Trade Returns - Stone/Duchene/Dzingel

[Gil Gunderson]

If the team is a top team the fans come out. If it isn’t they don’t. Welcome to pro sports. That isn’t blaming anyone, if the market was 3x the size it wouldn’t be an issue. Like I said it’s not a “blame” the consumer, it just is. Without the fans there isn’t money to go around. It is fairly normal and why the worst teams draft first, it’s an issue as old as sports.
I am not sure why the concept is so hard to follow, the team can’t be first every year forever, sooner or later it happens to every team that isn’t a huge market.

The fanbase was fully on board with the 2011 rebuild.

If you can't sell a winning team, you can sell hope. Nobody is hopeful with Melnyk running the show anymore.

 

[supsens]

The fanbase was fully on board with the 2011 rebuild.

If you can't sell a winning team, you can sell hope. Nobody is hopeful with Melnyk running the show anymore.

When they were trading prospects for guys like Ryan? I said it at the time it wasn’t a real rebuild and it was bound to turn the team into long term meh. And it did. This time they will do it right I hope.

 

[Gil Gunderson]

When they were trading prospects for guys like Ryan? I said it at the time it wasn’t a real rebuild and it was bound to turn the team into long term meh. And it did. This time they will do it right I hope.

No, in 2011. They ended up fumbling the ball, but fans were into the idea when it started.

And what makes you think they won't trade these young prospects when their contracts are up this time?

 

[topshelf15]

Pretty sick of the vultures citing rental value,while having plans to sign any of our players,after they give us rental value....I hope PD puts some stiff conditionals,to weed out some of these teams

 

[supsens]

No, in 2011. They ended up fumbling the ball, but fans were into the idea when it started.

And what makes you think they won't trade these young prospects when they're contracts are up this time?

Because the Duchene trade was a hard lesson that they should be able to learn from. And hopefully they have no money locked up long term in older players...like 34 year old Duchene

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

When they were trading prospects for guys like Ryan? I said it at the time it wasn’t a real rebuild and it was bound to turn the team into long term meh. And it did. This time they will do it right I hope.

I think the Ryan deal was a reaction to lose Alfie. They had to show the fans something.

I think karlsson was thr main reason they might have stunted the rebuild. Kinda fooled everyone into thinking they were better than they were.

 

[L'Aveuglette]

TSN1200 panel saying we fans would be satisfied if we kept only one of the big UFAs around.

Looks like we're being successfully gaslighted into thinking not keeping both Stone and Duchene is the only satisfying scenario.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

TSN1200 panel saying we fans would be satisfied if we kept only one of the big UFAs around.

Looks like we're being successfully gaslighted into thinking not keeping both Stone and Duchene is the only satisfying scenario.

or maybe they are just guessing ... I think most of the guys on there are just as perplexed as most of us fans on how this team is being run

 

[L'Aveuglette]

or maybe they are just guessing ... I think most of the guys on there are just as perplexed as most of us fans on how this team is being run

It's just a statement as to how the fanbase as a whole has been so beat down into submission that only keeping one UFA would be "satisfying", when in fact it should be unacceptable. Whether they are part of the propaganda machine or not is not really the issue.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

It's just a statement as to how the fanbase as a whole has been so beat down into submission that only keeping one UFA would be "satisfying", when in fact it should be unacceptable. Whether they are part of the propaganda machine or not is not really the issue.

Definitely feel we have been beaten down. No faith in management .. Hope is something that has disappeared for most. Definitely dark times.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

If the team is a top team the fans come out. If it isn’t they don’t. Welcome to pro sports. That isn’t blaming anyone, if the market was 3x the size it wouldn’t be an issue. Like I said it’s not a “blame” the consumer, it just is. Without the fans there isn’t money to go around. It is fairly normal and why the worst teams draft first, it’s an issue as old as sports.
I am not sure why the concept is so hard to follow, the team can’t be first every year forever, sooner or later it happens to every team that isn’t a huge market.

It's referenced because that was the exact tactic Melnyk decided was the right course of action at his Outdoor game tantrum where he put all the blame on the fans. We should have listened more clearly, because he followed through on his threats that day of slashing everything.

When they were trading prospects for guys like Ryan? I said it at the time it wasn’t a real rebuild and it was bound to turn the team into long term meh. And it did. This time they will do it right I hope.

We were well on our way and suddenly they messed up the Alfie situation, panicked and went sideways on the rebuild. The Anderson trade sure didn't help either, but that's a double edged sword. You're right, if you're going to rebuild, do it properly and that's why this team needs to be god awful for 2-3 years to stockpile top tier assets before attempting to turn a corner.

Because the Duchene trade was a hard lesson that they should be able to learn from. And hopefully they have no money locked up long term in older players...like 34 year old Duchene

If they aren't going to fire the guy responsible for this mess, then yes, hopefully he can at least take some lessons from his numerous mistakes and start piling up quality assets, and not just quantity.

On one hand yes, good strategy. On the other hand, it's not as much of an issue for teams with flexibility that can spend close to the cap, especially as the cap and average salary keeps rising. Also, it's a bit of a cop out... we're really only going to the age factor on these guys now because we can't convince them to stay, easy to say now that they're refusing to go to the prom with us.

 

[coladin]

TSN1200 panel saying we fans would be satisfied if we kept only one of the big UFAs around.

Looks like we're being successfully gaslighted into thinking not keeping both Stone and Duchene is the only satisfying scenario.

I want Stone and Duchene. If they can’t sign even one, just burn it down. Let’s just get on with it, the longest February I can remember and it is still Valentine’s.

 

[danielpalfredsson]

I think the Ryan deal was a reaction to lose Alfie. They had to show the fans something.

I think karlsson was thr main reason they might have stunted the rebuild. Kinda fooled everyone into thinking they were better than they were.

Some of what Alfredsson said after Alfiegate makes it sound like they were ready to pull the trigger on Ryan but couldn't do it financially if they paid Alfredsson what he was asking. One of Murray's selling points to Alfredsson was that if Alfie took what the Sens were offering, there'd be money to add Ryan in a trade.

So it's possible that the trade wasn't done in response to Alfredsson leaving, but done because the budget situation was resolved by Alfredsson leaving, so the Senators then had room to add Ryan who at over 5 million was a fairly big salary at the time when the cap was under 70M.

 

[coladin]

Some of what Alfredsson said after Alfiegate makes it sound like they were ready to pull the trigger on Ryan but couldn't do it financially if they paid Alfredsson what he was asking. One of Murray's selling points to Alfredsson was that if Alfie took what the Sens were offering, there'd be money to add Ryan in a trade.

So it's possible that the trade wasn't done in response to Alfredsson leaving, but done because the budget situation was resolved by Alfredsson leaving, so the Senators then had room to add Ryan who at over 5 million was a fairly big salary at the time when the cap was under 70M.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t MacArthur the winger brought in with Alfie’s money?

 

[Do Make Say Think]

TSN1200 panel saying we fans would be satisfied if we kept only one of the big UFAs around.

Looks like we're being successfully gaslighted into thinking not keeping both Stone and Duchene is the only satisfying scenario.

This fanbase is starved for good news.

 

[danielpalfredsson]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t MacArthur the winger brought in with Alfie’s money?

No.

They brought Mac in as a result of having extra cash due to Alfredsson leaving, but Alfredsson's ask+Ryan's salary totaled more than Ryan's salary+Mac's Salary.

Alfredsson either wanted 7 million on a 1 year deal, or 12 million on a 2 year deal. The Senators were offering 1 year at 4.5 million which while more than what MacArthur signed for (3.25M), is still less than Alfredsson's 7 million.

This link is a very good document of everything that was said by both parties at the time The Malik Report - Kukla's Korner

 

[coladin]

No.

They brought Mac in as a result of having extra cash due to Alfredsson leaving, but Alfredsson's ask+Ryan's salary totaled more than Ryan's salary+Mac's Salary.

Alfredsson either wanted 7 million on a 1 year deal, or 12 million on a 2 year deal. The Senators were offering 1 year at 4.5 million which while more than what MacArthur signed for (3.25M), is still less than Alfredsson's 7 million.

This link is a very good document of everything that was said by both parties at the time The Malik Report - Kukla's Korner

That is what I said? With the money that was supposed to go to Alfie , they used it to sign MacArthur.

 

[danielpalfredsson]

That is what I said? With the money that was supposed to go to Alfie , they used it to sign MacArthur.

Oh ok, sorry I misread your post. I took it as but they added MacArthur with Alfredsson's money as meaning, signing Alfredsson at his ask wouldn't have stopped them from trading for Ryan. My bad.

 

[saskytaxi]

I want Stone and Duchene. If they can’t sign even one, just burn it down. Let’s just get on with it, the longest February I can remember and it is still Valentine’s.

Last February was way worse IMO when this gongshow was just beginning. This time around its just hilarious.

 

[coladin]

Last February was way worse IMO when this gongshow was just beginning. This time around its just hilarious.

I never had the feeling Karlsson was going to be traded in February. This is waaaay different for me, personally

 

[saskytaxi]

I never had the feeling Karlsson was going to be traded in February. This is waaaay different for me, personally

Fair enough I didn't believe it either last year I was laughing at the media for trying to make something out of nothing

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

Some of what Alfredsson said after Alfiegate makes it sound like they were ready to pull the trigger on Ryan but couldn't do it financially if they paid Alfredsson what he was asking. One of Murray's selling points to Alfredsson was that if Alfie took what the Sens were offering, there'd be money to add Ryan in a trade.

So it's possible that the trade wasn't done in response to Alfredsson leaving, but done because the budget situation was resolved by Alfredsson leaving, so the Senators then had room to add Ryan who at over 5 million was a fairly big salary at the time when the cap was under 70M.

I seem to remember reading something about Murray saying that the big hold up in the negotiation was Anaheim demanding a 1st round pick, while the Sens were offering a second. When they lost Alfie . . . Murray decided to bump up the offer.

But I could be wrong.

 

[Sweatred]

It will suck to see these guys walk ... but this is a new reality woth younger free agency. The Leafs watched JVR walk and Gardiner will prob walk this summer. The sky isn’t following in Toronto because they realllocate the money and are rising out of a rebuild. The negative attention Ottawa is getting is the typical Toronto bias.

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

It will suck to see these guys walk ... but this is a new reality woth younger free agency. The Leafs watched JVR walk and Gardiner will prob walk this summer. The sky isn’t following in Toronto because they realllocate the money and are rising out of a rebuild. The negative attention Ottawa is getting is the typical Toronto bias.

Are you comparing the importance of Gardiner to that of Stone and Duchene?

 

[bert]

The best prospect we got for a full year of Karlsson was Norris. Expect that as the high end of guys we get back.

Very different time of year though. Teams are actually competing to win these trades not like in the summer where Karlsson was controlling everything..