Injury Report: Virus protocol: Feb 12. Laughton + Lindblom; Prev: Voracek, Frost, Giroux, Braun, and Sanheim Added

[Tripod]

"How is it dishonest?" Read what you wrote again.


This is either a reading comprehension problem or an intentionally twisting words problem.

Sorry. I drew this conclusion from you defending Giroux's results from the playoffs while ripping Hayes.

I apologize.

 

[Striiker]

Sorry. I drew this conclusion from you defending Giroux's results from the playoffs while ripping Hayes.

I apologize.

That never happened.

So again, this is either a reading comprehension problem or an intentionally twisting words problem.

 

[Tripod]

But this flies in the face of scoresheets > spreadsheets. If he plays "a lot worse", shouldn't the results follow? You can't pick and choose what results are acceptable if that's the hill you are going to die on.

Hayes has a 105 PDO which is not sustainable, but the odd part of your argument is that Hayes does actually have good numbers relative to his teammates and in comparison to the subpar ones he posted last year. Some of that is probably due to Coots absence, but the metrics and on-ice results are aligned pretty well so far.

FTR, I've never said Hayes was bad. I just think people's perception of him is out of whack.

Maybe I am not explaining it properly....or clearly.

Hagg should be a non starter in convo's because his play is so beyond being acceptable. So not sure why he keeps getting mentioned.

Whereas Hayes is actually what he should be....not a 1st liner, and produces like a 2nd liner. Like looking at CF% since Hayes started with us, he is within 5% of everyone but Couts....and as I said, doesn't get the Couts bump. So is that 5% difference really a big issue IF he scores 29 goals a year and 50+ points and is not being caved in? I don't think it is.

Anyways, I did not mean to stir up a hornets nest. I just find it odd how Hayes is always ripped(not by you) considering he has pretty much been as expected on the ice.

 

[Tripod]

That never happened.

So again, this is either a reading comprehension problem or an intentionally twisting words problem.

Wait? Are you saying you never praised Giroux for his playoffs? And never ripped on Hayes and how his playoffs were overrated? I seems to remember that....and if I am wrong, I will own it.

I really don't want to spend any time going back to look....so how do you say their playoffs were?

 

[Striiker]

Wait? Are you saying you never praised Giroux for his playoffs? And never ripped on Hayes and how his playoffs were overrated?

Quality of play and results are two separate things.

I praised Giroux's quality of play because it was high, but his end results (specifically goals) were disappointing.

 

[Starat327]

It all depends on the person though.

Myself, I OFTEN criticize Hayes for being a dumbass, not passing near enough, etc... But I also have no issue defending him for what he has done and that is produce, despite all the missed breakakways and being a puckhog.

Obviously I don't live in Philly so don't see the local love of Hayes, and maybe that is a good thing. For sure it seems like he and Laughton get pushed down fans throats by local media especially when they have legit star players like Couts and G.

Regarding the bolded - This whole thing is being overblown. Theres one person who has an irrational hatred for Hayes (Cap), meanwhile most everyone else recognizes he's a good, but flawed player. Theres a small section of posters here that thing he's some sort of folk hero because of the aforementioned aspects of his situational play and "great locker room guy".

 

[kudymen]

Iteration #25.688 of people in roster thread reading what they think they read instead of reading the words actually written. Checking out for the next roster thread
#rentfree

edit - ah shit, the quality content spilled from the roster thread, my bad!

 

[Tripod]

Quality of play and results are two separate things.

I praised Giroux's quality of play because it was high, but his end results (specifically goals) were disappointing.

When do those results matter more? I guess that's my issue. It's been 3 years in the playoffs for Giroux where the results have been poor. You know I love G, but if he keeps playing well with no results, that's a massive issue.

Anyways...gotta run and do some orders. To get back on topic, let's hope no other Flyers players get covid and the ones that do have it/are not playing, recover fully and play well once back.

 

[Striiker]

When do those results matter more? I guess that's my issue. It's been 3 years in the playoffs for Giroux where the results have been poor. You know I love G, but if he keeps playing well with no results, that's a massive issue.

Anyways...gotta run and do some orders. To get back on topic, let's hope no other Flyers players get covid and the ones that do have it/are not playing, recover fully and play well once back.

People are only responsible for what they can control. If he played poorly as an individual all three years then we'd have a problem, but that's not the case so it's hard to really blame him, even if the end results are disappointing.

The last three playoffs:
2015-2016: injured
2017-2018: They only played 6 games and the whole team was an absolute disaster against the Pens. Only Couturier scored more than Giroux.
2019-2020: Played great, but awful luck (hit 5 posts, unsustainably low sh%) and awful coaching (system, PP, lineups) helped hurt his point totals.

 

[kudymen]

You know I love G, but if he keeps playing well with no results, that's a massive issue.

I dont understand this sentence.

a) He keeps playing well...
b) ...with no results.

So either he is not playing well or he is playing well with no team results.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Maybe I am not explaining it properly....or clearly.

Hagg should be a non starter in convo's because his play is so beyond being acceptable. So not sure why he keeps getting mentioned.

Whereas Hayes is actually what he should be....not a 1st liner, and produces like a 2nd liner. Like looking at CF% since Hayes started with us, he is within 5% of everyone but Couts....and as I said, doesn't get the Couts bump. So is that 5% difference really a big issue IF he scores 29 goals a year and 50+ points and is not being caved in? I don't think it is.

Anyways, I did not mean to stir up a hornets nest. I just find it odd how Hayes is always ripped(not by you) considering he has pretty much been as expected on the ice.

Hagg is just a reminder that results mean nothing in the big picture if they are not sustainable. And if we're talking about Hayes on a 7 year deal, I'm not that interested in counting stats. I am a hell of a lot more interested in determining what parts of his game are sustainable and not sustainable.

If we're just talking about raw Corsi, when most guys hover around 50% and the range is 40-60% league-wide, being within 5% on a team is not noteworthy. His metrics have been all over the place during his career - He has one great year, one terrible year, one good, one poor. Those numbers paint him as a volatile, high event, middle six forward. We can debate if that is worth $50 million, but that seems to check out with my eyes at least. There is a lot of noise involved in NHL point totals (and considering Hayes' style of play). I think we have much better ways of evaluating performance.

One important thing to point out with his usage this year, which could have a big impact on his future outlook, is that he's averaging almost 3 minutes a game on the PP this year after spending chunks of last season completely off the unit (something I argued against last year). I'm not sure he warrants that much usage, but if he's giving you positive value on the PP in addition to the PK, that's a much more valuable player if he continues to be an up and down ES guy.

 

[thedjpd]

I dont understand this sentence.

a) He keeps playing well...
b) ...with no results.

So either he is not playing well or he is playing well with no team results.

Clearly this means that in the playoffs his fancy stats are great but the points aren’t.

Does that mean he’s playing well or poorly? It’s excusable once - but 3 playoffs in row Giroux hasn’t produced actual points is the implication here.

We all get process, usage or randomness - but at some point, it needs to translate to actual production. Otherwise, what’s the point?

 

[BritainStix]

Theres a small section of posters here that thing he's some sort of folk hero because of the aforementioned aspects of his situational play and "great locker room guy".

Who? I have genuinely never seen anyone claim Hayes is more than what he is. A solid second line centre.

I've seen plenty of opposing views that are just flat out wrong about him though.

 

[Starat327]

Who? I have genuinely never seen anyone claim Hayes is more than what he is. A solid second line centre.

I've seen plenty of opposing views that are just flat out wrong about him though.

Its not my shtick to go back and dig up old quotes in an attempt to make people look like assholes. We have enough people here with no time on their hands to do that. They are admittedly less frequent now than before (though that may be due to my ignore list growing exponentially),but I do recall some "lol, imagine wanting to get rid of our top playoff scorer" posts in the recent past that stick out. Obviously it's statistically true, but the implication that he's more important to this team than many other players is a wild exaggeration.

 

[BritainStix]

Its not my shtick to go back and dig up old quotes in an attempt to make people look like assholes. We have enough people here with no time on their hands to do that. They are admittedly less frequent now than before (though that may be due to my ignore list growing exponentially),but I do recall some "lol, imagine wanting to get rid of our top playoff scorer" posts in the recent past that stick out. Obviously it's statistically true, but the implication that he's more important to this team than many other players is a wild exaggeration.

I do wonder if this is partly tongue in cheek to people like Cap who hate Hayes with every fibre of their being.

 

[Starat327]

I do wonder if this is partly tongue in cheek to people like Cap who hate Hayes with every fibre of their being.

I think at this point we all know who is tongue in cheek and who isn't for the most part. Like, I think most people know to not take most of my posts too serious at this point for the most part. But there's some people that are very clearly trying to "talk hockey" and are saying these things.

Again, its a small portion on both sides. I'm not really trying to blow this into a bigger issue than it is. But for everyone trying to "beat kev down" theres someone else attempting to "overinflate his impact". There seems (to me) to be this overreaction to people calling out his flaws as people attempting to make him feel like a 4th liner. It just seems like criticizing him (and others) is viewed as some extreme criticism that he's garbage. Its ok to call out that he's not a perfect player.

 

[Striiker]

I think at this point we all know who is tongue in cheek and who isn't for the most part. Like, I think most people know to not take most of my posts too serious at this point for the most part. But there's some people that are very clearly trying to "talk hockey" and are saying these things.

Again, its a small portion on both sides. I'm not really trying to blow this into a bigger issue than it is. But for everyone trying to "beat kev down" theres someone else attempting to "overinflate his impact". There seems (to me) to be this overreaction to people calling out his flaws as people attempting to make him feel like a 4th liner. It just seems like criticizing him (and others) is viewed as some extreme criticism that he's garbage. Its ok to call out that he's not a perfect player.

This whole conversation started because people got upset that Hayes was said to have an inaccurate reputation. Nobody even said he was bad or anything remotely serious.

But then the thread gets flooded by posts defending him and accusing others of overly-critiquing/ripping/ragging/obsessing over/hating/etc Hayes.

Kinda proves your point, doesn't it?

 

[Ironmanrulez]

You would rather someone play better...but get worse result. I personally would rather someone play a "little" worse, but actually get the production.

At some point, just playing well is not good enough if there are no results behind all the effort.

Hayes is a flawed player for sure. It's why most hoped he would be pushed down to the 3rd C spot by Patrick. But him getting the RESULTS that he has shouldn't be a source of criticism especially because he doesn't get the Couts "push" that every winger that gets to play with Couts does.

It's just odd to see a 29 goal, 52 point #2/3C get ragged on so much....likely because he is overpaid and it's a flaw on Fletch.

in all honesty:

I have a very hard time to like the player Hayes. The human being i dont know, i only see him in interviews, and he seems fine in the team and locker room. His results are very good for a 3rd line center who can play on the 2nd line for a number of games. I still dont like his playing style and i dont like his salary. I also dont like the duration of the contract.

But all in all he has done a very good job scoring points. And if he is able do score like he has done so far i will be ok with him in Philly. But i have doubts that he can score the way he has done here in the last months.

Lets pray to the hockey gods, that he can stay on his scoring run the next 5 years!

 

[BritainStix]

Hayes hits people as much as Sanheim does

Edit: Actually even less

What an unbelievable p***y

His reputation is a truly strange one.

Lots of fans seem to think he’s this big, strong, physical, defensively responsible, two-way center... when really he has the game of a skill player, he’s dumb as a rock, and he’s not physical at all.

This whole conversation started because people got upset that Hayes was said to have an inaccurate reputation. Nobody even said he was bad or anything remotely serious.

But then the thread gets flooded by posts defending him and accusing others of overly-critiquing/ripping/ragging/obsessing over/hating/etc Hayes.

Kinda proves your point, doesn't it?

 

[TCTC]

in all honesty:

I have a very hard time to like the player Hayes. The human being i dont know, i only see him in interviews, and he seems fine in the team and locker room. His results are very good for a 3rd line center who can play on the 2nd line for a number of games. I still dont like his playing style and i dont like his salary. I also dont like the duration of the contract.

But all in all he has done a very good job scoring points. And if he is able do score like he has done so far i will be ok with him in Philly. But i have doubts that he can score the way he has done here in the last months.

Lets pray to the hockey gods, that he can stay on his scoring run the next 5 years!

Nobody should expect him to be a point per game player. But he's been a consistent 40-55 point player basically since the start of his NHL career and that's all we need. I think 60 points is possible for him in a good year and who knows how many more years we will have to wait until Patrick reaches that benchmark.

I have no issues with his playing style either. Yes, he tends to hold on to the puck too long at times, but he's one of the few players on the team who actually can hold on to the puck without losing it to the other team. He knows how to use his body to shield the puck. Who else on the team does that except Voracek? We've seen multiple times already how valuable that can be on the PK, for example.

 

[Striiker]

A clearly sarcastic post that mocks people who call Sanheim soft or a p***y.

A post that's true and doesn't imply that he's bad. Being a skill player is good, being dumb is a negative but doesn't mean he's bad, and not being the stereotypical "physical" player isn't a problem at all.

Another true post.

 

[kudymen]

A clearly sarcastic post that mocks people who call Sanheim soft or a p***y.

A post that's true and doesn't imply that he's bad. Being a skill player is good, being dumb is a negative but doesn't mean he's bad, and not being the stereotypical "physical" player isn't a problem at all.

Another true post.

#rentfree

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

His reputation is a truly strange one.

Lots of fans seem to think he’s this big, strong, physical, defensively responsible, two-way center... when really he has the game of a skill player, he’s dumb as a rock, and he’s not physical at all.

he is not physical. Oh my God, release him now

 

[Striiker]

he is not physical. Oh my God, release him now

Have you ever seen me complain about a player not being physical? Nope.

If you read what I wrote you'd have seen that I wasn't criticizing him but instead pointing out differences between his reputation and his actual style of play.

 

[deadhead]

All three forwards would be better players if they were more physical.
JVR on the PP has moved from five feet from the net to just off the blue paint, and it's made a big difference.
When Voracek plays with an edge, he's a better player than when he floats through games.
Hayes should watch film of Couts using his body, when you're that big, it's an attribute like skating, use it.