[VAN/TBL] Cond. 1st ('20 / '21) Plus for J.T. Miller || Part 2

[CpatainCanuck]

Giving up a potential first round pick for Miller is a bad move, no matter how you sliced it.

The trade value was fine. The fact that Miller has been the canucks best forward this season is a pleasant surprise on top of it.

The question is should the Canucks be dealing for win-now players when they aren't ready to win the cup yet.

 

[VanJack]

You really can't blame posters for being skeptical when the Miller trade was first announced.

After all, this was the GM who gave up valuable picks and assets for Sutter and Gudbranson, declaring them to be a 'legitimate second line center, and a top-four defenseman', when he acquired them.

Now that the smoke has cleared, and it looks like the Devils pick via the Canucks and Tampa will be no better than 17th or 18th overall, then you can live with the Miller deal.

Although imo, it still would have been a preferable for the Canucks to be a lottery team this year, which would have meant the loss of the first rounder being pushed back to 2021. Because it's never a smart thing for a lottery team to ever trade its first rounder in the 'hopes' of being a playoff team.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

In a vacuum, the trade wasn't terrible. Like if you were to ignore the context of where the team was at and Benning's trade history, then I think people wouldn't have reacted the same way.

-Rushing a rebuild to compete and this trade appearing as a last-ditch effort to save Benning's job (no playoffs means no job for Benning). This trade isn't unique to the rebuild rush, you can see all the other age gap experiment trades Benning has made that didn't work out quite so well.

-Being a bottom 10 team in the league for 4 out of the 5 previous seasons, generally a dumb idea to trade your 1st if you have a track record of consistently being a bottom team.

-Benning's trade history and his pro scouting record were terrible prior to this trade.

-Ownership wanting to make a splash as the draft occurred in Vancouver, which may have put pressure on Benning to make a move for the wrong reasons.

-Whether or not Benning actually negotiated the deal well (considering Tampa was in a cap crunch and needed to trade Miller). Just a rumour so not the main point I'm trying to make, but doesn't exactly instill confidence in Benning's abilities.

I still think management approached finalizing this roster in an ass-backwards way. They pretty much went all-in this season with the Miller trade, Myers and Ferland signings, and Toffoli trade, knowing that it would compromise the upcoming seasons in being unable to afford impending UFAs, along with having no high draft picks and a shallow prospect pool with the subtraction of Madden. These moves should have been made in a couple of seasons to solidify our Cup window, not detract from it.

 

[bandwagonesque]

In a vacuum, the trade wasn't terrible. Like if you were to ignore the context of where the team was at and Benning's trade history, then I think people wouldn't have reacted the same way.

-Rushing a rebuild to compete and this trade appearing as a last-ditch effort to save Benning's job (no playoffs means no job for Benning). This trade isn't unique to the rebuild rush, you can see all the other age gap experiment trades Benning has made that didn't work out quite so well.

-Being a bottom 10 team in the league for 4 out of the 5 previous seasons, generally a dumb idea to trade your 1st if you have a track record of consistently being a bottom team.

-Benning's trade history and his pro scouting record were terrible prior to this trade.

-Ownership wanting to make a splash as the draft occurred in Vancouver, which may have put pressure on Benning to make a move for the wrong reasons.

-Whether or not Benning actually negotiated the deal well (considering Tampa was in a cap crunch and needed to trade Miller). Just a rumour so not the main point I'm trying to make, but doesn't exactly instill confidence in Benning's abilities.

I still think management approached finalizing this roster in an ass-backwards way. They pretty much went all-in this season with the Miller trade, Myers and Ferland signings, and Toffoli trade, knowing that it would compromise the upcoming seasons in being unable to afford impending UFAs, along with having no high draft picks and a shallow prospect pool with the subtraction of Madden. These moves should have been made in a couple of seasons to solidify our Cup window, not detract from it.

In a vacuum, as you seem to intend the term to mean, it was one of best trades any team has made in several years. In you're going to attach qualifications to the trade, at least be honest about how the trade looks before you attach them.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

In a vacuum, as you seem to intend the term to mean, it was one of best trades any team has made in several years. In you're going to attach qualifications to the trade, at least be honest about how the trade looks before you attach them.

I'm using the term with its normal meaning, an event happening in isolation from context. I don't see how you take issue with that application. I'm not attaching qualifications to the trade, just showing the context of where the team was at during the time it was made.

 

[Bleach Clean]

The trade value was fine. The fact that Miller has been the canucks best forward this season is a pleasant surprise on top of it.

The question is should the Canucks be dealing for win-now players when they aren't ready to win the cup yet.

Miller was not projected to be the best Canucks' forward at the time of transaction. The team was also abysmal for 4 years prior to said transaction.

If you take both of these key points into consideration then calling this value swap at the time "fine" would have been preposterous. It was one of the riskiest, most self-serving deals I have seen in the NHL in quite some time. So much so that you had multiple writers commenting that Benning was trying to save his job with it.

 

[Canucks LB]

Was it risky - Yes
Was it a bad move at the time considering the teams state/projection - Yes
Was giving up a potential unprotected 1st round pick in the second year stupid - yes
Did it turn out to be a bad trade - Absolutely Not
It's no doubt the best trade Jim has ever made, having a cost friendly 1st line player who has chemistry with our star is just remarkable.
Really ballsy move, it worked out somehow. (Even if they draft a top 6 Forward with the pick)

 

[vanuck]

Question: does anyone here see Miller as a PPG guy going forward?

 

[Fatass]

Miller was not projected to be the best Canucks' forward at the time of transaction. The team was also abysmal for 4 years prior to said transaction.

If you take both of these key points into consideration then calling this value swap at the time "fine" would have been preposterous. It was one of the riskiest, most self-serving deals I have seen in the NHL in quite some time. So much so that you had multiple writers commenting that Benning was trying to save his job with it.

And Benning did (sadly) accomplish that end.

 

[ChilliBilly]

I was at the draft, disgusted with the trade at the time. It may turn out to be a decent trade ..... certainly looks ok right now. but damn he was an expensive acquisition. I sure hope we give up our 1st this year. And it will hurt watching whoever NJ gets be drafted.

And anyone have any ideas on how Hugo Alnefelt is looking?

 

[RussianRacket]

As of now amazing trade. Anyone trying to criticize Benning in this regard has absolutely no legs to stand on.

Reassess in a few years.

 

[rypper]

And anyone have any ideas on how Hugo Alnefelt is looking?

The Athletic rated him 5th on their top 10 Lightning prospects.

5. Hugo Alnefelt, G, 18 (HV71)
Alnefelt grew on me quickly. His old issues of tracking the play and consistently making the simple saves as well as he makes the hard ones have both begun to sort themselves out to complement his obvious athleticism and create, at a very young age a fascinating goalie prospect who has exceeded expectations at the SHL level this season. Though he wasn’t named the top goaltender at the world juniors, he was on my all-star ballot. And while he still needs to broaden his sample size to be considered a truly top tier goalie prospect, he’s already a very good one

 

[Josepho]

Question: does anyone here see Miller as a PPG guy going forward?

I don't think it's impossible.

I figured he was going to break out into the ~65 point range, given that he was likely to be given the best combination of TOI and linemates that he'd ever gotten.

Projecting anyone to go P/G seems tough, but I don't think this year was some massive anomaly.

 

[Nucker101]

I was not a fan of this trade but I liked the player. But if people are still not on board even after hindsight then I really don't know what to say lol.

Imagine if Killorn or T.Johnson got dealt to some other team instead and we don't get Miller. Miller proceeds to have a similar amazing season with Tampa that he had year. Benning acquires Miller for the same price today, I guarantee you that the hockey world would say that Tampa should have got more in this trade, both eye-tester boomers and analytic millennials.



Tyler Myers is the deal that we should all be very afraid of. He turned 30 this year and still has 4 years left. He wasn't even worth his contract this year so I can't imagine how he's going to play as he gets older. I'd much rather have Toffoli and take my chances with Rafferty with that similar cap space.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Was it risky - Yes
Was it a bad move at the time considering the teams state/projection - Yes
Was giving up a potential unprotected 1st round pick in the second year stupid - yes
Did it turn out to be a bad trade - Absolutely Not
It's no doubt the best trade Jim has ever made, having a cost friendly 1st line player who has chemistry with our star is just remarkable.
Really ballsy move, it worked out somehow. (Even if they draft a top 6 Forward with the pick)

A top6 forward on an ELC stands to be just as valuable or more. The only thing better is a front line player like Pettersson or Tkachuk on an ELC.

I don’t believe it is reasonable to conclude how the trade has turned out when you still don’t know what is being given up. Is the 1st being dealt?

The best trade Benning has made... A rather spurious argument considering his trade record.

If the pick is in the mid to late 1st round, and they make the playoffs, that is a good result. Match that against a terrible trade at the time to come to a conclusion overall.

 

[Bleach Clean]

I was not a fan of this trade but I liked the player. But if people are still not on board even after hindsight then I really don't know what to say lol.

Imagine if Killorn or T.Johnson got dealt to some other team instead and we don't get Miller. Miller proceeds to have a similar amazing season with Tampa that he had year. Benning acquires Miller for the same price today, I guarantee you that the hockey world would say that Tampa should have got more in this trade, both eye-tester boomers and analytic millennials.



Tyler Myers is the deal that we should all be very afraid of. He turned 30 this year and still has 4 years left. He wasn't even worth his contract this year so I can't imagine how he's going to play as he gets older. I'd much rather have Toffoli and take my chances with Rafferty with that similar cap space.

In your hypothetical, how bad is Vancouver when making the trade for him? And what does the hockey world say about that team trading an unprotected 1st?

 

[Nucker101]

In your hypothetical, how bad is Vancouver when making the trade for him? And what does the hockey world say about that team trading an unprotected 1st?

wouldn't the pick be this year's middle of the pack 1st? I get what you're saying though, it's a flawed hypothetical since the Canucks would undoubtedly be lower in the standings this season without Miller and be out of a playoff spot right now.

 

[VanJack]

I was not a fan of this trade but I liked the player. But if people are still not on board even after hindsight then I really don't know what to say lol.

Imagine if Killorn or T.Johnson got dealt to some other team instead and we don't get Miller. Miller proceeds to have a similar amazing season with Tampa that he had year. Benning acquires Miller for the same price today, I guarantee you that the hockey world would say that Tampa should have got more in this trade, both eye-tester boomers and analytic millennials.



Tyler Myers is the deal that we should all be very afraid of. He turned 30 this year and still has 4 years left. He wasn't even worth his contract this year so I can't imagine how he's going to play as he gets older. I'd much rather have Toffoli and take my chances with Rafferty with that similar cap space.

I'm with you on Myers. If each team is granted one compliance buyout, many Canuckleheads are focused on Eriksson. But he only has two years left on his contract, could be buried in the minors for the last year of it.

Even though Eriksson would be considered an 'automatic' , you could make an argument for Myers. That could be one ugly contract before it's over, and by that time he could well be 6-7 on the blueline depth chart.

In a perfect world, maybe they buy-out Eriksson and trade Myers back to the Jets for someone like Jack Roslovic. Presto! $12m in cap space freed up. Wishful thinking probably.

 

[Fatass]

I'm with you on Myers. If each team is granted one compliance buyout, many Canuckleheads are focused on Eriksson. But he only has two years left on his contract, could be buried in the minors for the last year of it.

Even though Eriksson would be considered an 'automatic' , you could make an argument for Myers. That could be one ugly contract before it's over, and by that time he could well be 6-7 on the blueline depth chart.

In a perfect world, maybe they buy-out Eriksson and trade Myers back to the Jets for someone like Jack Roslovic. Presto! $12m in cap space freed up. Wishful thinking probably.

We need a better GM. Benning has ruined our cap, and is (sadly) going to trade away more of our prospects as sweetener in trades to dump the crumby contracts.

 

[Tables of Stats]

I'm glad that I was right in calling for Miller to have a career year here based on his ice-time, P/60, and general skill level. I was hoping he'd reach the 70 point range and would have been satisfied with the trade if that was what he was on pace for. PPG and being a noted mentor for Virtanen is excellent value.

The only way that changes is if we give up an obvious Boeser, Pettersson, or Hughes level prospect that it ould have been realistic for Benning to target.

 

[Addison Rae]

I think JT Miller is a monster, but let's wait to try and gauge this move. I remember when Baertschi for a 2nd was a steal, as was Granlund for Shinkaruk. Miller had a career season and was an absolute monster this year, but we're going to have to see if this is the type of player he is moving forward or if it's a mirage.

 

[Jyrki21]

Miller’s season was impressive no doubt. But let’s not act like he wasn’t also playing with Pettersson. He never would have had a season like that in Tampa, nor playing on Horvat’s wing.

And as always with a Benning acquisition, you wonder if there wasn’t an element of trying specifically to make the trade look good.

 

[nowhereman]

Miller’s season was impressive no doubt. But let’s not act like he wasn’t also playing with Pettersson. He never would have had a season like that in Tampa, nor playing on Horvat’s wing.

And as always with a Benning acquisition, you wonder if there wasn’t an element of trying specifically to make the trade look good.

So Miller tried extra hard just to make Benning look good? Alright then...

 

[Peter10]

So Miller tried extra hard just to make Benning look good? Alright then...

If you tried to miss the point, you couldnt have done any better.

 

[Tables of Stats]

Miller’s season was impressive no doubt. But let’s not act like he wasn’t also playing with Pettersson. He never would have had a season like that in Tampa, nor playing on Horvat’s wing.

And as always with a Benning acquisition, you wonder if there wasn’t an element of trying specifically to make the trade look good.

Did you miss the parts of the season where Miller was shifted around to try to give lines that had gone cold a spark? He was often the best player on the ice on any given night.