Injury Report: Virus protocol: Feb 12. Laughton + Lindblom; Prev: Voracek, Frost, Giroux, Braun, and Sanheim Added

[TCTC]

Reality is Hayes had played:

82 reg season games: 29 goals, 23 assists, 52 points
16 playoff games: 4 goals, 9 assists, 13 points

The results have been there. And Christ, if he scored in 25% of his breakaways or passed the puck to open players, he could be a 60+ point guy.

His production has been extremely consistent over his career so far. His worst season was his second year when he had 36 points. Apart from that he's been a 40-55 point player every season. That's the player he is and that's the player we were hoping for when we signed him. He's been a massive contributor to our scoring depth.

 

[FlyTimmo]

Reality is Hayes had played:

82 reg season games: 29 goals, 23 assists, 52 points
16 playoff games: 4 goals, 9 assists, 13 points

The results have been there. And Christ, if he scored in 25% of his breakaways or passed the puck to open players, he could be a 60+ point guy.

Not too bad

 

[FatTugboatFlahr]

The Hayes obsession is so f***ing weird. You would think he has 3 points this year.

 

[Starat327]

The Hayes obsession is so f***ing weird. You would think he has 300 points this year.

Edited to reflect the flip side of the coin.

 

[KrazyKat]

Reallistically we’re going to see

Morin - Couturier - Andreoff

LOL

 

[FlyTimmo]

Edited to reflect the flip side of the coin.

Maybe I have the right people muted, but it doesn't seem like people are too overzealous about Hayes.

 

[Rebels57]

Maybe I have the right people muted, but it doesn't seem like people are too overzealous about Hayes.

Yeah, not really seeing that either. Even his supporters arent dumping effusive adulation at his feet. Most realize he is flawed but valuable.

 

[dragonoffrost]

The glaring issue with Hayes. He's AV's Boy and coaches are dumb.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Hayes only has one (partial) season where he has made a true impact defensively. He was one of the worst forecheckers on the team last year. Doesn't mean he's not a good player, but I agree the two-way narrative is a bit overblown likely due to his size and puck ragging moments on the PK. He's an offensive guy through and through in a 6'5 frame.

There comes a point where shit you do on a spreadsheet is meaningless. The only paper that counts is the scoresheet.

Robert Hagg likes this post.

 

[Striiker]

Surely we're all smart enough to realize that "spreadsheets" and "scoresheets" are the same thing, which is just a way to track events on the ice.

Only difference is that the former has additional information that provides a better understanding of the situation, that way we don't say foolish things like "___ must be playing good/bad because he has __ goals". We're able to look at the whole picture instead of exclusively the end result, which is especially important in tiny sample sizes and/or when evaluating individuals.

Edited to reflect the flip side of the coin.

The people being dramatic and exaggerating the severity of the Hayes criticisms are upset that you're being dramatic and exaggerating the severity of the Hayes praise.

Can't make this up.

 

[Striiker]

Robert Hagg likes this post.

 

[Tripod]

Surely we're all smart enough to realize that "spreadsheets" and "scoresheets" are the same thing, which is just a way to track events on the ice.

Only difference is that the former has additional information that provides a better understanding of the situation, that way we don't say foolish things like "___ must be playing good/bad because he has __ goals". We're able to look at the whole picture instead of exclusively the end result, which is especially important in tiny sample sizes and/or when evaluating individuals.


The people being dramatic and exaggerating the severity of the Hayes criticisms are upset that you're being dramatic and exaggerating the severity of the Hayes praise.

Can't make this up.

You would rather someone play better...but get worse result. I personally would rather someone play a "little" worse, but actually get the production.

At some point, just playing well is not good enough if there are no results behind all the effort.

Hayes is a flawed player for sure. It's why most hoped he would be pushed down to the 3rd C spot by Patrick. But him getting the RESULTS that he has shouldn't be a source of criticism especially because he doesn't get the Couts "push" that every winger that gets to play with Couts does.

It's just odd to see a 29 goal, 52 point #2/3C get ragged on so much....likely because he is overpaid and it's a flaw on Fletch.

 

[Tripod]

Hayes only has one (partial) season where he has made a true impact defensively. He was one of the worst forecheckers on the team last year. Doesn't mean he's not a good player, but I agree the two-way narrative is a bit overblown likely due to his size and puck ragging moments on the PK. He's an offensive guy through and through in a 6'5 frame.


Robert Hagg likes this post.

Difference is, Hagg gets his results by pure luck....Hayes actually contributes to getting positive results.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Difference is, Hagg gets his results by pure luck....Hayes actually contributes to getting positive results.

That does not align with this opinion.

I personally would rather someone play a "little" worse, but actually get the production.

Hagg has "produced" for three years now.

 

[flyersnorth]

You would rather someone play better...but get worse result. I personally would rather someone play a "little" worse, but actually get the production.

At some point, just playing well is not good enough if there are no results behind all the effort.

Hayes is a flawed player for sure. It's why most hoped he would be pushed down to the 3rd C spot by Patrick. But him getting the RESULTS that he has shouldn't be a source of criticism especially because he doesn't get the Couts "push" that every winger that gets to play with Couts does.

It's just odd to see a 29 goal, 52 point #2/3C get ragged on so much....likely because he is overpaid and it's a flaw on Fletch.

At the end of the day, we're all fans of the same team and all want the same thing.

If microstats and "process" gets your motor runnin', power to ya. If hits and +/- is your thing, sweet. If the sweet, familiar air of disappointment year after year brings you shared misery with fans online, have at it.

There's no right and wrong - just different ways to enjoy the team.

 

[Striiker]

You would rather someone play better...but get worse result. I personally would rather someone play a "little" worse, but actually get the production.

At some point, just playing well is not good enough if there are no results behind all the effort.

You're either talking out of your ass or being intentionally dishonest. Either way...

Hayes is a flawed player for sure. It's why most hoped he would be pushed down to the 3rd C spot by Patrick. But him getting the RESULTS that he has shouldn't be a source of criticism especially because he doesn't get the Couts "push" that every winger that gets to play with Couts does.

It's just odd to see a 29 goal, 52 point #2/3C get ragged on so much....likely because he is overpaid and it's a flaw on Fletch.

The post you're responding to isn't about Hayes. It's a general comment about "spreadsheets" that applies to evaluating any player on the team.

I also have no idea what the bold is supposed to mean. It's certainly not responding to anything I mentioned.

 

[Tripod]

That does not along with this opinion.


Hagg has "produced" for three years now.

You are ignoring the "plays a little worse"

Hagg plays a lot worse

 

[Starat327]

Maybe I have the right people muted, but it doesn't seem like people are too overzealous about Hayes.

My guess is you have the right people muted.

Hayes is what he is -- a good middle 6 player who has some very clear flaws to his game. His defensive acumen is WILDLY overrated, and im presuming its because he makes some good occasional plays on the PK. People always remember the nice place to break up a cross ice pass and relive pressure, but always forget the amount of times offensive rushes die on his stick because he'd rather skate around the offensive zone than pass to someone wide open. 5v5 hes... average? at best?

I don't have any problems having Hayes on the team. I think he's overpaid, but I also dont expect him to turn down someone giving him money. I wouldn't.

My issue isn't with Hayes, but rather with this folk lore hero that gets attached to him because he messages people on whatsapp and this supposed defensive acumen that is really just flashes of good defensive play that gets called out and not his consistent turnovers/killing play.

 

[Tripod]

You're either talking out of your ass or being intentionally dishonest. Either way... yikes.



The post you're responding to isn't about Hayes. It's a general comment about "spreadsheets" that applies to evaluating any player on the team.

I also have no idea what the bold is supposed to mean. It's certainly not responding to anything I mentioned.

How is it dishonest? If a player plays well and doesn't produce, who cares in the end? Especially if that player is EXPECTED to produce.

The bolded was not directed toward you...just a general comment. All of our player get a "bump" in the fancy stats when they get to play with Couts. Obviously the other centers will never(or rarely) get that bump because they are on the ice when he is not. That's all.

 

[Striiker]

How is it dishonest? If a player plays well and doesn't produce, who cares in the end? Especially if that player is EXPECTED to produce.

"How is it dishonest?" Read what you wrote again.

You would rather someone play better...but get worse result.

This is either a reading comprehension problem or an intentionally twisting words problem.

 

[Tripod]

My guess is you have the right people muted.

Hayes is what he is -- a good middle 6 player who has some very clear flaws to his game. His defensive acumen is WILDLY overrated, and im presuming its because he makes some good occasional plays on the PK. People always remember the nice place to break up a cross ice pass and relive pressure, but always forget the amount of times offensive rushes die on his stick because he'd rather skate around the offensive zone than pass to someone wide open. 5v5 hes... average? at best?

I don't have any problems having Hayes on the team. I think he's overpaid, but I also dont expect him to turn down someone giving him money. I wouldn't.

My issue isn't with Hayes, but rather with this folk lore hero that gets attached to him because he messages people on whatsapp and this supposed defensive acumen that is really just flashes of good defensive play that gets called out and not his consistent turnovers/killing play.

It all depends on the person though.

Myself, I OFTEN criticize Hayes for being a dumbass, not passing near enough, etc... But I also have no issue defending him for what he has done and that is produce, despite all the missed breakakways and being a puckhog.

Obviously I don't live in Philly so don't see the local love of Hayes, and maybe that is a good thing. For sure it seems like he and Laughton get pushed down fans throats by local media especially when they have legit star players like Couts and G.

 

[Cootsfanclub]

My guess is you have the right people muted.

Hayes is what he is -- a good middle 6 player who has some very clear flaws to his game. His defensive acumen is WILDLY overrated, and im presuming its because he makes some good occasional plays on the PK. People always remember the nice place to break up a cross ice pass and relive pressure, but always forget the amount of times offensive rushes die on his stick because he'd rather skate around the offensive zone than pass to someone wide open. 5v5 hes... average? at best?

I don't have any problems having Hayes on the team. I think he's overpaid, but I also dont expect him to turn down someone giving him money. I wouldn't.

My issue isn't with Hayes, but rather with this folk lore hero that gets attached to him because he messages people on whatsapp and this supposed defensive acumen that is really just flashes of good defensive play that gets called out and not his consistent turnovers/killing play.

He's pretty good at EV strength. Just squeaking in the top 90 for forwards in 5v5 points since joining the Flyers. He also had about the same amount of SH time last season as Coots on a pretty good PK unit.

I honestly think he's popular because he's buds with the Spittin Chiclets guys and Dave Portnoy.

 

[Striiker]

My guess is you have the right people muted.

Hayes is what he is -- a good middle 6 player who has some very clear flaws to his game. His defensive acumen is WILDLY overrated, and im presuming its because he makes some good occasional plays on the PK. People always remember the nice place to break up a cross ice pass and relive pressure, but always forget the amount of times offensive rushes die on his stick because he'd rather skate around the offensive zone than pass to someone wide open. 5v5 hes... average? at best?

I don't have any problems having Hayes on the team. I think he's overpaid, but I also dont expect him to turn down someone giving him money. I wouldn't.

My issue isn't with Hayes, but rather with this folk lore hero that gets attached to him because he messages people on whatsapp and this supposed defensive acumen that is really just flashes of good defensive play that gets called out and not his consistent turnovers/killing play.

It's really just this simple.

I'm pretty sure this is how most of the "Hayes haters" view him. He's a player with the tools to be pretty great but he's often frustrating because of the awful decisions he makes.

Somehow he ended up with a Couturier-like reputation while playing a JVR-like game.

 

[FLYguy3911]

You are ignoring the "plays a little worse"

Hagg plays a lot worse

But this flies in the face of scoresheets > spreadsheets. If he plays "a lot worse", shouldn't the results follow? You can't pick and choose what results are acceptable if that's the hill you are going to die on.

Hayes has a 105 PDO which is not sustainable, but the odd part of your argument is that Hayes does actually have good numbers relative to his teammates and in comparison to the subpar ones he posted last year. Some of that is probably due to Coots' absence, but the metrics and on-ice results are aligned pretty well so far.

FTR, I've never said Hayes was bad. I just think people's perception of him is out of whack.

 

[deadhead]

Hayes isn't overpaid, he's in the same area as JVR and Voracek, except as a center, he has extra value.
JVR is the best goal scorer, Voracek the best playmaker, Hayes the best in all situations (ES, PK, PP).
All have flaws, all don't use their size as effectively as they should, all have some defensive limitations.
AV leaned on Hayes in NY, and is leaning on JVR and Voracek here, because all three play better if pushed.

None are elite players, but all are solid top 6 guys (check their ES scoring) who aren't defensive liabilities.
All three are off to good starts and more than earning their contracts this year.