Weaponized cap space?

Should cap space be weaponized, if yes, how much?


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Number1RedWingsFan52

Registered User
Mar 17, 2013
40,243
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Winter Haven Florida
Wonder if St. Louis would want to unload Jake Allen so they can resign Pieterangelo (butchered that spelling). Maybe we can wiggle out a 22 first, or Kyrou/Kostin and a 3rd
St Louis will need to move out all 3 of Alex Steen, Tyler Bozak and Jake Allen to to be able to resign both Vince Dunn and Alex Pietrangelo. And that will be a tall order without giving up good picks and prospects to move those players.
 

Henkka

Registered User
Jan 31, 2004
31,213
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Tampere, Finland
St Louis will need to move out all 3 of Alex Steen, Tyler Bozak and Jake Allen to to be able to resign both Vince Dunn and Alex Pietrangelo. And that will be a tall order without giving up good picks and prospects to move those players.

They can trade Allen and Bozak easily. Then sign Dunn only for 1-year, those short-term caphits for young D were very low already at last summer.

Then they can handle Pietrangelo with long-term extension and just keep unmovable Steen on the team. His contract will end year after, and then their options will open more.
 

avssuc

Hockey is for everyone!
May 1, 2016
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Sergachev entering prime will fit to our core better than any defenceman from 2021 draft.

***

Latest signings have proven that defencemen are possible to sign cheap if a short-term deal.

Tampa also has Hedman and McDonagh signed for +5 years and they log the left side major minutes.

It's very interesting situation, they have better chances to keep Sergachev, but Cirelli is maybe more important, and becomes more overpaid too soon.

I get it, the whole bird in the hand thing.

But why not take Drysdale at 4, and save the cap space for other futures? That 6+ million left available might return some pretty nice picks/prospects. It just seems like bad asset management for a team that's still very early in the rebuild, thin at center, goalie, left D, and devoid of 'any' super star talent.

Still, having a legit stud like Sergachev to put with Seider, Hrokek and a 'healthy' DeKeyser, that looks like an actual NHL defense! Been a couple years since that was a thing in Detroit... so I think most of us could live with that move.
 
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Winger98

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Feb 27, 2002
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I get it, the whole bird in the hand thing.

But why not take Drysdale at 4, and save the cap space for other futures? That 6+ million left available might return some pretty nice picks/prospects. It just seems like bad asset management for a team that's still very early in the rebuild, thin at center, goalie, left D, and devoid of 'any' super star talent.

Still, having a legit stud like Sergachev to put with Seider, Hrokek and a 'healthy' DeKeyser, that looks like an actual NHL defense! Been a couple years since that was a thing in Detroit... so I think most of us could live with that move.

We might just have to build a team without that. Most of us are pretty resigned to another losing season, but unless the lotto quits crapping on us we're either going to have to get a fair bit of luck in that 3-6 pick range or just build a team of very very good players but maybe no *great* ones. Or just rebuild forever.

If we can get Sergaechev affordably, then have Rasmussen/Veleno/Seider come up and become good regulars in the next 1-2 seasons, and have a few of the kids behind them take some steps...we're suddenly looking at a pretty good team.
 
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Henkka

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Jan 31, 2004
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I wouldn't base any rebuild for lottery.

St. Louis Blues, current core highest picks
#3
#4
#5
#8
---------
#14
#16
#20
#21
#26
#31

So of those picks, there's 4 Top8 picks. Kind of the time period you are on the bottom and you have to hit with those picks. Then everything from #14 to #31 you are already a playoff team, and if you draft/develop well, you can be a successful team. You don't have to tank forever. It's 4-5 years on the bottom.

We have made our #6, #9, #6 and now #4 at 2020. I think it will need another at Top5, but then it's time to raise up.

Same for Boston Bruins
#10
#14
#14
#15
---------
#18
#21
#21
#25
#26
#28
#29

4 picks from outside the playoffs position. 7 picks as being a playoff team.

And how about Philadelphia, 4th best team at this season:

#2
#2
#7
#7
#8
#11
#14
#17
#18
#20
#22
#24
#24
#27
#28
#29
#31

Flyers have 4/5 picks on the Top8. Majority of tanking-choir is only seeing these Pittsburgh's Tampa's and Washington's with their superstars, but there's also this another half in NHL which are built without lottery luck. Like, Flyers already had some lottery luck for Nolan Patrick, which is already negated, thanks to his bad injury luck. They have done their rise by drafting/developing well.

Imo, it's our way. We have always been great drafting and developing organization. System play organization etc. Just smarter off-ice. Time to build for that and not hope for any luck.
 
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Retire91

Stevey Y you our Guy
May 31, 2010
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It will be tough to know until 4-5 years from now when the new management team's deeper picks start to take shape in what they will ultimately develop into. I agree you don't need the lottery but when you have a management team that was as incompetent as Holland your only hope was the lottery and I think that stuck with people. They want a quick injection a first overall pick can bring because of the lack of league leading talent there has been for a while now.

It is still going to take several years to get a team together that will be a more legitimate NHL team. There is no need to mediocre your way out of the lottery just to be the 4th from last team. I just don't see the benefit. Going from the top of the bubble teams that don't make it to last place on purpose is one thing, trying to be the 5th from last team when that is your top end, I just don't see the point.
 

Henkka

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It is still going to take several years to get a team together that will be a more legitimate NHL team. There is no need to mediocre your way out of the lottery just to be the 4th from last team. I just don't see the benefit. Going from the top of the bubble teams that don't make it to last place on purpose is one thing, trying to be the 5th from last team when that is your top end, I just don't see the point.

I see the point, just build generally better.

Like free UFA assets. Krug and Lehner would plug obvious holes, and would be free assets. Then you can trade other assets, when you have proven ones, and buy time for kid goalies to develop. This goalie-thing is a no-brainer for me. Having Lehner or no-Lehner does not rise us off from the worst team. But it will give more meaningful hockey. Guys won't log out so soon as there was games at last season everybody logged off after Howard did let in the first easy goal. This can't happen any longer, or anykind of right lockerroom culture is lost.

If Krug is willing to come, we can trade some pieces from defence. People are desperately wanting these Drysdales etc, who are years away from being strong backbones for our team. Ryan Ellis was drafted 2009, he became Nashville regular at 2013-14, so it took 4-5 years for him. You can add proven defence pretty easily, from current market, with under 30-aged guys and cost-controlled way, and target forwards in future drafts. Forwards pan out faster. Perfetti or Raymond will do damage with their ELCs, don't think any defenceman from this 2020 will do.

When you build the team overall better, also the production level will rise. That will raise the trade value of certain guys. Now nobody isn't going to pay huge futures about a guy like Mantha, because he doesn't look like that. That thing isn't proven yet, just speculated. But have a good season for him, surrounded by elite talent, and there will be GMs taking phonecalls. And you need one crazy and desperate guy to make a stupid offer like multiple 1st round picks to pull the trigger. If you don't build this kind of environment at all, that phonecall never happens.

Everything adds on. Staying on the bottom does not add on anything. We just slide year by year with current guys faster against their free agency, and some will bolt out. But if we build this team, on every areas, it will be motivational for the "losing" core, maybe they like to stay, maybe they see some hope, that this team could turn things out faster than thought. Or they still want out, but at least the team is playing better and their trade value is rising. GM is starting to like his options.

You have to build an environment, where you have too much options. A surplus. Then you can start trading pieces.

If you don't add quality from outside, I think it will be the Sabres rebuild. Still not going anywhere, even though they have the pieces many in Detroit are hoping for. Just too much of those losing seasons in-a-row and bad culture to shave out.

***

And I had different opinions about taking some salary dumps earlier on, when cap was estimated to rise. There would have been that extra space on our cap to take some other contracts.

Now, after the cap rise is deleted thanks to corona, I don't want take any other teams camp dumps to our team. We already have our own in Nielsen and Abdelkader. We deal with them, maybe buyoyt or bury them.

Let others suffer with their guys. That effect will push good people out, and we should target those good players. Not these cap dumps.
 
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Retire91

Stevey Y you our Guy
May 31, 2010
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I am in favor of Lehner I think the wings should have jumped on him every time he was available. I think Lehner should be viewed as a long term core solution. Goalies like Lehner can have massive late career surges and also long careers. I am willing to sign up for that risk. The trouble I have with Krug and I have been vocal about it in other threads is that he is meaningless to our core. By the time our core is functioning he will no longer be the best player on the team and there is some probability that he could actually decline to a negative asset. But he will be the highest paid player on the team. To me that is terrible asset management. Now if he will come in on a 2 year deal. Or he will take a cap friendly contract that include abosltely no NMC or NTC then I am also for it because he could be traded away when he is no longer fitting the core. So basically if Krug agrees to come aboard this organization as a mentor role and 100% easily expendlible when he no longer means anything to this roster, because he would, then I think we would sign. Because that is not going to happen I think we can move on from Krug. Krug is a bad contract waiting to happen. I highly doubt he even leaves Boston.

I agree with your take on "environment" I just don't agree on timing. It's not the time to pull in free agents. We need to see what the draft does first. If that is not the way it goes and Yzerman progressively builds and trades and builds until there is a solid team on a rising curve its not like I would be against the results. I just think that FA at this point in time will actually hurt long term as opposed to help. Short term they help no question. Long term they create problems I don't want to face for the short term benefit they add.
 
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Larkin1578

Registered User
Jun 22, 2015
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Sign Markstrom via free agency or trade for Demko. Goalie situation fixed with either..

Torey Krug needs to be signed. Instant impact on defense.

Bargin bin for a wing or two (no pun intended)
 
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19 for president

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Apr 28, 2002
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Sergachev is the guy I go hard after. He fits this teams rebuild age group a lot better than any dman we'd take this year or next. I'm really happy going forward with a d base around Seids, him, and Hronek.

Wings have a much better track record with forward picks and development, and forwards tend to peak/be productive earlier.

Besides that I am totally down to take an extra contract or two for a pick. Even if say we added Lehner and Serg, I still think we miss the playoffs next year so we'll still have a solid pick.
 
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Ghost of Ethan Hunt

The Official Ghost of Space Ghosts Monkey
Jun 23, 2018
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Sergachev is the guy I go hard after. He fits this teams rebuild age group a lot better than any dman we'd take this year or next. I'm really happy going forward with a d base around Seids, him, and Hronek.

Wings have a much better track record with forward picks and development, and forwards tend to peak/be productive earlier.

Besides that I am totally down to take an extra contract or two for a pick. Even if say we added Lehner and Serg, I still think we miss the playoffs next year so we'll still have a solid pick.
Serg. & Cirelli are pipe dreams. I've clamored for both, but realistically, they're going nowhere. Somebody will deal with TBL. A player may waive even, though not likely. They'd absorb a Sergachev absence in the playoffs easier than they would a Cirelli but for future asset core pieces, Serg is likely the Top Pair Dman, vs. Cirelli who is likely maxed @2C.
 
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Henkka

Registered User
Jan 31, 2004
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My hot take is that we should stay away from Krug, it has bad contract written all over it

Where do these bad contract fears come from? For what factor are they based?

And what does a bad contract mean, if he becomes our most productive defencemen? Even if he would have some defensive flaws?

Guy is Captain material, would question Larkin as Team Captain, and comes from a long-time winning organization. Bruins have become the success-machine like we were before and he has been a big part of it. You add especially this kind of guys. Former Michigan State Captain would be exactly right guy on Wings lockerroom.
 
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The Zetterberg Era

Ball Hockey Sucks
Nov 8, 2011
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Serg. & Cirelli are pipe dreams. I've clamored for both, but realistically, they're going nowhere. Somebody will deal with TBL. A player may waive even, though not likely. They'd absorb a Sergachev absence in the playoffs easier than they would a Cirelli but for future asset core pieces, Serg is likely the Top Pair Dman, vs. Cirelli who is likely maxed @2C.

Tampa's dumps are useful players, like they get stuff while still moving on from Johnson, Killorn, Gourde.... I mean those guys are okay, they might make too much or whatever else, but they are top 6ish certainly top 9 players. Now we can look at adding those with their price maybe being a little distressed. We can use some of our draft capital. I know that will upset some but we have picked more players than any other team in the NHL the last three seasons. We can spend to help this group a little, we don't need to be historically bad. There is a decent chance we are still in the basement the next couple years anyway. But we need to try and avoid a horrific losing culture. I know some will say it has already arrived, I don't see Buffalo, Edmonton, Arizona, Chicago, Pittsburgh or some of the other super embarrassing ones I have seen. They aren't good but not really for long enough yet, now more rock bottom for 4 or 5 years we could have a real problem.

I don't think you totally throw your hands up and just let this thing go harder aground. I can get my head around some of those moves like taking on Eriksson's contract for like a Demko is probably enough value to just take a third line regressing Eriksson. Even there he would help the room. We need to do something to improve the team this year and get some long-term gains. I don't think Yzerman is going to want to be just as bad next year, NHL front offices really don't work that way even if fans can from time to time.
 

SirloinUB

Registered User
Aug 20, 2010
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Tampa's dumps are useful players, like they get stuff while still moving on from Johnson, Killorn, Gourde.... I mean those guys are okay, they might make too much or whatever else, but they are top 6ish certainly top 9 players. Now we can look at adding those with their price maybe being a little distressed. We can use some of our draft capital. I know that will upset some but we have picked more players than any other team in the NHL the last three seasons. We can spend to help this group a little, we don't need to be historically bad. There is a decent chance we are still in the basement the next couple years anyway. But we need to try and avoid a horrific losing culture. I know some will say it has already arrived, I don't see Buffalo, Edmonton, Arizona, Chicago, Pittsburgh or some of the other super embarrassing ones I have seen. They aren't good but not really for long enough yet, now more rock bottom for 4 or 5 years we could have a real problem.

I don't think you totally throw your hands up and just let this thing go harder aground. I can get my head around some of those moves like taking on Eriksson's contract for like a Demko is probably enough value to just take a third line regressing Eriksson. Even there he would help the room. We need to do something to improve the team this year and get some long-term gains. I don't think Yzerman is going to want to be just as bad next year, NHL front offices really don't work that way even if fans can from time to time.

I definitely agree on some sense. Adding some legit support so we aren’t the worst by a mile is an idea I support.

at the same time, with a flat cap for 3 years, contenders and budget teams will have increasingly less flexibility which could increase our leverage in taking on cap casualties and cap dumps.

miss always true, but now more than ever we need Yzerman to be shrewd and drive a real hard bargain in trade negotiations. There really aren’t any other “big budget” teams with cap room to spare so let’s make it count.
 

Bench

3 is a good start
Aug 14, 2011
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And @Bench , what do you see Dallas doing with Bishop?

Right up until a few weeks ago, the plan was firmly to hang onto Bishop until their heir apparent Oettinger is ready. It's only this recent hot streak from Khudobin that has put it into question at all.

Bishop's contract is great and he's still playing well, so it will be interesting to see what they do.
 

The Zetterberg Era

Ball Hockey Sucks
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Right up until a few weeks ago, the plan was firmly to hang onto Bishop until their heir apparent Oettinger is ready. It's only this recent hot streak from Khudobin that has put it into question at all.

Bishop's contract is great and he's still playing well, so it will be interesting to see what they do.

He just gets hurt too much.

I wonder if we could get Oettinger out of them though. He might be getting forced to Seattle, would Dallas like something for him. I like him as a young goaltender that I think is ready to take some steps shortly.
 

Bench

3 is a good start
Aug 14, 2011
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He just gets hurt too much.

I wonder if we could get Oettinger out of them though. He might be getting forced to Seattle, would Dallas like something for him. I like him as a young goaltender that I think is ready to take some steps shortly.

I love Oettinger. But what does Dallas have if they move him? I don't see why Nill entertains that idea.

Khudobin is 34 and has never started more than 40 games in a season. Bishop, is going to be 34 soon and, like you said, has injury concerns.

Oettinger is their future.
 

The Zetterberg Era

Ball Hockey Sucks
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I love Oettinger. But what does Dallas have if they move him? I don't see why Nill entertains that idea.

Khudobin is 34 and has never started more than 40 games in a season. Bishop, is going to be 34 soon and, like you said, has injury concerns.

Oettinger is their future.

But are they keeping him over whatever one of the other two they play next year.

Seattle should be all over Oettinger or Demko if they are there.

That being at the end of next year.... If you're Khudobin don't you force a NMC for season one if you're singing a 4 year end my career Dallas deal... That is why nobody thought he was in their future plans. Frankly the smart move despite the run would still be to let him go. This is a Neimi kind of run for me. I know he has played well in Dallas, but I don't see an elite tender there. Good for him he has maximized what he is and I think he is solid dude, but I am not sure why you choose him over either Bishop (who I have always been lower on than most) and Oettinger. I just cannot see it, but if Nill pulls the trigger, I hope Stevie picks up the phone and asks about Oettinger while the ink is drying on Khudobin's contract.
 

Henkka

Registered User
Jan 31, 2004
31,213
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Tampere, Finland
This is all SY should be doing

We lost the draft lottery but we can win the draft by adding picks(at minimum another 1st) and some further along prospects

Forget free agency

We should exploit both. Free agent are... FREE agents.

Any trade not involving an extra asset (like higher pick for lower pick), is worse than getting a free agent.

Also, I would not collect any extra contracts, for crap players. They won't upgrade the team. Those should upgrade the team, and I'm quite sure no one is gonna trade that level player away, which does upgrade Wings as much as Torey Krug -level of free agent. Because other teams like to keep those level of players.

Only special cases are like Fleury/Lehner -situations, where exists really two quality options and it's sure they keep only 1.

Still, what comes to free agents, signing an extra elite guy, will push somebody else out. For example, Cholowski.

- Getting Krug for free
- Cholowski becomes trade bait
- Cholowski traded for draft pick

Then it's like a trade:

Krug + draftpick <> Cholowski.

It's an insane win in asset management.
 

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