Weaponized cap space?

[Retire91]

If we are going to sign 30 year old defenseman we need to sign them for 2-3 years so that we can move on at the end of the contract. Guys like Pietrangelo and Krug are not going to sign 2-3 year deals and near the end of their contracts, where we really need their skill for playoff runs, it's very likely their cap hit will far exceed their contribution. Count me out when these names keep coming up that are going to be north of 8 million dollars for 6-7 years.

 

[Winger98]

Agreed, I think Yzerman will sign one or two veteran defensemen to short-term deals.

Bouwmeester? Gudas? Sekera?

I've been pushing Andy Greene and Brenden Dillon. Could get behind Gudas. I'd be surprised if Bouwmeester doesn't just take whatever St. Louis offers and stays put, the guy has a good gig there. So much probably rests on what the AHL can do this fall/winter and if a lot of our young guys have places to play. I'd like to see a lot of guys in GR for at least another half year, but not if they have no where else to play.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I've been pushing Andy Greene and Brenden Dillon. Could get behind Gudas. I'd be surprised if Bouwmeester doesn't just take whatever St. Louis offers and stays put, the guy has a good gig there. So much probably rests on what the AHL can do this fall/winter and if a lot of our young guys have places to play. I'd like to see a lot of guys in GR for at least another half year, but not if they have no where else to play.

I would think Jay-Bo is done at this point with what happened in Anaheim this season. I expect him to retire this off-season.

 

[Winger98]

If we are going to sign 30 year old defenseman we need to sign them for 2-3 years so that we can move on at the end of the contract. Guys like Pietrangelo and Krug are not going to sign 2-3 year deals and near the end of their contracts, where we really need their skill for playoff runs, it's very likely their cap hit will far exceed their contribution. Count me out when these names keep coming up that are going to be north of 8 million dollars for 6-7 years.

In 6-7 years they will be 35-37 years old. I think the hope is that they provide stability to bring kids in behind them for a few years, and then we have some kids over take them so they can drift back into "helper" roles the last few years of their contracts - sort of like what J-Bo has been doing for st. louis while Pietrangelo and Parayko do the heavy lifting.

 

[Retire91]

It's going to be a very strange season but even more so if there is no AHL. I think lot's of teams will be putting players on the roster you would not normally have seen so they can get play time. I feel like we should just bring up our AHL talent and see what we got at the end of the season then look to make moves. No sense filling holes in the roster with premium UFA when you don't know what you are going to land in the draft the next season or two. The core needs sink or swim talent and not talent that needs to play behind veteran mediocrity. It will be a tough season but at the end of it we will be that much closer to knowing what we are truly working with and its going to be a tough season weather the roster is bandaided or not.

In 6-7 years they will be 35-37 years old. I think the hope is that they provide stability to bring kids in behind them for a few years, and then we have some kids over take them so they can drift back into "helper" roles the last few years of their contracts - sort of like what J-Bo has been doing for st. louis while Pietrangelo and Parayko do the heavy lifting.

J-bo has a 3 million dollar cap hit, I am fine with a helper role for 3 mill. Not 9 mill. You can sign helpers any off season I just don't see the advantage of locking in 12% of your cap hit in one guy when the team doesn't even have a full core yet.

 

[Ricelund]

I would think Jay-Bo is done at this point with what happened in Anaheim this season. I expect him to retire this off-season.

Ah yeah, I forgot about that.

 

[newfy]

I would be interested if Sargachev for #4 started gaining traction.

On a side note I pretty much ignore the whole good draft bad draft claims that come up every season, it's been wrong so many times its just a ridiculous unsubstantiated claim that grows legs every upcoming draft year. No one can know how 16 17 and 18 year olds are going to develop. They can literally develop exponentially in a matter of months.

The more I think of these red wing teams, the more I'm unsure that they should be trading for Sergachev. Someone said he matches the core age better, but honestly the "core" of Larkin, Mantha, Bertuzzi are going to be the ones who pass the reigns over to the young group who is going to make Detroit good again. Its going to be Zadina, Seider, this year, next year and probaly the year after who are doing the most when Detroit is good again. Guys like Mantha and Larkin are going to pave the way, take the pressure off and help them develop. Theyre going to play roles obviously but wont be the top dogs (even if Larkin has the C) on the team. Trading for Sergachev to match these guys age doesnt make a tonne of sense to me.

But your last point is so true. You can tell when a draft has an absolute stud right at the top but after that theres always questions. People absolutely shit on the 2017 draft because Hischier and Patrick werent McDavid/Eichel calibre of guys. But 3/4/5 are absolute studs that all should've went ahead of those two. Heiskanen and Makar are on pace to win a few norris trophies between the 2 of them and Pettersson is going to be a franchise 1st overall type center. It might not be the best draft lately (it isnt) but its definitely not bad at all like people were trying to say

 

[Retire91]

The more I think of these red wing teams, the more I'm unsure that they should be trading for Sergachev. Someone said he matches the core age better, but honestly the "core" of Larkin, Mantha, Bertuzzi are going to be the ones who pass the reigns over to the young group who is going to make Detroit good again. Its going to be Zadina, Seider, this year, next year and probaly the year after who are doing the most when Detroit is good again. Guys like Mantha and Larkin are going to pave the way, take the pressure off and help them develop. Theyre going to play roles obviously but wont be the top dogs (even if Larkin has the C) on the team. Trading for Sergachev to match these guys age doesnt make a tonne of sense to me.

But your last point is so true. You can tell when a draft has an absolute stud right at the top but after that theres always questions. People absolutely shit on the 2017 draft because Hischier and Patrick werent McDavid/Eichel calibre of guys. But 3/4/5 are absolute studs that all should've went ahead of those two. Heiskanen and Makar are on pace to win a few norris trophies between the 2 of them and Pettersson is going to be a franchise 1st overall type center. It might not be the best draft lately (it isnt) but its definitely not bad at all like people were trying to say

Yes this has been a lot on my mind as well. Larkin and Mantha present a bit of a problem timing wise, mantha more so than larkin. I think bridging the two cores would have been more realistic if we got some top 2 talent this draft so we are going to need to luck out and get someone who would be number 1 or 2 in a redraft 5 years from now. But I am with you I have reservations about UFA and trades that are more on the Mantha side of the core because in all actuality the core is Seider. Also power forward games tend to taper off more dramatically in their 30's, not always but statistically. Is mantha really part of the core? I am starting to wonder more an more if Mantha should be shopped before we start thinking about moving picks.

This could be looked back on as one of the biggest mistakes of the franchise but imagine the return in picks and prospects Yzerman could pull if he shopped the big 3 and went all in on the 18-20 year old age group.

I think realistically something more in the middle of both extremes will happen. Yzerman has a pretty good track record on strategy and asset exchange.

 

[Winger98]

J-bo has a 3 million dollar cap hit, I am fine with a helper role for 3 mill. Not 9 mill. You can sign helpers any off season I just don't see the advantage of locking in 12% of your cap hit in one guy when the team doesn't even have a full core yet.

St. Louis was paying J-Bo $5.4m to be a 2nd/3rd banana back in 14/15, though. At the time, his cap was 8.4% of the cap when he signed. And right now, Pietrangelo wouldn't be the helper, he'd be the main guy back there making it so the rest of the kids aren't thrown to the fire so much. Paying him 12% to be that guy, and him having the ability to be that guy, isn't an unfair price, imo. I don't think this is likely at all, especially since we didn't take a top spot in the lotto. And I'm not sure I'd pick this direction, but I don't think the idea is bad.

I don't think we can just throw the kids out there, I think we're asking to be awful again and risk them just getting buried. I think some help is a necessity.

One thought to tack on, though. The contract just might not matter because guys like Larkin, Mantha, and Bertuzzi will have been dealt by the end of that deal anyway and the cap space will be there.

 

[Bench]

And I'm not sure I'd pick this direction, but I don't think the idea is bad.

This is the most concise opinion folks seem to have regarding my recent takes about the roster.

 

[Henkka]

I am starting to wonder more an more if Mantha should be shopped before we start thinking about moving picks.

This could be looked back on as one of the biggest mistakes of the franchise but imagine the return in picks and prospects Yzerman could pull if he shopped the big 3 and went all in on the 18-20 year old age group.

I think realistically something more in the middle of both extremes will happen. Yzerman has a pretty good track record on strategy and asset exchange.

Have you thought about bolstering the roster with free assets, and how it would put all our current guys to look better and raise their value? Then you can start selling them.

When they look good, value is high. Most stupid thing is to sell them at their lowest value.

Keeping a crap roster, where their production is drastically regressed thanks to horrible teammates, their value will never be up. We just lose them by time and nobody ever offers anything.

Also, what I have heard from real players, it really matters for development who do you play with. Bad passes killing a good play depresses like hell. Great skill level from a teammates raises the overall feelings, man that was good play, let's do it again. Everything positive cumulates.

More mediocre guys here and there, year after year, will frustrate the rare good guys, because they'll never achieve anything. We can't let this crap happen for very long.

 

[Ghost of Ethan Hunt]

Anybody, raise your hand if this screams, "need 2 more actual NHL defensemen".

I have very high hopes for Seider, but that's all the more reason to give him more stability to develop in. I really hope Detroit adds some decent blue liners to the mix before next season.

I'm hoping for Brodie, but that's not this thread.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Look, that's a big number, but...

If Doug Armstrong and the Blues get cute and don't want to pay that, I'm going to be insanely disappointed if Yzerman doesn't step up and offer it.

Plus the cap hit wouldn't seem that bad when the Wings play him 48 minutes a night.

 

[Voodoo Glow Skulls]

Sign those UFA's that want to stay in the show for a couple more years.

Target hard working vets, but nothing long term(over 3 years).

Trading for one of the above might net assets, if they don't completely suck.

----


But I agree any rebuilding teams need solid vets to help them into the league.

 

[Astyanax]

Offer sheets don't make a ton of sense with as bad as we are. You're giving up a top 5 pick if you offer-sheet. I just cannot see us being active there, it would be interesting if we offer-sheeted Tampa though, they would know they control a top 5 pick so with them in their situation they might actually be more okay letting an offer-sheet happen from us than others.

Moreover, not just one. If the player is worth an offer-sheet it will likely cost 4 1st and as bad as we are they all be top 10 at least.

 

[Hen Kolland]

Moreover, not just one. If the player is worth an offer-sheet it will likely cost 4 1st and as bad as we are they all be top 10 at least.

Which RFA are you thinking is worth a contract at over $10.5 million? In this year's class you've got Barzal, Reinhart, PLD, DeAngelo.

Next year's class has a lot of nice names, but I'd wager their teams are not going to hesitate to resign them. Very few look like they aren't one of the more important players on their team. Laine, Pettersson, Dahlin, Svechnikov, Tkachuk, Heiskanen, Makar

 

[Retire91]

St. Louis was paying J-Bo $5.4m to be a 2nd/3rd banana back in 14/15, though. At the time, his cap was 8.4% of the cap when he signed. And right now, Pietrangelo wouldn't be the helper, he'd be the main guy back there making it so the rest of the kids aren't thrown to the fire so much. Paying him 12% to be that guy, and him having the ability to be that guy, isn't an unfair price, imo. I don't think this is likely at all, especially since we didn't take a top spot in the lotto. And I'm not sure I'd pick this direction, but I don't think the idea is bad.

I don't think we can just throw the kids out there, I think we're asking to be awful again and risk them just getting buried. I think some help is a necessity.

One thought to tack on, though. The contract just might not matter because guys like Larkin, Mantha, and Bertuzzi will have been dealt by the end of that deal anyway and the cap space will be there.

I see I just have a different take as good as Pietrangelo is he still doesn't help this team out of the gutter. Its going to take more than a marquee UFA and there is a strong likelihood that twoards the end of that contract he would be a helper role making almost max cap hit. If that is not hurting the team's ability to be a contender at that point then we would have bigger problems. I would just personally rather build through the draft.

Core NHL players do not need to be surrounded by talent to be effective, they are their own talent, they make their own space and create their own chances. If the young guys are put into the roster and they struggle it is not because we put them in over their head, its because they are not core material.

Right now we don't need guys that "need" to be supported by other talent, we need the guys that are the support for other players that need support. And there is no better way to find out who core players are then to get them in the game and see what they are made of.

There is no UFA moves that make this team less of a dumpster fire, and we don't need players that need UFA to succeed. That is why I am totally against UFA. Its just spending cap for no other reason to be mediocre and pad the performance of sub-par prospects.

Now I understand cases where someone needs to work their game or they are not physically mature enough for the NHL. Give them a year or two in the AHL or overseas there is no reason for every 18 year old to come up. But if they are being held in the AHL because the Detroit roster does not have the talent to shelter them then that is not even a player that is going to help us build anyway.

 

[Retire91]

Have you thought about bolstering the roster with free assets, and how it would put all our current guys to look better and raise their value? Then you can start selling them.

When they look good, value is high. Most stupid thing is to sell them at their lowest value.

Keeping a crap roster, where their production is drastically regressed thanks to horrible teammates, their value will never be up. We just lose them by time and nobody ever offers anything.

Also, what I have heard from real players, it really matters for development who do you play with. Bad passes killing a good play depresses like hell. Great skill level from a teammates raises the overall feelings, man that was good play, let's do it again. Everything positive cumulates.

More mediocre guys here and there, year after year, will frustrate the rare good guys, because they'll never achieve anything. We can't let this crap happen for very long.

I have always been okay with that if we are talking 1-2-3 year deals. What I am against are long term marquee free agents at near max cap for 6-7 years who are going to be declining to veteran plug status towards the end of their contracts when we will need what they brought in the beginning the most. That is what its a terrible time to be thinking 7-8 million dollar 6 year UFA

 

[Ghost of Ethan Hunt]

We need more of this:

Chicago's Undrafted Europeans:

Kahun, Kubalik, Rutta & now Suter.
​

+ Panarin, Kempny, & Raanta

=1w,2w,3w + #5/6D Kempny, + 1G Raanta. +Suter (C)
------------
Pitt -Stole Schultz a few yrs ago, stole John Marino for 6thrd., stole Petterson. 3 Top4 D now or at one point.
_______
LA stole someone too iirc...can't atm.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

We need more of this:

Chicago's Undrafted Europeans:

Kahun, Kubalik, Rutta & now Suter.
​

+ Panarin, Kempny, & Raanta

=1w,2w,3w + #5/6D Kempny, + 1G Raanta. +Suter (C)
------------
Pitt -Stole Schultz a few yrs ago, stole John Marino for 6thrd., stole Petterson. 3 Top4 D now or at one point.
_______
LA stole someone too iirc...can't atm.

Kubalik was drafted by LA and his rights were traded to Chicago because they couldn't come to terms with him. Good piece of business, if I remember right for just a 4th or 5th in last year's draft.

 

[Ghost of Ethan Hunt]

Kubalik was drafted by LA and his rights were traded to Chicago because they couldn't come to terms with him. Good piece of business, if I remember right for just a 4th or 5th in last year's draft.

Yep. Also NYR with Georgiev. future 1G, only time will tell.

 

[Ghost of Ethan Hunt]

Interesting that off a very quick scan of a list, I see ~$60-$65/70M total Cap unused at season's end, rougly $2M/team. So that is a safe, but pretty real $/#. Once that dissipates, it'll have a trickle down among the bottom ~8-12 that have more space.

Impending 1849 Cal. Cap Gold Rush stirring up.

 

[passive voice]

I'm surprised people who sat through Weiss/Green/Nielsen/Daley + Helm/Abdelkader (am I forgetting any?) need to hear this but you're probably better off sitting this out entirely.
-A Canucks Fan

 

[Hen Kolland]

I'm surprised people who sat through Weiss/Green/Nielsen/Daley + Helm/Abdelkader (am I forgetting any?) need to hear this but you're probably better off sitting this out entirely.
-A Canucks Fan

Yep, you know it. Let every mistake a previous management group made trying to hold on to a competitive window be the guiding light for how you determine what "good business" is as a rebuilding team, with significant unused cap space and a need to acquire futures.

 

[Hatter of the Beach]

Wonder if St. Louis would want to unload Jake Allen so they can resign Pieterangelo (butchered that spelling). Maybe we can wiggle out a 22 first, or Kyrou/Kostin and a 3rd