Confirmed with Link: [TOR/PIT] RW Kapanen, D Lindgren, LW Aberg for '20 1st(15th), LW Rodrigues, C Hallander, D Warsofsky

[hobarth]

If the offer was Kapanen and Johnson straight up for TJ Brodie, I would do it in a second 10/10 times.

Rumor has it that Johnsson and Dermott was the ask by Florida for Weegar, considering that Johnsson was probably given away for nothing, maybe, that would've been a Weegar for Dermott trade.

TO signed Brodie who's soon to be 30 to $5 mill. per year, Weegar who is 27 is signed for 2 more years at $3,25 mil. per and he's an actual righty. Weegar has better offensive stats and is more physical than Brodie. Weegar is having a very good year as is Brodie.

TO d could've been outstanding maybe:

Rielly/Weegar
Muzz/Holl
Brodie/Bogo

and that would've still left Lehtonen, Lily and Sandin for depth.

 

[ToneDog]

Boyd is playing on the 4th line, and has played 6 fewer games, and is still outproducing Haula. Actually, he has a better P/GP than Granlund too.

Neither are meaningful upgrades (arguably downgrades) on our existing options, and both cost more than the existing options they would realistically replace. Seems mostly like you're trying to overpay for name value, based on the idea that the grass is always greener. And you still won't answer where the money is actually coming from. Our contracts and cap allocation are perfectly fine.

I thought it was clear I was talking options if we had cap space, which we did not and hence why we were not in on Hoffman, Granlund, Haula, etc.

 

[The Iceman]

Rielly/Brodie
Muzz/Weegar
Bogo/Holl

 

[ICBM]

The Leafs are just not very good at developing players. That's why Kappy is gone. Traded for futures. But futures can't play now.

This trade is still better than Kadri fiasco. Young top-6 30-goal winger (wrongly used at center here) traded for Kerfoot. And people here are actually glad it happened. That's beyond delusional.

Players lost in trades. No players developed. Ageing free agents signed. We've seen this already.

Shanny's regime drafted premium talent in Marner, Mathews and Nylander. What top-6 forwards they developed besides those 3? None.

Defense is better now. Holl is playing in the top-4. Does it make him a top-4 dman? Still, he was drafted by Chicago in 2nd round. Leaf draft picks are not ready yet.

Lots of questions and few answers.

 

[I am Canadian]

The Leafs are just not very good at developing players. That's why Kappy is gone. Traded for futures. But futures can't play now.

This trade is still better than Kadri fiasco. Young top-6 30-goal winger (wrongly used at center here) traded for Kerfoot. And people here are actually glad it happened. That's beyond delusional.

Players lost in trades. No players developed. Ageing free agents signed. We've seen this already.

Shanny's regime drafted premium talent in Marner, Mathews and Nylander. What top-6 forwards they developed besides those 3? None.

Defense is better now. Holl is playing in the top-4. Does it make him a top-4 dman? Still, he was drafted by Chicago in 2nd round. Leaf draft picks are not ready yet.

Lots of questions and few answers.

How are we not good at developing players?? Kapanen is gone because we are GOOD at developing players

 

[Dekes For Days]

I thought it was clear I was talking options if we had cap space, which we did not and hence why we were not in on Hoffman, Granlund, Haula, etc.

You're suggesting the reason that we didn't sign them is because we don't have cap space because of cap mismanagement or a bad cap situation, when in actuality, we didn't sign them because we had better options already filling the roles they would fill, and we spent our money on better value players and more needed roles. Which is why you refuse to answer where this cap space would be coming from to allocate it to them.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Rumor has it that Johnsson and Dermott was the ask by Florida for Weegar, considering that Johnsson was probably given away for nothing, maybe, that would've been a Weegar for Dermott trade.

TO signed Brodie who's soon to be 30 to $5 mill. per year, Weegar who is 27 is signed for 2 more years at $3,25 mil. per and he's an actual righty. Weegar has better offensive stats and is more physical than Brodie. Weegar is having a very good year as is Brodie.

TO d could've been outstanding maybe:

Rielly/Weegar
Muzz/Holl
Brodie/Bogo

and that would've still left Lehtonen, Lily and Sandin for depth.

We can't afford that defense. Where are you getting that extra 2.5 mill in cap space? Also, is Brodie only going to play 12 minutes like Dermott is right now? We are already having issues finding Dermott the playing time he deserves on that bottom pairing. How is Weegar going to do away from Ekblad? In a lot of ways he looks the same way that Holl looks away from Muzzin, which is still good, but not nearly as good as when he is with Muzzin.

Expansion considerations are still the same. Are you going to protect Weegar or are you going to protect Holl? You just paid a big price for Weegar so that likely means you choose him over Holl right? We can lose only one of Dermott or Anderson, if Seattle even chooses one of them and we expose them.

 

[ToneDog]

You're suggesting the reason that we didn't sign them is because we don't have cap space because of cap mismanagement or a bad cap situation, when in actuality, we didn't sign them because we had better options already filling the roles they would fill, and we spent our money on better value players and more needed roles. Which is why you refuse to answer where this cap space would be coming from to allocate it to them.

Imagine we had the cap space. Please do not tell me there were no better options out there for more money than what we signed. You want us to believe Dubas signed the best UFAs for the least amount of money ?? I'm done here because there is nothing you can't defend.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

The Leafs are just not very good at developing players. That's why Kappy is gone. Traded for futures. But futures can't play now.

Kappy, Johnsson, and Brown are gone in part because they were well developed. Also have you looked at our roster? In organization developed players litter the lineup.

This trade is still better than Kadri fiasco. Young top-6 30-goal winger (wrongly used at center here) traded for Kerfoot. And people here are actually glad it happened. That's beyond delusional.

Kadri was a great centre here, he scored 30 goals playing the bloody position. The Avalanche are still using him as a centre. So either Kadri is a centre or two NHL franchises are wrong and you know better than them.

I don’t regret the act of Kadri being traded, I regret what we got back for him. If Kerfoot is moved out though in a package for a good top 6 winger who isn’t liable to get himself suspended when needed most then it’s fine.

Players lost in trades. No players developed. Ageing free agents signed. We've seen this already.

This is just demonstrably false.

Shanny's regime drafted premium talent in Marner, Mathews and Nylander. What top-6 forwards they developed besides those 3? None.

Defense is better now. Holl is playing in the top-4. Does it make him a top-4 dman? Still, he was drafted by Chicago in 2nd round. Leaf draft picks are not ready yet.

Lots of questions and few answers.

Matthews is the only real “gimme” of those three drafted players. It’s not a guarantee that a top 5 or 10 pick will develop into first liners or top pairing guys. Just look at the players drafted around where Marner and Nylander were picked, lots of guys who haven’t lived up to expectations or were developed poorly by the teams that drafted them.

Holl was let go by Chicago and signed to a minor league deal by Dubas, he’s definitely a Leafs developed player. I don’t know what that last sentence is supposed to mean, to be honest this whole post seems way off topic for this thread but I suppose people just need to vent.

 

[kevsh]

No players developed. Ageing free agents signed.

Engvall, 7th round pick, currently playing 3rd line.
Johnsson, 7th round pick, got 2 seasons from him mostly on the 3rd line.
Beyond Matthews & Marner they have Nylander, Dermott, Reilly all drafted & developed internally. Holl signed as an FA and developed by the Leafs.

Johnsson & Kap (and arguably Kadri) were traded primarily due to salary cap issues, not that they didn't work out, etc.

The aging free agents (I assume you mean Simmonds 5g in 12gp, Thornton 11p in 13gp, Spezza 15p on the 4th line. The others, Bog has been as advertised, Vesey ... not great so far but he's at least scoring now) are doing rather well this year. Brodie was an excellent signing, Campbell has been a solid backup when healthy, still have players like Robertson, Sandin, Liljegren and Amirov are still developing but all are expected to be full-time NHLers.

I'm not seeing much there to complain about.

 

[Judas Tavares]

The grass really is greener on the other side for many of you.

As soon as we trade a player, you cease to the see all of their flaws. Kapanen was invisible on a regular basis for us, and had finishing rivaled only by Mikheyev. Kap was subpar defensively 5v5 and was soft was butter outside a 10 game period last year when he was getting into fights and throwing his weight.

I like the guy and I hope he carves out a nice career in Pitt but I will take the cap space, Hallander and Amirov every single day of the week.

I mentioned this in another thread, but everyone on our team is flawed, weak, useless etc... and needs to go. And once they are gone, people want them back. It's kind of weird.

 

[nobody]

Some posters on this site are wild. Wildly stupid that is.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

The Leafs are just not very good at developing players. That's why Kappy is gone. Traded for futures. But futures can't play now.

This trade is still better than Kadri fiasco. Young top-6 30-goal winger (wrongly used at center here) traded for Kerfoot. And people here are actually glad it happened. That's beyond delusional.

Players lost in trades. No players developed. Ageing free agents signed. We've seen this already.

Shanny's regime drafted premium talent in Marner, Mathews and Nylander. What top-6 forwards they developed besides those 3? None.

Defense is better now. Holl is playing in the top-4. Does it make him a top-4 dman? Still, he was drafted by Chicago in 2nd round. Leaf draft picks are not ready yet.

Lots of questions and few answers.

I guess my first question would be who drafted and developed better than us since 2014? Maybe Tampa? Chicago somewhat?

Are we not going to count guys like Trevor Moore, Carl Grundstrom, etc. who were developed locally but then ultimately moved to get other assets?

Then I would follow that up with the fact that we don't even have Hunter in charge anymore, so our drafting philosophy has drastically changed since 2018. How many guys outside of the top 10 in 2018 and 2019 are closer to the NHL than Robertson and Sandin right now? Dubas has only had one proper, uninterrupted draft in charge as well (2018 he took over only a couple of weeks before the draft, 2020 was affected by Covid, 2021 is affected by Covid, etc.), so it is a little bit early to judge our current drafting regime when most of the guys drafted are not even 21 yet.

 

[ToneDog]

Rumor has it that Johnsson and Dermott was the ask by Florida for Weegar, considering that Johnsson was probably given away for nothing, maybe, that would've been a Weegar for Dermott trade.

TO signed Brodie who's soon to be 30 to $5 mill. per year, Weegar who is 27 is signed for 2 more years at $3,25 mil. per and he's an actual righty. Weegar has better offensive stats and is more physical than Brodie. Weegar is having a very good year as is Brodie.

TO d could've been outstanding maybe:

Rielly/Weegar
Muzz/Holl
Brodie/Bogo

and that would've still left Lehtonen, Lily and Sandin for depth.

Brodie was Dubas' boy since last year when he tried to trade for him. IMO it was either Brodie or Weegar and Dubas chose Brodie who was "free". $5m on your #3LD is had to justify on a team that is up against the cap.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Imagine we had the cap space.

That doesn't do us much good, does it? You can't just imagine cap space from nothing. Are you blaming Dubas for cap space not being infinite?

You can't throw around false claims about cap mismanagement, and then just blatantly ignore the cap when discussing alternatives. Even with the benefit of hindsight, you can't explain how your personally cherry picked UFAs are a better fit and allocation of cap than what Dubas has already done. That really says it all. Our contracts and cap situation are pretty good.

 

[Menzinger]

Spezza has as many points as Kap with only 4 extra games played.

I wish Kapanen the best, but Amirov is a great prospect and the capsize was used to help bring in a top pairing rhd, something this team has spent years looking for.

Leafs fans should still be very pleased with this deal

 

[Menzinger]

Come on, who wants "overpaid bottom-six players on longer-term contracts?". I hope you did not include AJ, Kerfoot and Kappy in that group cause Dubas never overpays. If we had cap space, off the top of my head, we could have been in on Hoffman, Hall, Duclair, Haula, Granlund, and Vatanen for a year. But I guess you prefer what Dubas did this past summer instead.

Truth is there were lots of bargains out there this summer but we could only shop in the bargain bin section due to our cap situation.

Id rather have one of the 3 10+ million dollar Leafs forwards + Thornton this season than say Hall + Haula

 

[socko]

The only thing I really wish is that we had Stamkos instead of Tavares. That would be smoking awesome.

 

[zeke]

If we had cap space, certainly Granlund, possibly Duclair and Haula for Petan, Barabanov, Vesey, Jumbo and Boyd in that order. Vatanen is more dicey as there is no room on the RS for him.

Hoffman 24gms, 15:38, 24gl/62pt pace, 44.8xgf%
Granlund 22gms, 19:29, 19gl/37pt pace, 47.0xgf%
Duclair 19gms, 15:46, 8gl/43pt pace, 64.8xgf%
Haula 23gms, 15:35, 7gl/25pt pace, 40.4xgf%

Thornton 14gms, 15:29, 18gl/64pt pace, 58.0xgf%
Simmonds 12gms, 11:03, 34gl/34pt pace, 51.0xgf%
Spezza 25gms, 10:46, 16gl/53pt pace, 54.4xgf%
Boyd 17gms, 10:09, 15gl/39pt pace, 48.9xgf%


Excellent examples of why you don't waste precious cap dollars on depth players.

 

[robertmac43]

The Leafs are just not very good at developing players. That's why Kappy is gone. Traded for futures. But futures can't play now.

Lol no, but nice try.

 

[hobarth]

We can't afford that defense. Where are you getting that extra 2.5 mill in cap space? Also, is Brodie only going to play 12 minutes like Dermott is right now? We are already having issues finding Dermott the playing time he deserves on that bottom pairing. How is Weegar going to do away from Ekblad? In a lot of ways he looks the same way that Holl looks away from Muzzin, which is still good, but not nearly as good as when he is with Muzzin.

Expansion considerations are still the same. Are you going to protect Weegar or are you going to protect Holl? You just paid a big price for Weegar so that likely means you choose him over Holl right? We can lose only one of Dermott or Anderson, if Seattle even chooses one of them and we expose them.

I think/thought Kerfoot is expendable, those 3 contracts Kerfoot, Kappy and Johnsson were overpays based on very little. Kappy one somewhat decent scoring year but he offers little outside of his goals, Johnsson the same and Kerfoot did his scoring as a replacement winger with McKinnon and on the PP with McKinnon. Bad signings for all 3.

Expansion draft, I'm having a hard time accepting that Rielly is worth considerably more than what he's making now, he's expendable(tradeable), and that would leave Muzz, Weegar and Brodie protected. As it is now Holl will be claimed. I wonder if Lehtonen can replace what Rielly provides at a fraction of Rielly's cost.

Cream rises to the top and Dermott who'll be 25 in Dec., hasn't.

I think TO needs defenders who can defend.

 

[zeke]

Not a good trade for Pens ?? Pens are in winning mode now as their window is closing. The cap space was not as important as it was for Dubas. This is a win for both teams IMO.

Win now move for team currently outside of a playoff spot might be a bad move.

 

[zeke]

I

I think TO needs defenders who can defend.

They are full of defenders that can defend.

Which is why they rank like this:

Per 60min

#5 Goals Against
#11 Expected Goals Against
#7 Shots Against
#8 Unblocked Shot Attempts Against
#7 Shot Attempts Against

 

[hobarth]

I guess my first question would be who drafted and developed better than us since 2014? Maybe Tampa? Chicago somewhat?

Are we not going to count guys like Trevor Moore, Carl Grundstrom, etc. who were developed locally but then ultimately moved to get other assets?

Then I would follow that up with the fact that we don't even have Hunter in charge anymore, so our drafting philosophy has drastically changed since 2018. How many guys outside of the top 10 in 2018 and 2019 are closer to the NHL than Robertson and Sandin right now? Dubas has only had one proper, uninterrupted draft in charge as well (2018 he took over only a couple of weeks before the draft, 2020 was affected by Covid, 2021 is affected by Covid, etc.), so it is a little bit early to judge our current drafting regime when most of the guys drafted are not even 21 yet.

Moore and Grundstrom are producing marginally on a bottom of the NHL team, I doubt either would even make a quality team like TO.

Are Sandin and Robertson close?

Drafting is a problem for TO, TO had done well in the top 10 but hasn't produced quality players outside of their top 10 draft choices for years, Dermott might be the best and he's 3rd pairing near minimum wage d-man at 24 years old.

In a perfect world Sandin, Lilly, Robertson will soon be with the Leafs and Amirov will soon follow, in a perfect world.

 

[Confucius]

They are full of defenders that can defend.

Which is why they rank like this:

Per 60min

#5 Goals Against
#11 Expected Goals Against
#7 Shots Against
#8 Unblocked Shot Attempts Against
#7 Shot Attempts Against

Seems like everytime I see a post by Zeke, I get that Oliver jeweler jingle in my head but the words I hear are, I'm that stats man, I'm the stats man. yeah!