Confirmed with Link: Travis Sanheim signs for 2 years, $3.25 million annually

deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
49,215
21,617
PK's defense has slipped and may slip further if his skating doesn't bounce back.
Braun is an excellent defender, a black hole offensively but would be paired with someone like Sanheim or Ghost.
Niskanen is somewhere in between, I think he'll bounce back to some extent with less usage and time to rest this summer.
 

mja

Everything was beautiful, and nothing hurt
Jan 7, 2005
12,637
29,066
Lucy the Elephant's Belly
PK's defense has slipped and may slip further if his skating doesn't bounce back.
Braun is an excellent defender, a black hole offensively but would be paired with someone like Sanheim or Ghost.
Niskanen is somewhere in between, I think he'll bounce back to some extent with less usage and time to rest this summer.

Weird, I just asked you to quantify this and you seem unable to support your assertions with any statistics. Why is that?

Again, I'm not so hot at the advanced metrics but it seems like PK grades out really well compared to Niskanen & Braun. Could you kindly point to the stats that show he's not as good defensively as those two players?
 

deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
49,215
21,617
xGA/60:
last three seasons:
Subban: -.083, .053, .081
Niskanen: -.004, .076, -.072
Braun: -.281, -.004, -.165
 

mja

Everything was beautiful, and nothing hurt
Jan 7, 2005
12,637
29,066
Lucy the Elephant's Belly
xGA/60:
last three seasons:
Subban: -.083, .053, .081
Niskanen: -.004, .076, -.072
Braun: -.281, -.004, -.165

Ok, now what are those numbers telling me?, because again I'm not so good with the advanced stats. It seems like PK is grading out in the middle between Braun & Niskanen?
 

deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
49,215
21,617
PK has steadily deteriorated, minus is good, plus is bad.
Niskanen bounced back last year, but is more toward the middle of the pack.
Braun is excellent defensively.

Now some of this has to do with role, if you play a big offensive role, you'll be on the ice for more scoring chances against your team.
But a top defender will also be on the ice against the best lines, which will hurt his numbers.
Which is why 3rd pair defenders often have "inflated" advanced metrics, we saw that with Sanheim and his move to the 1st pair.
 
  • Like
Reactions: hatcher

mja

Everything was beautiful, and nothing hurt
Jan 7, 2005
12,637
29,066
Lucy the Elephant's Belly
PK has steadily deteriorated, minus is good, plus is bad.
Niskanen bounced back last year, but is more toward the middle of the pack.
Braun is excellent defensively.

Now some of this has to do with role, if you play a big offensive role, you'll be on the ice for more scoring chances against your team.
But a top defender will also be on the ice against the best lines, which will hurt his numbers.
Which is why 3rd pair defenders often have "inflated" advanced metrics, we saw that with Sanheim and his move to the 1st pair.

Ok, so then you're saying we can't use these numbers as the basis for an apples to apples comparison? What about other defensive metrics? How do these guys grade out there? Again, most of this is greek to me, but Subban seems to have a big edge on Corsi & Fenwick, where Braun decidedly doesn't look so hot.
 

deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
49,215
21,617
We can compare these numbers, because all three played 20+ minutes in the top four, so they faced similar offensive players.
Corsi isn't a defensive metric, it's more of an offensive metric, you'd have to break out Corsi against.

Subban's value is primarily on offense and the PP, the area where we need the least help on defense.
Braun value is almost totally on defense, all you want him to do is get the puck out of the D-zone crisply.
Niskanen is in between these two.

If you could guarantee me "prime" Subban I'd make that trade in a heartbeat.
But all signs point to a guy starting to break down, my suspicion is you might get one good year out of three, and by year three at $9M he could be unmovable.
 

Curufinwe

Registered User
Feb 28, 2013
55,735
42,731
Great job by Hak cutting $1.5m off his AAV by refusing to play him above the third pairing for a season and a third.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BernieParent

CapnZin

Registered User
Jul 20, 2017
4,665
6,204
Sweden
xGA/60:
last three seasons:
Subban: -.083, .053, .081
Niskanen: -.004, .076, -.072
Braun: -.281, -.004, -.165

Ok, now what are those numbers telling me?, because again I'm not so good with the advanced stats. It seems like PK is grading out in the middle between Braun & Niskanen?

PK has steadily deteriorated, minus is good, plus is bad.
Niskanen bounced back last year, but is more toward the middle of the pack.
Braun is excellent defensively.

Now some of this has to do with role, if you play a big offensive role, you'll be on the ice for more scoring chances against your team.
But a top defender will also be on the ice against the best lines, which will hurt his numbers.
Which is why 3rd pair defenders often have "inflated" advanced metrics, we saw that with Sanheim and his move to the 1st pair.
Be careful about comparisons with these metrics. While the use of them is correct, the analysis is technically wrong. This is due to not understanding the methodology behind the statistics.

From the way you wrote, @deadhead , it seems like you’re looking at the marginal gradient- ie; how the player differs from the margin.

Re: “...,we saw that with Sanheim and his move to the 1st pair”
Re: “Niskanen bounced back... toward the middle of the pack

Those 2 remarks you made cannot be “true”, when using statistical comparisons- mainly because you’re looking for the aggregate stat and then measuring after deriving the average.

To find the measure you need a good least square measurement, which should obviously be the Best Linear Unbiased Estimator (BLUE). Since the data for this type of analysis needs to be unbiased, uncorrelated, and of equal variance- you can’t make those comparisons without further analysis.
Time-series data doesn’t work that way since it is serially correlated and the variance is determined through specific time periods (or regimes).

Serially Correlated: (TOI/60)
Regime Variane: (ATOI- Shift)

You would have to model using every stat, between the aforementioned players, on every second of their shift and then model for exact TOI differences. The error doing it your way makes the analysis “non trustworthy”.
EDIT: Even after doing this, the variance would not be “stationary”; or equal throughout.
————————
Not trying to be that person and get you on technicalities, but stats don’t tell every story- especially being told that way.
 
Last edited:

deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
49,215
21,617
It's far worse than that, the hidden flaw in every regression is left out variable error (LOVE).

Unless it's a controlled experiment where you can measure and control every variable, you actually are only using those variables for which you have measurements (and you hope those are unbiased), and don't know the "unknown unknowns" that might be determining the outcome - at best you have imperfect proxies for the true variables.

Which is why every statistical test is essentially flawed
Or why I put as much stock on robustness as significant tests.

Or as Box said: "All models are wrong, some models are useful."
 

prototypical4thliner

Registered User
Jan 12, 2017
4,005
5,994
Something like...

Giroux-Couturier-Konecny
JVR-Hayes-Voracek
Lindblom-Patrick-Frost
Raffl-Laughton-Pitlick

Provorov-Niskanen
Sanheim-Braun
Gostisbehere-Myers

Hart
Elliott
It’s a playoff roster one would think. And for the forwards, the mantra we had was a forth of raffl—Laughton—Hartman was going to mean we had legit depth in the top nine. So it’s pitlick now, but we look to be there.

I’ll give the d a month into the season before I start whining about things.
 

Striiker

Earthquake Survivor
Jun 2, 2013
89,661
155,744
Pennsylvania
It’s a playoff roster one would think. And for the forwards, the mantra we had was a forth of raffl—Laughton—Hartman was going to mean we had legit depth in the top nine. So it’s pitlick now, but we look to be there.

I’ll give the d a month into the season before I start whining about things.
On paper it's easily a playoff roster. Great vets, high potential youth, good depth, and potentially very good goaltending.

It'll just depend on how the coaching does, individual performances, injuries, and stuff like that.
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad