[VAN/TBL] Cond. 1st ('20 / '21) Plus for J.T. Miller || Part 2

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The Extrapolater

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Apr 22, 2014
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Been meaning to make a post. JT Miller wasn't worth a 1st and a 3rd. He definitely wasn't worth a non-lottery protected 1st and a 3rd. At best, he's an excellent middle six winger. He's best used on a team's third line, ready to move up into a team's top six when needed. Sort of a Nick Bonino type of player, but without the ability to improve his play in the playoffs.

Chris Higgins was an excellent middle six winger. Higgins was had for a 3rd round pick and a spare part. The Canucks should've started their offer with a 3rd round pick, and then began to add from there. Starting from the 1st and then adding down is ass-backwards.

JT Miller really shouldn't be the central piece to any trade except at the trade deadline when depth pieces such as him are discussed to bolster title runs. Otherwise, he's the sort that gets added to trades when trading for true all-star level talent.
 

Hit the post

I have your gold medal Zippy!
Oct 1, 2015
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Hiding under WTG's bed...
Well we were 22nd last year with a worse defence and one top 6 winger (now we have two), don’t see it! And **** it, if we are, hello Lafreniere!!
Our best defender was Marky. Alot will depend on how well he can replicate this past season's performance (no Guds or Poulliot will help). No expert predicator needed to assume Demko will get more starts (he's still essentially a NHL rookie so expect some growing pains).
 

Hoglander

I'm Höglander. I can do whatever I want.
Jan 4, 2019
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The worst possible outcome is:

4 years of J.T. Miller (an overpaid complementary top 6 forward)

for

2021 1st round pick (1st overall) + 2019 3rd round pick (71st overall)

Could you imagine?

How could anybody fully analyze this deal, and still pull the trigger on it? Incredible, really. Did he even consider it at all, because I honestly believe Jimbo was like "He can rip the puck real good, we have to get him no matter the cost"?? Shows how desperate DimJim truly is.

And how doomed this franchise is.
 
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DonnyNucker

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Our best defender was Marky. Alot will depend on how well he can replicate this past season's performance (no Guds or Poulliot will help). No expert predicator needed to assume Demko will get more starts (he's still essentially a NHL rookie so expect some growing pains).
No EG and Poliout plus Hughes? I can’t fathom our D being worse. Demko > Nilsson (and least I f***ing hope so)
 
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DonnyNucker

Registered User
Mar 28, 2017
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The worst possible outcome is:

4 years of J.T. Miller (an overpaid complementary top 6 forward)

for

2020 1st round pick (1st overall) + 2019 3rd round pick (71st overall)

Could you imagine?

How could anybody fully analyze this deal, and still pull the trigger on it? Incredible, really. Did he even consider it at all, because I honestly believe Jimbo was like "He can rip the puck real good, we have to get him no matter the cost"?? Shows how desperate DimJim truly is.

And how doomed this franchise is.
I mean, this scenario has less than a 1% chance of occurring but it is possible. Edit. To be clear, I would not have made the trade. I’m just not panicking over highly unlikely scenarios. At least not yet. That will change If we still suck in 18 months!
 
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settinguptheplay

Classless Canuck Fan
Apr 3, 2008
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Been meaning to make a post. JT Miller wasn't worth a 1st and a 3rd. He definitely wasn't worth a non-lottery protected 1st and a 3rd. At best, he's an excellent middle six winger. He's best used on a team's third line, ready to move up into a team's top six when needed. Sort of a Nick Bonino type of player, but without the ability to improve his play in the playoffs.

Chris Higgins was an excellent middle six winger. Higgins was had for a 3rd round pick and a spare part. The Canucks should've started their offer with a 3rd round pick, and then began to add from there. Starting from the 1st and then adding down is ass-backwards.

JT Miller really shouldn't be the central piece to any trade except at the trade deadline when depth pieces such as him are discussed to bolster title runs. Otherwise, he's the sort that gets added to trades when trading for true all-star level talent.

Bonino never hit 50 points once. Other than his last year in Anaheim he has not even hit 40 points. He had 1 good playoff year and was pretty ordinary in all his others. It is a stretch to say he elevated his play in the post season. Bad example but lets move on.

Higgins, whom i loved, hit 50 points once in Montreal during his third season. He was good for 35ish points a year. Not a good comparable to Miller. 8 of his 10 seasons were under 40 points in his career.

I don't think you could have made 2 worse comparisons. Miller is not a 3rd line player no matter how much you wish him to be. He has already had more 50 point season than both the players you listed combined for their entire careers.
 

DonnyNucker

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Mar 28, 2017
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Bonino never hit 50 points once. Other than his last year in Anaheim he has not even hit 40 points. He had 1 good playoff year and was pretty ordinary in all his others. It is a stretch to say he elevated his play in the post season. Bad example but lets move on.

Higgins, whom i loved, hit 50 points once in Montreal during his third season. He was good for 35ish points a year. Not a good comparable to Miller. 8 of his 10 seasons were under 40 points in his career.

I don't think you could have made 2 worse comparisons. Miller is not a 3rd line player no matter how much you wish him to be. He has already had more 50 point season than both the players you listed combined for their entire careers.
It’s perfectly fine to hate the trade but it’s kind of sad when people need to make shit up about Miller. He is a fine second line forward who is extremely versatile.
 

settinguptheplay

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Apr 3, 2008
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It’s perfectly fine to hate the trade but it’s kind of sad when people need to make **** up about Miller. He is a fine second line forward who is extremely versatile.

Here is the thing Donny. I don't actually like the trade myself. But feel the need to stop others from making stuff up to fit an agenda. It is the low hanging fruit of the forum community. Causes my brain to hurt. I don't care that people hate the trade. I get it. The idea of potentially losing a lottery pick will cause me cancer over the next two years. But why make stuff up about the player himself? As you said, he is a good player. Hate the trade but don't hate the player. This is a perfect example of group think. Just repeating what someone heard instead of investigating the details themselves.
 

Hoglander

I'm Höglander. I can do whatever I want.
Jan 4, 2019
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I mean, this scenario has less than a 1% chance of occurring but it is possible. Edit. To be clear, I would not have made the trade. I’m just not panicking over highly unlikely scenarios. At least not yet. That will change If we still suck in 18 months!
How would you feel about giving up a top 10 pick plus a 3rd for Miller?

There are players in the league that are worth unprotected firsts from teams in our position. JT Miller isn't one of them. That's the problem.

It's crazy that Benning came to this as being the only solution.
 

DonnyNucker

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Mar 28, 2017
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How would you feel about giving up a top 10 pick plus a 3rd for Miller?

There are players in the league that are worth unprotected firsts from teams in our position. JT Miller isn't one of them. That's the problem.
Oh I understand why it’s unpopular I just think a bit of reality is needed sometimes around here. it’s umlikely it’s a top 10 but it’s possible and that would suck
 

TruKnyte

On the wagon
Jan 1, 2012
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Here is the thing Donny. I don't actually like the trade myself. But feel the need to stop others from making stuff up to fit an agenda. It is the low hanging fruit of the forum community. Causes my brain to hurt. I don't care that people hate the trade. I get it. The idea of potentially losing a lottery pick will cause me cancer over the next two years. But why make stuff up about the player himself? As you said, he is a good player. Hate the trade but don't hate the player. This is a perfect example of group think. Just repeating what someone heard instead of investigating the details themselves.

Most of the posters here think Miller is a good player, just not worth the cost it took to get him. It's a smaller minority that hate the player himself.
 
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settinguptheplay

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Apr 3, 2008
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How would you feel about giving up a top 10 pick plus a 3rd for Miller?

There are players in the league that are worth unprotected firsts from teams in our position. JT Miller isn't one of them. That's the problem.

It's crazy that Benning came to this as being the only solution.

Let me know when it happens and I will tell you.
 

DonnyNucker

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Mar 28, 2017
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Most of the posters here think Miller is a good player, just not worth the cost it took to get him. It's a smaller minority that hate the player himself.
This is very true. The general consensus is solid top 6 player, bad trade. It’s just a few people that are cherry picking stats to make Miller sound like a 3rd liner
 
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settinguptheplay

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Most of the posters here think Miller is a good player, just not worth the cost it took to get him. It's a smaller minority that hate the player himself.

And that is the place I fit. Like the player not happy with the cost. But some posters are taking it way too far. So much so that they are actually making things up to support their narrative. BS like that needs to be called out.
 

Canucks1096

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Feb 13, 2016
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Been meaning to make a post. JT Miller wasn't worth a 1st and a 3rd. He definitely wasn't worth a non-lottery protected 1st and a 3rd. At best, he's an excellent middle six winger. He's best used on a team's third line, ready to move up into a team's top six when needed. Sort of a Nick Bonino type of player, but without the ability to improve his play in the playoffs.

Chris Higgins was an excellent middle six winger. Higgins was had for a 3rd round pick and a spare part. The Canucks should've started their offer with a 3rd round pick, and then began to add from there. Starting from the 1st and then adding down is ass-backwards.

JT Miller really shouldn't be the central piece to any trade except at the trade deadline when depth pieces such as him are discussed to bolster title runs. Otherwise, he's the sort that gets added to trades when trading for true all-star level talent.

Nonsense

Miller 2017 had 56 points and that put him 28th in winger scoring and 2018 he had 58 points and that put him 41st in winger scoring. There are 62 first line wingers. You can make an argument that he is 1st line winger, The numbers don't lie. At best a Middle 6 winger? It's not 1986 anymore when 50 point plus player were 3rd line players. It's 2019 now.

Now I know why people don't like the Miller trade because they don't know what kind of player he is.

At worst he is no lower than a second line winger.
 

Canucks1096

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Feb 13, 2016
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Let me clarify a few false perception/facts

1 Miller didn't score 20 goals in 3 years

That is false, I believe what is happening is when you guys are looking at his stats this is what you are seeing

2018/2019 Tampa 13 G
2017/2018 Tampa 10 G
2017/2018 NY 13 G

The 13 G and 10 G game in the same season = to 23 goals. Because around of half of season Miller was on third line and that's why his goals went down. 90% of team he is a 1st or 2nd line winger.

2 JB didn't negotiate at all on this trade.

The evidences was JB didn't spend days or weeks haggling on the trade, that doesn't mean he didn't negotiate

To prove JB did negotiate, 2020 draft is a lot better than 2021. With the condition Tampa has no chance of getting a top 15 lottery pick. So tell me Tampa decided right away to give the Canucks more benefits on the conditions. The answer is clearly No, that proves JB did negotiate

3 Millet is middle 6 winger and third line player.

It's not 1986 anymore. Third liner don't score 50 points anymore.
 

Tanknation

Registered User
Feb 24, 2012
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Thank you for this. No one had even considered this yet! Get in line my friend. Allow me to pass you a map to the Hab's forum.

With that it is time to get some sunshine.
And allow me to pass you a map to a book store where you can buy a book on "class" or perhaps under self help you can pickup " how to free myself from my bitter self and world "
 

me2

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The evidences was JB didn't spend days or weeks haggling on the trade, that doesn't mean he didn't negotiate

To prove JB did negotiate, 2020 draft is a lot better than 2021. With the condition Tampa has no chance of getting a top 15 lottery pick. So tell me Tampa decided right away to give the Canucks more benefits on the conditions. The answer is clearly No, that proves JB did negotiate

That's terrible logic. Benning has lost control over his 1sts. If he had any logic he would have made the pick 100% Canucks choice.
 
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settinguptheplay

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Apr 3, 2008
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And allow me to pass you a map to a book store where you can buy a book on "class" or perhaps under self help you can pickup " how to free myself from my bitter self and world "

I think you may have issues. . .

Oh boy you sure got me there! Now I need to go find a safe space and reevaluate my life.

Anything hockey related you wish to share? I have shared plenty as to why I think this trade has the potential to be a win for the franchise. Also to how it could be crippling. How about yourself? Or did you just come to take a dump and get a few easy likes by jumping on the haterade bandwagon. Low hanging fruit indeed.

Tell me. Is Miller a 1st, 2nd or 3rd line player? And what is the correct value for a 26 year old multi 50 point player on a 5.25m dollar contract.
 

RandV

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Ok, Lets play out a scenario.

BrisBois - TB wants a 1st and 3rd for Miller
Benning - A first is too much. We offer you two seconds instead
Sakic - Well Colorado will give you our first and third
Benning - I guess we are out

Colorado gets better and the Canucks do not

Using your own logic, if we wanted Miller we had to step up and best the other offers. Does not change the fact it is an over pay but it is a reality.

No it's not reality :laugh:

The point is you're opening offer doesn't have to be your best offer, like I said you're not doing a single blind bid where the best offer wins. You start with two 2nds (or less) and let Tampa think about, and if a Colorado comes along with a better offer you up your bid. Like I said a single 1st from Vancouver is worth a good bit more than a 1st and a 3rd from Colorado.

A lot of trading (and contract negotations) in the NHL is simply bartering, something Jim Benning has repeatedly shown he doesn't understand. Colrado's ask was an opening high ball offer, what you should be doing on the other side in this situation is come in with a low offer and negotiate towards something in the middle. If another team steps in you get an auction element to it as well.

I haven't used it for a while, but what Benning did is equivalent to going on ebay and seeing an item you want open up for auction, but rather than place a bid simply clicks the "buy now" button paying full price up front before there were even any bids.
 
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clunk

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Dec 10, 2015
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I'd much rather have payed a 5th + AHL prospect for Erik Haula than the price we payed here.

He's two years older than Miller and only has 1 year left on his deal, but he's the type of player you could flip for a 2nd at the deadline, or just re-sign.
 
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JTmillerForA1stLOL

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Oct 12, 2007
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Miller is much better than Higgins and a decent amount better than Bonino. That doesn't change the fact that this is a really bad trade though.

Not only is it a bad trade, but it's representative of how out of touch this management/ownership group is. To me that's actually the most depressing part.

We're past the point of no return too. They're prepared to go down with this ship and drag the entire franchise down with them. If this is the start of a new direction they could literally set us back for another decade.

As someone who was somewhat neutral on this management group prior to this trade, this absolutely made me lose all faith in their abilities to turn this team around. Anybody capable of making a trade like this when we're in the position that we're currently in is clearly not capable of running a professional hockey team. Heads should roll over this. But I suspect Aquilini is just as much to blame as anyone else so what can we do? We're long term screwed here and that is a very depressing reality.
 
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