Confirmed with Link: [TOR/PIT] RW Kapanen, D Lindgren, LW Aberg for '20 1st(15th), LW Rodrigues, C Hallander, D Warsofsky

[Menzinger]

Moore and Grundstrom are producing marginally on a bottom of the NHL team, I doubt either would even make a quality team like TO.

Are Sandin and Robertson close?

Drafting is a problem for TO, TO had done well in the top 10 but hasn't produced quality players outside of their top 10 draft choices for years, Dermott might be the best and he's 3rd pairing near minimum wage d-man at 24 years old.

In a perfect world Sandin, Lilly, Robertson will soon be with the Leafs and Amirov will soon follow, in a perfect world.

Though worth noting that there was a change of lead scouting personnel for the Leafs heading into the 2018 draft. So past draft misses aren't necessarily reflective of current scouting on the team

 

[hobarth]

They are full of defenders that can defend.

Which is why they rank like this:

Per 60min

#5 Goals Against
#11 Expected Goals Against
#7 Shots Against
#8 Unblocked Shot Attempts Against
#7 Shot Attempts Against

Is that because TO is so good or is it the quality of TO's competition, only Edmonton and TO would've made the playoffs of the Canadian teams last year.

 

[hobarth]

Though worth noting that there was a change of lead scouting personnel for the Leafs heading into the 2018 draft. So past draft misses aren't necessarily reflective of current scouting on the team

I agree but I don't know if TO's prospects are as well viewed outside of TO's universe. Robertson's 55 goals were spectacular in the O but it was a single year result, Sandin only needs to surpass Dermott to make the Leafs, same for Lilly and Amirov is basically getting 4th line icetime in the KHL, not exactly screaming outstanding prospects. I don't even know if the powers that be in TO view TO's prospects that fondly, time will tell.

 

[zeke]

Is that because TO is so good or is it the quality of TO's competition, only Edmonton and TO would've made the playoffs of the Canadian teams last year.

Did you think the leafs were heads and shoulders above the rest of the division coming into the year?

Pretty much every Canadian team aside from Ottawa was considered to be at least average coming into the year, and every one other than Vancouver was considered to have improved significantly in the offseason, so I don't know why they'd suddenly be bad just because the leafs beat them up.

And there was never any question about the offensive ability in this division anyways.

 

[Menzinger]

I agree but I don't know if TO's prospects are as well viewed outside of TO's universe. Robertson's 55 goals were spectacular in the O but it was a single year result, Sandin only needs to surpass Dermott to make the Leafs, same for Lilly and Amirov is basically getting 4th line icetime in the KHL, not exactly screaming outstanding prospects. I don't even know if the powers that be in TO view TO's prospects that fondly, time will tell.

I think it's fair to be skeptical over prospects who are still question marks

But Robertson's D+1 season was near historic, I don't think a prospect can do much else to up his perceived value. Sandin is tracking prety well compared to other D men taken in his draft class - same for Lily.

Amirov is doing what one usually expects for a younger guy playing in the khl. It's lesser usage, but he was likely a longer term development project (as to be expected from a non top 5 pick)

I don't really see any tangible evidence to be pessimistic about any of these guys.

 

[ToneDog]

Id rather have one of the 3 10+ million dollar Leafs forwards + Thornton this season than say Hall + Haula

Not sure I get your point.

 

[ToneDog]

Hoffman 24gms, 15:38, 24gl/62pt pace, 44.8xgf%
Granlund 22gms, 19:29, 19gl/37pt pace, 47.0xgf%
Duclair 19gms, 15:46, 8gl/43pt pace, 64.8xgf%
Haula 23gms, 15:35, 7gl/25pt pace, 40.4xgf%

Thornton 14gms, 15:29, 18gl/64pt pace, 58.0xgf%
Simmonds 12gms, 11:03, 34gl/34pt pace, 51.0xgf%
Spezza 25gms, 10:46, 16gl/53pt pace, 54.4xgf%
Boyd 17gms, 10:09, 15gl/39pt pace, 48.9xgf%


Excellent examples of why you don't waste precious cap dollars on depth players.

You are not exactly comparing apples to apples. Wonder what Granlunds pace would be next to 34 and 16. There is a reason some players take the min and others do not.

 

[ToneDog]

Win now move for team currently outside of a playoff spot might be a bad move.

No doubt but Rutherfords goal was to make the playoffs. Both teams got what they wanted from the trade.

 

[TMLAM34]

I’m excited to see Hallander get an opportunity to crack this Leafs lineup next season. I think he’s got all the tools to be that 3C this team needs and is looking for. He’s got good size (6’1), he isn’t afraid to go to the net, plays a little dirty and is solid both ways.

 

[ToneDog]

Another beauty for Kappy tonight.

 

[Stephen]

No doubt but Rutherfords goal was to make the playoffs. Both teams got what they wanted from the trade.

We got a first round pick (and a bluechip prospect), a secondary prospect and a bunch of cap space for Kapanen. It's okay that he's doing well. Leafs organization did even better.

 

[ToneDog]

We got a first round pick (and a bluechip prospect), a secondary prospect and a bunch of cap space for Kapanen. It's okay that he's doing well. Leafs organization did even better.

I was a big kappy fan. It was a good trade for both teams but i like his game especially when he is doing well.

 

[Future]

Another beauty for Kappy tonight.

Are you going to bump this thread every time he gets a point? Think most of us have moved on and are happy with the return. Don’t need a Kapanen play by play.

 

[ToneDog]

Are you going to bump this thread every time he gets a point? Think most of us have moved on and are happy with the return. Don’t need a Kapanen play by play.

Nah they can close the thread for all I care.

 

[Gurglesons]

We got a first round pick (and a bluechip prospect), a secondary prospect and a bunch of cap space for Kapanen. It's okay that he's doing well. Leafs organization did even better.

Hallander is not a blue chip prospect. Come on man. We were very high on Hallander in PIT. The org was too. They moved up to take him. The fact they lost faith in him says a lot about a team that is very good on the plug and play bottom sixer.

 

[Stephen]

Hallander is not a blue chip prospect. Come on man. We were very high on Hallander in PIT. The org was too. They moved up to take him. The fact they lost faith in him says a lot about a team that is very good on the plug and play bottom sixer.

That bluechipper would be Rodion Amirov, who would have be the jewel of the Penguins organization if they had used the first rounder the same way as Toronto.

Hallander would be the secondary prospect.

 

[Gurglesons]

That bluechipper would be Rodion Amirov.

Hallander would be the secondary prospect.

Ah. Agree. Amirov is a beauty.

When I saw who went in that range I didn’t give a shit about giving up our 1st thought I was hoping we could maybe get Lundell to drop to us and once he was taken there really wasn’t anyone that would’ve helped the Pens inevitable slide more than Kapanen.

 

[Stephen]

Ah. Agree. Amirov is a beauty.

When I saw who went in that range I didn’t give a shit about giving up our 1st thought I was hoping we could maybe get Lundell to drop to us and once he was taken there really wasn’t anyone that would’ve helped the Pens inevitable slide more than Kapanen.

Yeah the 2020 draft was an odd one for the Penguins. The prospect coming up is 5 years too young to help Crosby, Malkin and Letang and 5 years too early to help with the next era. Hence Kapanen.

 

[Gurglesons]

Yeah the 2020 draft was an odd one for the Penguins. The prospect coming up is 5 years too young to help Crosby, Malkin and Letang and 5 years too early to help with the next era. Hence Kapanen.

Pretty much. If we would’ve lucked into 1st overall I was arguing we should’ve traded it to one of LA or Ottawa.

 

[Stephen]

Pretty much. If we would’ve lucked into 1st overall I was arguing we should’ve traded it to one of LA or Ottawa.

I wouldn’t go that far. Would have been quite the game changer. But in any case, if the deal works out for both sides, that’s a win win.

 

[Gurglesons]

I wouldn’t go that far. Would have been quite the game changer. But in any case, if the deal works out for both sides, that’s a win win.

Byfield or Stützle made more sense for what PIT needed IMO.

Anyways. Yeah, deal seems like a total win / win and I’m not sure why so many people thought it was an insane overpayment.

 

[ICBM]

Engvall, 7th round pick, currently playing 3rd line.
Johnsson, 7th round pick, got 2 seasons from him mostly on the 3rd line.
Beyond Matthews & Marner they have Nylander, Dermott, Reilly all drafted & developed internally. Holl signed as an FA and developed by the Leafs.

Johnsson & Kap (and arguably Kadri) were traded primarily due to salary cap issues, not that they didn't work out, etc.

The aging free agents (I assume you mean Simmonds 5g in 12gp, Thornton 11p in 13gp, Spezza 15p on the 4th line. The others, Bog has been as advertised, Vesey ... not great so far but he's at least scoring now) are doing rather well this year. Brodie was an excellent signing, Campbell has been a solid backup when healthy, still have players like Robertson, Sandin, Liljegren and Amirov are still developing but all are expected to be full-time NHLers.

I'm not seeing much there to complain about.

Muzzin, Tavares, Thornton, Simmonds won't last long. This means Leaf window is very narrow. Could have been wider with younger players.
Look at Tampa and Wash. They have been good for a long time. Drafted and developed late picks into TOP-6 players. Not Engvall or Jonsson. Still won only once.

You can not win without drafting and developing successfully. And that means better than others. Leafs aren't good enough here. Very moderate results during Shanny's reign.
I still remember such patchwork teams falling apart in the playoffs. Carolina series still haunt me))

 

[WilliamInLondon]

Muzzin, Tavares, Thornton, Simmonds won't last long. This means Leaf window is very narrow. Could have been wider with younger players.
Look at Tampa and Wash. They have been good for a long time. Drafted and developed late picks into TOP-6 players. Not Engvall or Jonsson. Still won only once.

You can not win without drafting and developing successfully. And that means better than others. Leafs aren't good enough here. Very moderate results during Shanny's reign.
I still remember such patchwork teams falling apart in the playoffs. Carolina series still haunt me))

It's a still early to judge Dubas' record, but since you've defined the window as Shanahan's, I find it hard to disagree with you. Output from 2015 onwards looks weak beyond the first 2 rounds and the impact could have been much worse if not offset by astute international FA signings and bargain signings of veterans. It's not a sustainable model though in the long-term, and the Leafs will need at least 7 or 8 serious NHLers to emerge from the 2018-2020 pool to defray the perennial cap crunch and the oncoming/inevitable decline of some of the older players that you've listed.

I count Robertson, Sandin, Liljegren, and Amirov as the only sure bets at some point within the next 1-3 seasons. Probably need another half-dozen in the pipeline to sustain the level of competition, especially if Dermott is lost to expansion and Rielly re-ups with the Leafs.

 

[ICBM]

Of course it's about Shanny. Dubas is just a puppet. It was Shannahan who hired Babcock. He hired Lou. After all his mistakes in NJ. Only few of his questionable moves.

Dubas-Lou-Hunter trio - what was it for? You can not find one man with vision and brains?

 

[ULF_55]

It's a still early to judge Dubas' record, but since you've defined the window as Shanahan's, I find it hard to disagree with you. Output from 2015 onwards looks weak beyond the first 2 rounds and the impact could have been much worse if not offset by astute international FA signings and bargain signings of veterans. It's not a sustainable model though in the long-term, and the Leafs will need at least 7 or 8 serious NHLers to emerge from the 2018-2020 pool to defray the perennial cap crunch and the oncoming/inevitable decline of some of the older players that you've listed.

I count Robertson, Sandin, Liljegren, and Amirov as the only sure bets at some point within the next 1-3 seasons. Probably need another half-dozen in the pipeline to sustain the level of competition, especially if Dermott is lost to expansion and Rielly re-ups with the Leafs.

Leafs are fine until 24-25 season and then the issue is Tavares.

You don't need to draft top 6 forwards when you have 4 1st. liners.

Leafs will fine with bottom 6, or if you want to say drafting 3rd. liners until the crunch hits with the Matthews renewal and Tavares dead-feet era.

Kapanen fits nicely into the middle 6, and perhaps as the worst player in a top line.

Leafs and Penguins did okay in this transaction.