Samboni]

They moved up 1 spot... I mean, clearly they liked him, but I think a good to great 2nd line center is a win at 11 OA and worth adding a 3rd to ensure you get him.

IMO, moving up one spot is bizarre unless you think the guy is sure-fire to be great. NJ must have been rolling on the floor after pulling that off!

 

[SAK11]

IMO, moving up one spot is bizarre unless you think the guy is sure-fire to be great. NJ must have been rolling on the floor after pulling that off!

New Jersey could've easily been in talks with a few teams about moving down. Ottawa risks not getting their guy if they stay put and another teams jumps ahead.

 

[bert]

My biggest issue with Brown is that the problems and red flags he had going into his draft year are still the same problems and red flags he has today. He has great vision and hands, yes. But he still lacks pace, he still floats too often, he still loses puck battles too often. The frustrating thing is that those weaknesses are all a function of effort, and after 4 NHL camps, he still hasn't addressed it.

He has visibly gotten better every season at all the issues you are pointing out. So I dont agree that it hasnt been addressed. His point production has gotten better, just about every part of his game has. Again to re iterate he was always a long term prospect that needed to fill out into his frame and get stronger and faster. Its literally happening.

Is he where I hoped he would be at this point? No but that doesnt mean he wont get there. I still havent got a logical explanation from anyone as to why they should possibly give up on the player and trade him for a far less valuable asset than they used to obtain him. Especially considering he plays the position that is the biggest need and the team is horrible. Oh yeah they already have 9 picks in the first three rounds and people want to trade him for more picks. The organization has invested alot into developing him for 4 years its not going to stop now no matter what the irrational argument someone has not to.

 

[armani]

You keep Logan Brown and demonstrate Nick Paul patience with him. He is likely the best playmaking centre in the organization and has legit size. He is not the type of player to rely on his size, but lets be patient and allow his skilled game to catch up to his size. Without further injuries please.