USMNT Thread Part VIII

[Pavel Buchnevich]

This is Dest's quote:

From what I've been told, his quote to the media isn't the truth.

I'd be interested to see a neutral party's opinion on Pulisic vs. Davies vs. David. I do agree that North Americans in general, so starved for real stars in football, tend to overrate or get overexcited about any talent that does come through.

There are a few young guys in my hometown going pro right now (15 and 16 years old) that I wonder if they won't make a move to Europe when they're a little older similar to Jonathan David (sorry, this is off topic), but maybe they're just overhyped because of where we are.

It's not good to compare prospects to proven players. There's no comparison yet of the best 2000 born Americans to Pulisic either. They are nowhere near as established at the top level. Compare all these players in 10 years, but Pulisic is a top talent worldwide in his age group already. He's not a prospect anymore. Maybe some of that is luck when he started out, but that's not his fault that he got an early start and has done well.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

People don't forget, and he's a good player, but we really overrate the talent of the quality players that we do have.

How much better will Pulisic actually be than Donovan or Dempsey?

Adams and McKennie compared to a prime Bradley and Jones?

Heck, even having a striker produce better than Altidore is easier said than done, and I rate Altidore pretty low.

You are picking out a bunch of players from different eras and comparing them to players from a span of 2-3 years. We can't possibly be comparing these players yet to previous eras, considering a lot of them still haven't broken through. Give it a 10 year span as professionals, and then compare.

 

[bleedblue1223]

You are picking out a bunch of players from different eras and comparing them to players from a span of 2-3 years. We can't possibly be comparing these players yet to previous eras, considering a lot of them still haven't broken through. Give it a 10 year span as professionals, and then compare.

Those 4 were the same era, the previous generation. The point is, people like to downplay how good some of those players were and overrate the up and comers. It seems a good amount thinks it's a no brainers that these guys will become a decent amount better than the previous guys, and I'm saying it would be a successful, if they just matched their level.

I'm not comparing them after a full career, that's not the point.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Those 4 were the same era, the previous generation. The point is, people like to downplay how good some of those players were and overrate the up and comers. It seems a good amount thinks it's a no brainers that these guys will become a decent amount better than the previous guys, and I'm saying it would be a successful, if they just matched their level.

I'm not comparing them after a full career, that's not the point.

Donovan is eight years older than Altidore. They are from different eras. If you want to use a different word than era, be my guest, but the point stands. It would be like comparing Pulisic to some 12 year old kid. There's just no way to get a good idea of how good this generation will be yet. Enough years have not passed, but if you want to make an early prediction, you should be predicting that we are getting better. Pulisic, McKennie, Adams and all these names that are widely talked about come from a 4-5 year group. If we put together 3 different generations of that into a National Team, we'll be a lot better, but it's impossible to know yet because no one knows how non-professionals will pan out.

As for underrating previous eras, no one is underrating them, except outsiders. They were underrated in that they didn't get the chances they earned in Europe to the same degree from players other countries got, but US fans didn't underrate them, and by and large, there were only a few of these players. We had a team of 8 or 9 players who could play against good teams. We had little depth. We had a lot of liabilities that were getting big minutes.

 

[bleedblue1223]

I'm not predicting what these players will become, just putting into perspective that we really aren't that better now than we were before. If you take the players that legitimately have good potential, potential to be productive starters on above average teams in Europe, we are left with about the same amount than the previous US teams. Our issues still come down to how effective the the guys after them are. In previous teams they had high work-rates, and we could grind out wins through set-pieces, counters, defense and other "ugly" style tactics. Now, those caliber players are trying to win with their talent, and it just fails.

Then people want to believe that Pulisic is destined to be way better than Donovan or Dempsey were. He really hasn't shown that he can dominate in terms of production and carry a bad team to good results. I still think he will end up as the best American, but we still need to see him be productive against good teams. Being at Chelsea will be a good test.

We are in a period of a constant US Soccer hype train. People thought Julian Green was going to be the next big thing. We do the same thing with guys like Sargent before they prove anything. We see any young American on a decent Euro club and assume they are going to be the next guy and will automatically be better than what came before.

 

[Basement Cat]

You must obviously be a Red Bull fan. I do forget about him but I don't mean it out of disrespect. I just havent seen or heard much about him to make an opinion honestly. Glad to hear that he's doing well though.

You don't need to be a Red Bulls fan to be super high on Tyler Adams. He was one of RBL's best players once he settled in last season.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I'm not predicting what these players will become, just putting into perspective that we really aren't that better now than we were before. If you take the players that legitimately have good potential, potential to be productive starters on above average teams in Europe, we are left with about the same amount than the previous US teams. Our issues still come down to how effective the the guys after them are. In previous teams they had high work-rates, and we could grind out wins through set-pieces, counters, defense and other "ugly" style tactics. Now, those caliber players are trying to win with their talent, and it just fails.

Then people want to believe that Pulisic is destined to be way better than Donovan or Dempsey were. He really hasn't shown that he can dominate in terms of production and carry a bad team to good results. I still think he will end up as the best American, but we still need to see him be productive against good teams. Being at Chelsea will be a good test.

We are in a period of a constant US Soccer hype train. People thought Julian Green was going to be the next big thing. We do the same thing with guys like Sargent before they prove anything. We see any young American on a decent Euro club and assume they are going to be the next guy and will automatically be better than what came before.

I think we mostly agree. I think one can admit that the current National Team isn't that good because the main players on the National Team are 20 year olds and we still have a number of bad players, and also admit that we never had this many young players who were this good at 20 years old. Are this generation's players going to take up the top 5-10 spots on the all time list of American players? I don't know. I think that's besides the point. I'm not trying to criticize Donovan or Dempsey. I don't it's important to make these comparisons.

If we can put a team of 11 Donovan or Dempsey's on the field with better back ups than before, we'll be a lot better than previous American teams. No one's said that our NT is yet better in the results it's getting, but I think most can see that improvement is coming for the NT with the young players that are starting to be produced. They are demonstrably more of them and the ones that go into the NT are demonstrably better on average than the ones before them. Better players almost always equals better results.

 

[bleedblue1223]

I think we mostly agree. I think one can admit that the current National Team isn't that good because the main players on the National Team are 20 year olds and we still have a number of bad players, and also admit that we never had this many young players who were this good at 20 years old. Are this generation's players going to take up the top 5-10 spots on the all time list of American players? I don't know. I think that's besides the point. I'm not trying to criticize Donovan or Dempsey. I don't it's important to make these comparisons.

If we can put a team of 11 Donovan or Dempsey's on the field with better back ups than before, we'll be a lot better than previous American teams. No one's said that our NT is yet better in the results it's getting, but I think most can see that improvement is coming for the NT with the young players that are starting to be produced. They are demonstrably more of them and the ones that go into the NT are demonstrably better on average than the ones before them. Better players almost always equals better results.

Yeah, we probably do, most fans probably do. It's more so the media having to name some new kid the next big thing or acting like our development system is significantly improved or thinking we can actually compete with top nations in the near future. That sets unrealistic expectations for the casual followers in both mainstream sports media and fans.

 

[John Price]

https://www.espn.com/soccer/united-...hing-but-even-if-hes-nothes-proof-of-progress

Thanks. It seems like a pretty good read. Very informative

Ajax were then drawn into a Champions League group with two other Americans: Chelsea's Christian Pulisic, and Lille's Timothy Weah. Another, Tyler Adams, will also participate in the competition with RB Leipzig. Not one of those players is old enough to buy a beer in the States yet, and they represent a growing trend within U.S. Soccer: There are more Americans playing in professional academies than ever before.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Thanks. It seems like a pretty good read. Very informative

Those 3 at least we developed in US infrastructure, but sort of misleading because they played little to no part of their current club getting to Champions League. It's still progress that we have players in the competition, but it's painting too rosey of a picture.

 

[YNWA14]

From what I've been told, his quote to the media isn't the truth.

New information:

Van de Looi tells in an interview he contacted Dest to have a talk about his perspectives with Young Orange. Due to the tight schedule of this and last week a meeting couldnot take place, but it should be before october 12th

So they haven't actually discussed it, but he's contacted Dest and will have a meeting to discuss it before October 12th. Should be interesting.

 

[Vip]

Big game (friendly) tonight against Mexico.

 

[kingsboy11]

Dest starting

 

[Vip]

So that means he's stuck with USA right? Or is there a one-time switch or something.. I can't remember.

 

[John Price]

 

[Vip]

Just heard on the broadcast he can still choose Netherlands after playing in this match.

 

[Vip]

Dest singing along with the national anthem. Good to see.

 

[Vip]

Dest just got nutmegged and it led to a goal by Mexico.

 

[kingsboy11]

defending certainly isn't his strong suit, but it was incredibly poor marking. How do you not cover their leading goal scorer in their federation's history?

 

[Gecklund]

US looks bad. Only player that looks somewhat good is Pulisic.

 

[kingsboy11]

It seems like Berhalter's system is when they win possession is to continue passing it back when someone looks at them and go all the way back to Steffen and then turn it over. Rinse and repeat.

 

[HajdukSplit]

I know its early days but Boyd is not that impressive imo and he hasn't exactly gotten off to a good start at Besiktas either

 

[sabremike]

Just remember: USSF could've offered the job to a guy murdering everyone in his path in the Austrian Bundesliga right now but went with Berhalter. I'm going to laugh my ass off when he crashes out of the CONCACAF League by losing to Canada. But by all means let's keep hiring a bunch of ham N eggers and not bother getting a world class coach.

 

[ecemleafs]

the tactics are horrendous. the obsession with playing out of the back is a disease. if the other team is going to high press and try to compress the game than the space is over the top of their defense. why are we putting the ball at the feet of our worst player with the ball at his feet (the goalie) and trying to play one twos inside of our own 18.

the most common play has been long passing the ball to steffan who passes it either sideways or backwards to zimmermann. zimmermann has no options other than to try to get it to boyd or zardes or a short pass to a CM who if he receives the pass is facing his own goal at the top of the 18 with no options or mexico picks the pass off. i just find it bizarre that the way managers (gregg) think to break a high aggressive press is to put yourself under immense pressure trying short passing 1/2s with the players who are the worst on the pitch with the ball at their feet.

why are zardes and boyd never running into space on the flanks trying to push the mexican defenders deeper and providing an out to beat the press? you do that successfully and the mexican defenders have to drop deeper and creates a large gap between mexicos defense and attack unless mexicos press drops off to narrow the distance between defense and attack.

its like gregg thinks this is fifa and hes pep's barcelona where every pass no matter what the pressure is perfect and u can tic tac toe from goal to striker and score.

 

[ecemleafs]

Just remember: USSF could've offered the job to a guy murdering everyone in his path in the Austrian Bundesliga right now but went with Berhalter. I'm going to laugh my ass off when he crashes out of the CONCACAF League by losing to Canada. But by all means let's keep hiring a bunch of ham N eggers and not bother getting a world class coach.

eventually i hope marsch manages the usa. he'd probably have been my number 1 choice before gregg was hired, but it might be better for USA coaching if he becomes a success in the european club game at a high level.