What are the looming issues for Dubas that you believe are key?

[Big Muddy]

Wasn't an option, really. Who exactly do you trade for top flight D - especially if you don't have Tavares?

Do you trade Matthews? Marner?

When you do a lineup without 2 of Tavares, Matthews, Marner, it suddenly looks like a 20th place team.

I'm surprised a little because we have no problem talking about trades all the time in here with the idea that they are possible. Not sure how its not possible or not an option now?

 

[Legion34]

Why do people think toronto will carry a 21-23 man roster?


They didn’t this year. They have tons of cheap depth and will sign More.......
They have clearly decided they can go with a min roster.

 

[kb]

I'm surprised a little because we have no problem talking about trades all the time in here with the idea that they are possible. Not sure how its not possible or not an option now?

I didn't mean to imply that it wasn't possible, or wasn't option. It most certainly is and was.

I was just asking who the Leafs trade away to fill that hole, and does it actually improve the team?

 

[ACC1224]

Lou vs Kyle continues through wonderful social media platforms like Twitter.

One of them is a Hall of famer, and the other one is still learning on the job at his first NHL position.

While quoting some random persons twitter thoughts seems rather idiotic, Lou Lams career to date is meaningless to Toronto fans and really has nothing to do with Dubas
The constant putting down one to prop up the other has always been one of the stupider tactics here. Dubas should be able to stand on his own and the NYI having cap troubles doesn’t somehow prove that the Leafs themselves don’t have cap issues.

 

[Mess]

Also giving Zaitsev and Matt Martin 7 and 4 years, respectively, is not fiscally responsible.

Looking at the cap situation the Isles are in now further seems to demonstrate, to me, that Lou would have not been much better with the cap. He may have saved a few million on the cap with the big 3's contracts, but it evident he would have signed bloated contracts on depth players which would negate the savings on the better players.

Lou Lam vs Dubas comparison

Nikita Zaitsev - Age 25 (rookie season) .. Leafs 82 games 4 goals 32 assists 36 points
Who was a @ X KHL 1st All-Star team, and lead KHL playoffs in Dman scoring and member of Team Russia internationally and signed for free as UFA.
= 7 years X $4.5 mil new contract as RHD running from ages 26-32.
or
Jake Muzzin - Age 31 .. Leafs stats 2018-19 - Toronto Maple Leafs NHL .. 30 games 5 goals 11 assists 16 points & 2019-20 - 53 games 6 goals 17 assists 23 points
Acquired for 1st round pick in 2019 and 2 X former 2nds (Grundstrom and Durzi).
= 4 years X $5.625 mil as LHD running from ages 32-35.

Dion Phaneuf traded to Ottawa
- With a salary cap hit of $7 million US for this season and the next 5 years, the 30-year-old Phaneuf was considered a hindrance to the Leafs' rebuilding efforts. Shedding the underperforming defenceman's entire salary and cap hit for a 2017 2nd round pick seems to be the main appeal of the trade for the Leafs Lou Lamoriello.
or
Kessel traded to Pittsburgh
- Dubas who agreed to pay $1.2 million X 6 years of Phil Kessel's salary annually through 2022 via salary retention when they unloaded the pricey forward $ 8 mil AAV to Pittsburgh last summer for Kapanen and 1st.

Marleau traded to Carolina
- Dubas for Salary cap reasons dealt Patrick Marleau for Carolina along with his 2020/2021 1st round pick for 1 year cap hit at $6.25 mil with actual salary of $3.5 mil.

If we all conceded Lou Lam could have saved a few million on the 3 Amigo's contracts and like gotten more term as well, then I'm not seeing our new GM really handling things that one can give him an edge for improving things in comparison here. IMHO

 

[Dekes For Days]

If we all conceded Lou Lam could have saved a few million on the 3 Amigo's contracts and like gotten more term as well

There is absolutely zero evidence that this would be the case. In fact, considering Lou's history and what we know about the negotiations, it is more likely that it would have been worse with Lou.

 

[kb]

Lou Lam vs Dubas comparison

Nikita Zaitsev - Age 25 (rookie season) .. Leafs 82 games 4 goals 32 assists 36 points
Who was a @ X KHL 1st All-Star team, and lead KHL playoffs in Dman scoring and member of Team Russia internationally and signed for free as UFA.
= 7 years X $4.5 mil new contract as RHD running from ages 26-32.
or
Jake Muzzin - Age 31 .. Leafs stats 2018-19 - Toronto Maple Leafs NHL .. 30 games 5 goals 11 assists 16 points & 2019-20 - 53 games 6 goals 17 assists 23 points
Acquired for 1st round pick in 2019 and 2 X former 2nds (Grundstrom and Durzi).
= 4 years X $5.625 mil as LHD running from ages 32-35.

Dion Phaneuf traded to Ottawa
- With a salary cap hit of $7 million US for this season and the next 5 years, the 30-year-old Phaneuf was considered a hindrance to the Leafs' rebuilding efforts. Shedding the underperforming defenceman's entire salary and cap hit for a 2017 2nd round pick seems to be the main appeal of the trade for the Leafs Lou Lamoriello.
or
Kessel traded to Pittsburgh
- Dubas who agreed to pay $1.2 million X 6 years of Phil Kessel's salary annually through 2022 via salary retention when they unloaded the pricey forward $ 8 mil AAV to Pittsburgh last summer for Kapanen and 1st.

Marleau traded to Carolina
- Dubas for Salary cap reasons dealt Patrick Marleau for Carolina along with his 2020/2021 1st round pick for 1 year cap hit at $6.25 mil with actual salary of $3.5 mil.

If we all conceded Lou Lam could have saved a few million on the 3 Amigo's contracts and like gotten more term as well, then I'm not seeing our new GM really handling things that one can give him an edge for improving things in comparison here. IMHO

Reality time, not fantasy. Can we all look at the Islanders and concede that the Leafs avoided an unmitigated disaster in contracts? Lou loves to overpay for what players have done in the past that they aren't remotely capable of anymore.

And I am not a Lou hater, for the record. He did some good things here. But the smartest move was letting Lou go to the Islanders to run that team into the ground.

 

[ACC1224]

Lou Lam vs Dubas comparison

Nikita Zaitsev - Age 25 (rookie season) .. Leafs 82 games 4 goals 32 assists 36 points
Who was a @ X KHL 1st All-Star team, and lead KHL playoffs in Dman scoring and member of Team Russia internationally and signed for free as UFA.
= 7 years X $4.5 mil new contract as RHD running from ages 26-32.
or
Jake Muzzin - Age 31 .. Leafs stats 2018-19 - Toronto Maple Leafs NHL .. 30 games 5 goals 11 assists 16 points & 2019-20 - 53 games 6 goals 17 assists 23 points
Acquired for 1st round pick in 2019 and 2 X former 2nds (Grundstrom and Durzi).
= 4 years X $5.625 mil as LHD running from ages 32-35.

Dion Phaneuf traded to Ottawa
- With a salary cap hit of $7 million US for this season and the next 5 years, the 30-year-old Phaneuf was considered a hindrance to the Leafs' rebuilding efforts. Shedding the underperforming defenceman's entire salary and cap hit for a 2017 2nd round pick seems to be the main appeal of the trade for the Leafs Lou Lamoriello.
or
Kessel traded to Pittsburgh
- Dubas who agreed to pay $1.2 million X 6 years of Phil Kessel's salary annually through 2022 via salary retention when they unloaded the pricey forward $ 8 mil AAV to Pittsburgh last summer for Kapanen and 1st.

Marleau traded to Carolina
- Dubas for Salary cap reasons dealt Patrick Marleau for Carolina along with his 2020/2021 1st round pick for 1 year cap hit at $6.25 mil with actual salary of $3.5 mil.

If we all conceded Lou Lam could have saved a few million on the 3 Amigo's contracts and like gotten more term as well, then I'm not seeing our new GM really handling things that one can give him an edge for improving things in comparison here. IMHO

You can assume he would have signed them for less. One thing for certain he wouldn’t have given them more and he definitely wouldn’t have caved on Nylander

 

[kb]

There is absolutely zero evidence that this would be the case. In fact, considering Lou's history and what we know about the negotiations, it is more likely that it would have been worse with Lou.

Where did his reputation as a good negotiator come from? I look at the contracts he has signed over the past few seasons and don't see one good one.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Where did his reputation as a good negotiator come from?

He's grumpy and strict in other aspects he has full control over, and some have somehow twisted that into "good negotiator", and in turn have disregarded all of the actual reasons behind the contentious negotiations and what these players were actually worth to arbitrarily suggest, with no evidence, that one of the worst negotiators in the modern era who was a partial cause of some of the contentious issues in the first place was somehow going to get a better deal.

 

[ACC1224]

Where did his reputation as a good negotiator come from? I look at the contracts her has signed over the past few seasons and don't see one good one.

He must have signed a few good ones.
Lou obsession is weird. Leaf fans probably discuss him more than Islander fans do.

 

[Stephen]

Over the course of his GM career, Lou has been a Hall of Fame level program builder. In his prime he built deep organizations that consistently developed great interchangeable parts revolving around a very small handful of loyal core players, thus developing a reputation for being able to take a hard line stance in negotiations and walk away when others would concede.

In terms of his weaknesses, he hasn't been that strong in the post cap world, consistently paying premium to attract veteran free agents to an unattractive program in New Jersey, and seems to hand out bloated contracts to guys lower on the depth chart at inefficient cap hits, death by a thousand cuts sort of thing.

Another glaring weakness is he doesn't have a fantastic track record being able to babysit star offensive talent over the course of his career. Elias is probably the exception, but guys like Gomez, Parise, Kovalchuk all seem to have abandoned the Lou program for one reason or another. He seemed to have had difficulty making things work with Arnott, Guerin, Sykora. He also seemed to have angered Mitch Marner on the ELC negotiations so badly here in Toronto, and seems nowhere close to getting Barzal locked up in New York.

 

[AreBe]

Reality time, not fantasy. Can we all look at the Islanders and concede that the Leafs avoided an unmitigated disaster in contracts? Lou loves to overpay for what players have done in the past that they aren't remotely capable of anymore.
.

One of the reasons we are now in the Golden Age of Leafs management is because Dubas is a stats geek.

Of critical importance is to pay players for what they will be tomorrow, and not what they were yesterday. And you do that through analytics and geeking out on stats.

Remember too: today's idiot deal that only a moron would do is a bargain two years from now (once explosive inflation in the salary cap starts again)

 

[The Iceman]

So babs was our coach when we got 105 points but hes also the reason why we regressed in points the following season??

It had nothing to do with dubas' trades and signings?

Lou + babs = 105 points
Dubas + babs = 100 points
Dubas + babs + keefe = pace of 95 points

There seems to be a common factor when it comes to our regression. Can you figure out which one it is?

One more comparison
Dubas + Keefe = pace of 103 points.

You have to give a GM time to establish a team or you end up being Buffalo. Lets see if Robertson is a player, if Mikheyev, Barbanov, Lehtonen, Sandin can make important contributions on minimal salary cap hits. Until you know you can not evaluate Dubas.

 

[4thline]

Another glaring weakness is he doesn't have a fantastic track record being able to babysit star offensive talent over the course of his career. Elias is probably the exception, but guys like Gomez, Parise, Kovalchuk all seem to have abandoned the Lou program for one reason or another. He seemed to have had difficulty making things work with Arnott, Guerin, Sykora. He also seemed to have angered Mitch Marner on the ELC negotiations so badly here in Toronto, and seems nowhere close to getting Barzal locked up in New York.

Going into the weeds on his handling of good young players in the cap age

Parise- sub Nylander young player (48 in scoring over 2 full elc seasons vs 128, worse draft pedigree)
Result- 4 year + 1 year contracts combining to current equivalent of 6x5, departs to UFA.
Contract not meaningfully better, player leaves as soon as possible

Gomez- Prime age 1C
Result- two 1 year bridges (current equivalent 4.6 and 9.25), departs to UFA
Squeezes over 2 seasons, second of which is still quite expensive ,player leaves as soon as possible

Zajac 1- young 2C coming off a breakout 60 point season
Result- 4 year bridge (5.5m eq.) that takes him right to UFA

Zajac 2- prime age 2C, coming off back to back seasons combining 26 points in 63 games
Result- big ole long term extension @ equivalent of 7.3
Player has not broken 50 points on the contract, 3 times under 30 points

There is absolutely no support for the assumption/concession that Lou would have got better deals out of the kids. What there is support for, is that he would have taken a principled stand over a few hundred k and drastically shortened their tenures here for little gain.


Then looking a little older at Elias
at 29 years old throws the equivalent of 11m. He does a decent job living up to it
then at 36 throws the equivalent of 7m at him. one decent year, then quickly downhill. Sound familiar?

 

[LeafsNation75]

mcdonagh cost a first, so that would of been no Sandin

That maybe true. However at the time when we all found out Tampa had got McDonagh and Toronto did not, did anyone think how the Leafs might have missed out on drafting Sandin?

 

[LeafsNation75]

Lou Lam vs Dubas comparison

Nikita Zaitsev - Age 25 (rookie season) .. Leafs 82 games 4 goals 32 assists 36 points
Who was a @ X KHL 1st All-Star team, and lead KHL playoffs in Dman scoring and member of Team Russia internationally and signed for free as UFA.
= 7 years X $4.5 mil new contract as RHD running from ages 26-32.
or
Jake Muzzin - Age 31 .. Leafs stats 2018-19 - Toronto Maple Leafs NHL .. 30 games 5 goals 11 assists 16 points & 2019-20 - 53 games 6 goals 17 assists 23 points
Acquired for 1st round pick in 2019 and 2 X former 2nds (Grundstrom and Durzi).
= 4 years X $5.625 mil as LHD running from ages 32-35.

Dion Phaneuf traded to Ottawa
- With a salary cap hit of $7 million US for this season and the next 5 years, the 30-year-old Phaneuf was considered a hindrance to the Leafs' rebuilding efforts. Shedding the underperforming defenceman's entire salary and cap hit for a 2017 2nd round pick seems to be the main appeal of the trade for the Leafs Lou Lamoriello.
or
Kessel traded to Pittsburgh
- Dubas who agreed to pay $1.2 million X 6 years of Phil Kessel's salary annually through 2022 via salary retention when they unloaded the pricey forward $ 8 mil AAV to Pittsburgh last summer for Kapanen and 1st.

Marleau traded to Carolina
- Dubas for Salary cap reasons dealt Patrick Marleau for Carolina along with his 2020/2021 1st round pick for 1 year cap hit at $6.25 mil with actual salary of $3.5 mil.

If we all conceded Lou Lam could have saved a few million on the 3 Amigo's contracts and like gotten more term as well, then I'm not seeing our new GM really handling things that one can give him an edge for improving things in comparison here. IMHO

Yes Lou did some good things like when he traded Phaneuf to Ottawa, however he also failed to sign Nylander to a contract extension since there was 1 year before he became an RFA.

Also when Kessel was traded to Pittsburgh, that is one trade where Brendan Shanahan was more involved and he wanted it t get done and didn't mind retaining $1.2 million of his contracy.

Finally if Lou never signs Marleau to start with or gives him at the most a 2 year contract, Dubas isn't forced to trade their 2020 1st round pick to get rid of his contract.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Another glaring weakness is he doesn't have a fantastic track record being able to babysit star offensive talent over the course of his career. Elias is probably the exception, but guys like Gomez, Parise, Kovalchuk all seem to have abandoned the Lou program for one reason or another. He seemed to have had difficulty making things work with Arnott, Guerin, Sykora. He also seemed to have angered Mitch Marner on the ELC negotiations so badly here in Toronto, and seems nowhere close to getting Barzal locked up in New York.

He also failed at trying to sign elite talent like Steven Stamkos when he meet with Lou and Leafs management in June 2016.

Plus how can we not forget him failing to re-sign John Tavares with the Islanders, since he was the main reason why they hired him to start with.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Trade for a RD?

That's what Dubas did on July 1, 2019 when he traded Nazem Kadri for Tyson Barrie.

Doughty never hit the open market. He re-signed with his team.

It's amazing how many people don't realize that fact.

 

[4thline]

Lou obsession is weird.

You can assume he would have signed them for less. One thing for certain he wouldn’t have given them more and he definitely wouldn’t have caved on Nylander

What is weirder / more obsessed? Holding him up on a pedestal and blindly imagining great results that there is no track record to back or actually comparing his decisions past and present vs. that of his successor?

 

[ACC1224]

What is weirder / more obsessed? Holding him up on a pedestal and blindly imagining great results that there is no track record to back or actually comparing his decisions past and present vs. that of his successor?

Both

 

[flying v 604]

The only thing matters is the salary cap.

The pie will be shrinking.

This Leafs team is no more.

Yesterday's NHL is over.

I was looking at the salary cap and it was around 76 million not including resigning Dermott and other RFAs. If they resign him for 3 mill it leaves basically nothing left. A team that is trying to win a cup surely can't ice a D group with 2 rookies who looked overwhelmed this season. I could be missing something but how are they going to shed cap without losing a key young kid and icing a D that doesn't have 2 rookies and Dermott and Holl in the top 4?

 

[kb]

I was looking at the salary cap and it was around 76 million not including resigning Dermott and other RFAs. If they resign him for 3 mill it leaves basically nothing left. A team that is trying to win a cup surely can't ice a D group with 2 rookies who looked overwhelmed this season. I could be missing something but how are they going to shed cap without losing a key young kid and icing a D that doesn't have 2 rookies and Dermott and Holl in the top 4?

Nothing wrong with Holl in the top 4. Him and Muzzin make an excellent shutdown pair against very tough competition.

And Dermott took several steps up when he was forced by necessity to become the defacto #1 when Muzzin and Rielly were out. It's the bottom pair that will require vet support.

Move one third line forward, and they are good to go.

 

[kb]

Over the course of his GM career, Lou has been a Hall of Fame level program builder. In his prime he built deep organizations that consistently developed great interchangeable parts revolving around a very small handful of loyal core players, thus developing a reputation for being able to take a hard line stance in negotiations and walk away when others would concede.

In terms of his weaknesses, he hasn't been that strong in the post cap world, consistently paying premium to attract veteran free agents to an unattractive program in New Jersey, and seems to hand out bloated contracts to guys lower on the depth chart at inefficient cap hits, death by a thousand cuts sort of thing.

Another glaring weakness is he doesn't have a fantastic track record being able to babysit star offensive talent over the course of his career. Elias is probably the exception, but guys like Gomez, Parise, Kovalchuk all seem to have abandoned the Lou program for one reason or another. He seemed to have had difficulty making things work with Arnott, Guerin, Sykora. He also seemed to have angered Mitch Marner on the ELC negotiations so badly here in Toronto, and seems nowhere close to getting Barzal locked up in New York.

Well said. And accurate.

 

[Menzinger]

I like having two productive players than a risky one that's prone to breaking down.

How many games did JT play vs. those two? Did he outscore those two

You do realize Eberle has missed considerably more games the past two seasons than Tavares, right?

Claiming that Tavares is injury prone with the Leafs is nonsensical. The guy had broken finger and missed a few games. Thats something that could have happened to any player