Confirmed with Link: Travis Sanheim signs for 2 years, $3.25 million annually

[Tripod]

Sure, we still have our top players, but personally I thought now was the time to go out and add to the top of the core with a real impact player. We didn't do that. Instead, we went Hayes, Braun, & Niskanen.

We still have all of our top prospects, for which I'm thankful, but we added 2 veteran dmen, both of whom are on the decline, who are going to take away playing time from our young defensemen, and I question whether it's going to be a net benefit in the end. I'd also had rather spent that money / assets on PK, but then my head is clearly in a different place than most others.

We added a 2C on a contract I'm not ok with.

We didn't add a back-up goalie. We simply re-signed Elliott. I'm "okay" with that, and frankly think it makes more sense than throwing 3M AAV at Talbot for him to stay here, but that feeds into the pattern of questionable moves vis-a-vis the Talbot / Stolarz swap.

We added vet RH D, but was anyone really clamoring for Niskanen or Braun?

Once again, the Hartman deal feeds into the patters of questionable moves. It would have been better for Fletch to just take straight picks for Simmer rather than seek a roster player that we just dumped off to an oft-injured soon-to-be UFA 4th liner.

AV was not my first choice. I want Therrien nowhere near the team. Yeo just got humiliated.

What impact player were we getting? And at what cost?

As for the D....I really don't think people realize how having such a young D has it's limits. We NEEDED this kind of short term add. This type of add actually should have happened a few years ago. The fact that AMac was the rookie "whisperer" for Ghost, then Provy is a joke. Hextall shit the bed with that.

As for Simmer....I agree that's how it ended up. But again, Hextall also f***ed that up when the return 1 year earlier would have been a 1st+ more. But hey, we still have that 4th rounder to hold out hope for.

AV will be our best coach in 6 years and has been to the SC 2 times with 2 different teams.

In the end, you don't like the moves. And that's fine. But there are certainly the flipside where these moves were very good ones and needed for our team. The proof will be how the team performs on the ice.

 

[deadhead]

When you look at net impact since he took over, Fletcher did very well.

The only long-term cap hit is Hayes, and I think it's generally agreed he was overpaid by $1M a year and 1 year, but that's pretty normal for UFAs, who were you going to get at a discount? Duchene will probably cost $10-11M.

We started with a 1st, a 2nd rd pick, and (2) 3rd rd picks, came out of the draft with York and Brink and a 3rd rd pick. I'd say that's a wash.

We added two veteran RHDs which the coach wanted, with cap hits that are gone in two years when the bridge deal for Sanheim expires. They don't have to be stars, just stabilizing influences on a defense with Provorov, Sanheim, Myers, Morin. It cost us Gudas, a 3rd pair D-man and some picks which we replaced.

We turned a washed up Simmonds into Pitlick and a 2020 4th, replacing the 2020 3rd we gave up.
We kept Raffl at an affordable salary. We kept Elliott as a bridge to Sandstrom and Lyon as insurance.

The only hole is 3RW, and that can be filled by adding Frost and moving Lindblom/Giroux to RW.
We lost zero prospects.

No, not as exciting as trading 2 prospects and a high draft pick for a "name" player.
That was the fear of many of us, that pressure on Fletcher would result in rash moves.
But this team is much deeper and the only "future" asset used was #41, replaced in a draft day deal.

 

[mja]

What impact player were we getting? And at what cost?

As for the D....I really don't think people realize how having such a young D has it's limits. We NEEDED this kind of short term add. This type of add actually should have happened a few years ago. The fact that AMac was the rookie "whisperer" for Ghost, then Provy is a joke. Hextall **** the bed with that.

As for Simmer....I agree that's how it ended up. But again, Hextall also ****ed that up when the return 1 year earlier would have been a 1st+ more. But hey, we still have that 4th rounder to hold out hope for.

AV will be our best coach in 6 years and has been to the SC 2 times with 2 different teams.

In the end, you don't like the moves. And that's fine. But there are certainly the flipside where these moves were very good ones and needed for our team. The proof will be how the team performs on the ice.

I'd have been all in on Panarin. I also would have much rather gone after PK than Niskanen & Braun, but what do I know. I don't object to bringing in a veteran hand to steady the D, I object to the specific veterans.

All of the moves might work out to varying degrees. We should absolutely be a better team in the short term with Hayes. Niskanen might bounce back. Braun may not be the rotting corpse that some of his stats suggest. AV might be a much better coach than he was at the end of his Rangers tenure when he was near Hakstolian levels of bad. It doesn't change the fact that each move is near the opposite of what I think we should be doing. I'm going to continue speaking my piece and if Fletch makes a move I like, I'll say it, just like I didn't have any complaints whatsoever about his draft.

 

[Ruck Over]

... I didn't have any complaints whatsoever about his draft.

Fletch should've drafted Oleg Zaitsev, pref around the 4th round or earlier in order to protect my fake GM-draft ranking. He screwed the pooch and is dead to me now.

AV better keep that sweet scruffy stubbly beard. Because if he shows up game 1 clean shaven, he's a dead man walking in my eyes.

 

[Curufinwe]

And Hayes is the only long term move. Braun and Niskanen are stop gaps till the ED when a good player will be lost to Seattle and there will be a reset.

 

[deadhead]

Panarin wasn't coming here. Nor was Duchene or EK. That was a non starter.
We could have traded for Subban, 3x9 left on his deal.

Problem is which Subban do you get? He hasn't been very good the last two seasons. Below average defensively both years, and replacement level overall last season. That Subban isn't much better than Braun.

Could have traded 2020 1st plus other assets for J.T. Miller, who is LH, and a mediocre defender.

The realistic options were limited, the fantasy options were unbounded.

 

[Qyburn]

Problem is which Subban do you get? He hasn't been very good the last two seasons. Below average defensively both years, and replacement level overall last season. That Subban isn't much better than Braun.

His skating's not coming back, and with current trends, that's pretty much death. There's no way he will ever again be worth even 40% of his salary. If your team has a PP need you could do worse, but you could easily do better.

 

[Tripod]

I'd have been all in on Panarin. I also would have much rather gone after PK than Niskanen & Braun, but what do I know. I don't object to bringing in a veteran hand to steady the D, I object to the specific veterans.

All of the moves might work out to varying degrees. We should absolutely be a better team in the short term with Hayes. Niskanen might bounce back. Braun may not be the rotting corpse that some of his stats suggest. AV might be a much better coach than he was at the end of his Rangers tenure when he was near Hakstolian levels of bad. It doesn't change the fact that each move is near the opposite of what I think we should be doing. I'm going to continue speaking my piece and if Fletch makes a move I like, I'll say it, just like I didn't have any complaints whatsoever about his draft.

Oh...Panarin. How easy to just go get the top F UFA.

Subban.....it was clear Fletch wanted to add guys known for their defense. They certainly did not want a big personality who needs PP time to get the most out of him.

Sorry that these moves did not get your approval. Maybe the next one will. Personally, I think these moves are fine with the Hayes deal being too long and too much.....but I said that before he signed that it would likely be the case. That's usually the "cost" of getting someone "free".

 

[lancer247]

I love how Niskanen is as a bad move because he had a bad year but PK who had a worse year at $9MM for 3 yrs was a better move.

Who knows how these moves will work out but there aren’t moves that are so off the wall crazy that you can say for sure off the bat Fletch f’d up.

I was pissed at passing on caulfield but felt better after picking up Brink.

The hand ringing over moves in June and labeling them as bad moves, terrifying trends, etc is ridiculous. As has been said repeatedly. Aside from Hayes all the new contracts ends coincide with when the young players should be taking over.

 

[Rebels57]

I love how Niskanen is as a bad move because he had a bad year but PK who had a worse year at $9MM for 3 yrs was a better move.

Who knows how these moves will work out but there aren’t moves that are so off the wall crazy that you can say for sure off the bat Fletch f’d up.

I was pissed at passing on caulfield but felt better after picking up Brink.

The hand ringing over moves in June and labeling them as bad moves, terrifying trends, etc is ridiculous. As has been said repeatedly. Aside from Hayes all the new contracts ends coincide with when the young players should be taking over.

Whatever feeds the need to bitch and moan.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

I would say Subban’s standard of play in a down year was still higher than Niskanen’s by a fair margin.

But it doesn’t really matter. As the Flyers likely never were acquiring Subban even if they had the room with Therrien here anyway.

 

[mja]

Oh...Panarin. How easy to just go get the top F UFA.

Subban.....it was clear Fletch wanted to add guys known for their defense. They certainly did not want a big personality who needs PP time to get the most out of him.

Sorry that these moves did not get your approval. Maybe the next one will. Personally, I think these moves are fine with the Hayes deal being too long and too much.....but I said that before he signed that it would likely be the case. That's usually the "cost" of getting someone "free".

*sigh*

That was my way of agreeing to disagree. I apologize for not having an opinion on a discussion forum that aligns neatly with yours.

It isn't just about Panarin, or Subban. It's about approach. For the first time since the beginning of the cap era, we actually had real cap space to play with, and we used it on...Hayes, Niskanen, & Braun? Really? And we gave Hayes a NMC to boot!

I love how Niskanen is as a bad move because he had a bad year but PK who had a worse year at $9MM for 3 yrs was a better move.

Who knows how these moves will work out but there aren’t moves that are so off the wall crazy that you can say for sure off the bat Fletch f’d up.

I was pissed at passing on caulfield but felt better after picking up Brink.

The hand ringing over moves in June and labeling them as bad moves, terrifying trends, etc is ridiculous. As has been said repeatedly. Aside from Hayes all the new contracts ends coincide with when the young players should be taking over.

I'd much rather take a flyer on the guy who was a Norris finalist a mere season ago, for essentially the same cap space and asset cost as Niskanen & Braun. I'm flabbergasted that others wouldn't. He'd also potentially be a perfect ED candidate for Seattle: star player with awards, big personality, and his 9M AAV helps them reach the cap floor but his pending UFA status would give them flexibility to re-up or go in a different direction.

I was totally fine with drafting York instead of Caufield, just to show you that I'm not just looking to bitch and moan.

While none of the moves are catastrophically bad, they're all questionable, and taken as a whole I hate the trend. That Niskanen & Braun's contracts are expiring soon is one small bit of relief. Now, if they re-up Braun at the expense of younger talent I might just have an aneurysm.

Whatever feeds the need to ***** and moan.

Weren't you literally just days ago calling for Fletch's job because he drafted York instead of Caufield.

I would say Subban’s standard of play in a down year was still higher than Niskanen’s by a fair margin.

But it doesn’t really matter. As the Flyers likely never were acquiring Subban even if they had the room with Therrien here anyway.

Well, I didn't want to hire Therrien either.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Well, I didn't want to hire Therrien either.

I should have probably prefaced that. I didn’t like it either & think that in 2019 nobody should be hiring that guy. But ultimately the damage is done is more so what I am saying. It’s tough to really get disappointed about something that you knew or should have known was very unlikely because of that.

No different than the Flyers current state in general. It’s tough to really get that mad about them being mediocre at this point because I’m so accustomed to it.

 

[baudib1]

Subban is a much higher upside move than anything Fletcher has done. Keeping Gudas and dealing for Subban for basically less than what you got Niskanen and Braun would have made the team better than it is now, and it's really hard to argue against it.

 

[baudib1]

Getting Subban instead of Niskanen/Braun doesn't impact any long-term plans.

 

[Tripod]

Subban is a much higher upside move than anything Fletcher has done. Keeping Gudas and dealing for Subban for basically less than what you got Niskanen and Braun would have made the team better than it is now, and it's really hard to argue against it.

That math doesn't add up.

Keep Gudas....that means it's just Braun...so a 2nd and a 3rd. How is that more than what NJ paid for Subban...which was their 2nd best D prospect, a RH roster Dman, and 2 2nds?

 

[baudib1]

Their "best defensive prospect" in the trade is a 24-year-old AHLer. The equivalent of Mark Friedman. Toss in Hagg and that package exceeds theirs.

 

[Tripod]

Their "best defensive prospect" in the trade is a 24-year-old AHLer. The equivalent of Mark Friedman. Toss in Hagg and that package exceeds theirs.

The prospects is Davies....22 year old PPG college Dman

 

[baudib1]

The prospects is Davies....22 year old PPG college Dman

Which still isn't the trade equivalent of Hagg.

Hell, I'd be happy to throw in Gudas and 2 2nd rounders instead of retaining salary for Braun and Niskanen.

 

[lancer247]

*sigh*

That was my way of agreeing to disagree. I apologize for not having an opinion on a discussion forum that aligns neatly with yours.

It isn't just about Panarin, or Subban. It's about approach. For the first time since the beginning of the cap era, we actually had real cap space to play with, and we used it on...Hayes, Niskanen, & Braun? Really? And we gave Hayes a NMC to boot!



I'd much rather take a flyer on the guy who was a Norris finalist a mere season ago, for essentially the same cap space and asset cost as Niskanen & Braun. I'm flabbergasted that others wouldn't. He'd also potentially be a perfect ED candidate for Seattle: star player with awards, big personality, and his 9M AAV helps them reach the cap floor but his pending UFA status would give them flexibility to re-up or go in a different direction.

I was totally fine with drafting York instead of Caufield, just to show you that I'm not just looking to ***** and moan.

While none of the moves are catastrophically bad, they're all questionable, and taken as a whole I hate the trend. That Niskanen & Braun's contracts are expiring soon is one small bit of relief. Now, if they re-up Braun at the expense of younger talent I might just have an aneurysm.



Weren't you literally just days ago calling for Fletch's job because he drafted York instead of Caufield.



Well, I didn't want to hire Therrien either.

Relax. No one is saying you have to agree with them. You can hate every move. That’s the point of the forum to exchange ideas. You determine because you don’t like a deal it’s because Fletcher is inept while we are still in June. People who like them or just are taking a wait and see POV are not polishing his turds.

Your views may all be right in the long run but none of the moves are so off the wall that they are obvious mistakes in June. And if they are the only one that is long term and doesn’t coincide with the prospects trajectory.

I don’t want to beat a dead horse. I appreciate your POV and it’s going to be a long summer before we see how things work out.

 

[deadhead]

A lot of fans have the same attitude as Scott, DO SOMETHING BIG, it may be stupid, but I can get excited for a month before I realize it was stupid.

 

[Curufinwe]

Getting Subban instead of Niskanen/Braun doesn't impact any long-term plans.

Are you really getting value for Subban at $9m without him being on the top PP unit?

Subban, much more than Braun or Niskanen, could have affected their long term plan for Ghost.

Subban is a much higher upside move than anything Fletcher has done. Keeping Gudas and dealing for Subban for basically less than what you got Niskanen and Braun would have made the team better than it is now, and it's really hard to argue against it.

It's not hard to argue against that because then you don't have Hayes, and have Patrick as the 2C. Subban's cap hit is $3m more than Niskanen's.

Or you're trading Ghost for picks to free up cap room and make room in the lineup for PK.

PP TOI/GP in 18-19
Ghost 3:29
Subban 2:35
Niskanen 0:35
Braun 0:07

 

[mja]

Are you really getting value for Subban at $9m without him being on the top PP unit?

Subban, much more than Braun or Niskanen, could have affected their long term plan for Ghost.

It's not hard to argue against that because then you don't have Hayes, and have Patrick as the 2C. Subban's cap hit is $3m more than Niskanen's.

That would have been a feature, not a bug. Just kidding. You could still easily have had both Hayes & Subban. It's really no different than Niskanen & Braun, if you're moving Gudas in the potential deal for PK. 5.75 + 3.8 + 1.005 (retention on Gudas) = 10.555 vs. 10.15 = 9 + Hagg's 1.15 that's presumably on the move but might not be if we acquired Subban instead.

Also, PK could have slotted into Jake's spot on PP1 quite nicely.

 

[deadhead]

Subban is $9M for THREE years, not one, Braun is off the books next year, Niskanen in two years, then the ED.
And Subban defensively is much worse than Niskanen or Braun, he brings offense, but we have four young offensively talented defensemen.

 

[mja]

Subban is $9M for THREE years, not one, Braun is off the books next year, Niskanen in two years, then the ED.
And Subban defensively is much worse than Niskanen or Braun, he brings offense, but we have four young offensively talented defensemen.

How much worse would you say? Can you quantify that for me? I'm not great with the advanced stats but PK seems to grade out pretty well there last year over Niskanen & Braun.