Speculation: Top-4 Defender

[Jag68Sid87]

Let's stop making moves because of the system. If we get off to a bad start, Bylsma and his flawed system will be out the door, and then what?

Besides, the system needs tweaking because we've been getting our ***** handed to us in the playoffs with this system.

We need more Regehr, less Boyle. This much I know. Because if you can win a Cup with Gill-Scuderi, you can win a Cup with Robyn Regehr-Letang, that's for bloody sure. We don't need more puck-possession guys to avoid the notion of playing defense. We need guys who can actually DEFEND.

System be damned.

 

[mpp9]

Let's stop making moves because of the system. If we get off to a bad start, Bylsma and his flawed system will be out the door, and then what?

Besides, the system needs tweaking because we've been getting our ***** handed to us in the playoffs with this system.

We need more Regehr, less Boyle. This much I know. Because if you can win a Cup with Gill-Scuderi, you can win a Cup with Robyn Regehr-Letang, that's for bloody sure. We don't need more puck-possession guys to avoid the notion of playing defense. We need guys who can actually DEFEND.

System be damned.

That's our organization's philosophy. Not DB's. We've drafted heavily in PMD. We're invested in that style of game. I'm all for bringing in some grit, but sorry, Regehr would be a catastro**** with Letang. Guy can't handle the puck, period. What happens when the puck gets dumped in his corner?

I'd like to see us get a guy in a similar mold to Letang as our go-to pairing to go out with Sid/Geno. Orpik/Martin as our go-to shutdown pairing. And rely on our home grown guys to fill things out from there.

No point in bringing in a guy like Regehr for bottom pairing minutes when we have the depth to fill out the 5/6/7 spots.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

This same coach won a Cup with guys far less talented with the puck as Regehr. But at no time that year did we see the complete farce of a defense we saw last spring.

We're more than able to sacrifice some puck skills on D for some true grit and reliability.

I'm sorry, but you can't win without reliability on D. You CAN win even without great puck skills back there, however. And WE proved it. Helps to have two of the most skilled players on the planet at the center position.

 

[ObsessedCreative*]

That's one of the interesting things going in here. I could see our D being pretty good (not great) all season, or a real cluster. Will depend some on systems and the Coach being able to adapt, and on Martin being paired with someone that takes the responsibility of being physical off his shoulders / frees him up to move the puck with reckless Bylsma-abandon, and on one of Bortuzzo or Despres really stepping up and not missing a beat as a rookie.

And that is the MAIN reason why were are going to be ****ED in the ass, HARD... no LUBE RIGHT IN!

 

[ObsessedCreative*]

Maybe it's just me, but I'd let Orpik/Martin be the shutdown pairing. Have some form of Niskanen/Despres/Strait/Bortuzzo/Engelland form your third pairing that can handle 15+ minutes in posteason hockey. And go after a dynamic offensive D-man like Boyle to pair with Letang at ES and on the PP. That type of D-man, you won't have to worry if he fits our system and can get Letang out of the D-zone.

I HATE the idea of having two d-pairings of puck movers.

Yeah, lets have BOTH D-men running around the ice like a chicken with it's head cut off instead of only one because of Bylsma's AWESOME "system"... UGH

 

[mpp9]

This same coach won a Cup with guys far less talented with the puck as Regehr. But at no time that year did we see the complete farce of a defense we saw last spring.

We're more than able to sacrifice some puck skills on D for some true grit and reliability.

I'm sorry, but you can't win without reliability on D. You CAN win even without great puck skills back there, however. And WE proved it. Helps to have two of the most skilled players on the planet at the center position.

Orpik/Martin
Boyle/Letang
Niskanen/Bortuzzo
Engelland

Orpik/Gonchar
Gill/Scuderi
Eaton/Letang

Martin has the ability to shutdown opponents better than Gonch on our Cup team. I'd take Dan Boyle over Eaton at any point in his career. And Niskanen/Engelland/Bortuzzo can handle plenty of minutes. Plenty of competition to see who earns the #6 spot come postseason.

Letang is a very good defensive D-man. Getting him someone who can help break the puck out of the zone is something I think Shero would be looking for.

 

[Riptide]

Orpik/Martin
Boyle/Letang
Niskanen/Bortuzzo
Engelland

Orpik/Gonchar
Gill/Scuderi
Eaton/Letang

Martin has the ability to shutdown opponents better than Gonch on our Cup team. I'd take Dan Boyle over Eaton at any point in his career. And Niskanen/Engelland/Bortuzzo can handle plenty of minutes. Plenty of competition to see who earns the #6 spot come postseason.

Letang is a very good defensive D-man. Getting him someone who can help break the puck out of the zone is something I think Shero would be looking for.

You can't compare the type of game that Boyle and Eaton played. Eaton was just a solid all around guy that did nothing special. But at least he was okay in his own end. Boyle isn't that type of player. He's very good offensively, but is crap in his own end.

 

[mpp9]

You can't compare the type of game that Boyle and Eaton played. Eaton was just a solid all around guy that did nothing special. But at least he was okay in his own end. Boyle isn't that type of player. He's very good offensively, but is crap in his own end.

I'll trust that two dynamic two way D-men can figure out how to break the puck out of their end.

We were rumored to be in on Yandle when Staal was still available. I think the organization is looking for that type of D-man to pair with Letang.

 

[KIRK]

I'm actually encouraged by the so called adjustments. There was a Bombulie interview posted in one of the threads and he said the adjustments were subtle but one was a change in the breakout to get the puck to the centers and less long stretch passes.

That is music to my ears as the Philly ate up that stretch pass. Plus, our centers are Sid and Geno. Getting the puck to them on the breakout is a no brainer. Maybe one of the reasons they aren't working is because WBS center depth is pathetic. I haven't watched many WBS games so someone else could comment better than me.

Oh, I hope you're right.

 

[KIRK]

This same coach won a Cup with guys far less talented with the puck as Regehr. But at no time that year did we see the complete farce of a defense we saw last spring.

We're more than able to sacrifice some puck skills on D for some true grit and reliability.

I'm sorry, but you can't win without reliability on D. You CAN win even without great puck skills back there, however. And WE proved it. Helps to have two of the most skilled players on the planet at the center position.

You mean before that coach fully introduced his system and went with made sure he only had yes men on the bench later that summer and thereafter?

 

[Riptide]

I'll trust that two dynamic two way D-men can figure out how to break the puck out of their end.

I think the organization is looking for that type of D-man to pair with Letang.

They might be. And they certainly know more about hockey than me. But I still don't think that's the type of pairing we need. The issue wouldn't be the breakout... it would be getting the puck in the first place before it's in the back of the net.

 

[mpp9]

They might be. And they certainly know more about hockey than me. But I still don't think that's the type of pairing we need. The issue wouldn't be the breakout... it would be getting the puck in the first place before it's in the back of the net.

You put Boyle and Letang on the ice with a top 6 featuring Sid/Geno and two legit wingers each and that problem is solved far more than acquiring any slow skating big bodied D-man.

The days of Gill/Scuderi are in the past. For better or worse, we've employed an up tempo system that needs proper personnel to see it succeed. Give me legit talent with our two best players and I think it'll work.

 

[KIRK]

You put Boyle and Letang on the ice with a top 6 featuring Sid/Geno and two legit wingers each and that problem is solved far more than acquiring any slow skating big bodied D-man.

The days of Gill/Scuderi are in the past. For better or worse, we've employed an up tempo system that needs proper personnel to see it succeed. Give me legit talent with our two best players and I think it'll work.

Look, the hulking defensemen are nice in the playoffs, when you get away with more ****.

BUT, you get to a point I've been making: If Sid and Geno have two good wingers each, it makes the task at hand seem less daunting than it is if that's not the case and the defense, on paper, is a bit better.

 

[jmelm]

TK is expendable. We acquire another top 6 forward, Dupuis can replace his offense and be a better fit on a shutdown line with Cooke/Sutter.

Boyle isn't a #1 anymore. They're grooming Burns for that role, but he's still every bit a top 4 guy who can eat up minutes and fits our system.

I think if SJ struggles early on, Boyle would be the most likely to be moved out of the big contracts in Thornton, Marleau and Boyle.

I don't understand what you're suggesting about Dupuis "replacing" TK's offense and his role on the 3rd line, and leaving who to replace Dupuis on the 1st line?


If you were talking about packaging TK for a better forward, then sure. But suggesting to trade TK for a Dman, how do you expect this to happn? Is Dupuis going to score at a 45 goal/season pace compared to the 25 he did last year to replace Kennedy's offense? We know we already there is one open spot on the top-6, and we're all crossing our fingers that one of Jeffrey or Tangradi will be able to perform, but that's far from certain. Like it or not, TK is one of our top wingers, and trading him without getting another one back is a bad move.


Also, remember to try to think beyond this season: I am very happy with what Dupuis, Cooke & Kunitz have done, and I don't think they will decline this or perhaps next season; but they are getting up there in age, and at some point they will decline. Kennedy is bound to only improve, since he is on the upside of his career. You're not thinking long-term.

 

[KIRK]

I don't understand what you're suggesting about Dupuis "replacing" TK's offense and his role on the 3rd line, and leaving who to replace Dupuis on the 1st line?


If you were talking about packaging TK for a better forward, then sure. But suggesting to trade TK for a Dman, how do you expect this to happn? Is Dupuis going to score at a 45 goal/season pace compared to the 25 he did last year to replace Kennedy's offense? We know we already there is one open spot on the top-6, and we're all crossing our fingers that one of Jeffrey or Tangradi will be able to perform, but that's far from certain. Like it or not, TK is one of our top wingers, and trading him without getting another one back is a bad move.


Also, remember to try to think beyond this season: I am very happy with what Dupuis, Cooke & Kunitz have done, and I don't think they will decline this or perhaps next season; but they are getting up there in age, and at some point they will decline. Kennedy is bound to only improve, since he is on the upside of his career. You're not thinking long-term.

How many of those guys were playing regularly with Sid and Geno when the Pens won a cup? How many when the Pens last won a playoff series? Hint: The answer is 1, Kunitz.

 

[mpp9]

I don't understand what you're suggesting about Dupuis "replacing" TK's offense and his role on the 3rd line, and leaving who to replace Dupuis on the 1st line?


If you were talking about packaging TK for a better forward, then sure. But suggesting to trade TK for a Dman, how do you expect this to happn? Is Dupuis going to score at a 45 goal/season pace compared to the 25 he did last year to replace Kennedy's offense? We know we already there is one open spot on the top-6, and we're all crossing our fingers that one of Jeffrey or Tangradi will be able to perform, but that's far from certain. Like it or not, TK is one of our top wingers, and trading him without getting another one back is a bad move.


Also, remember to try to think beyond this season: I am very happy with what Dupuis, Cooke & Kunitz have done, and I don't think they will decline this or perhaps next season; but they are getting up there in age, and at some point they will decline. Kennedy is bound to only improve, since he is on the upside of his career. You're not thinking long-term.

I'd trade for Boyle using TK+high end prospect/future. I see SJ looking to unload one of their big contract guys in the near future. If they struggle at the start of the season, I think we should be inquiring.

I believe Shero will find a way to land Sid's RW. I also think Tangradi has a good chance at earning a spot with Geno/Neal. DB's stubborn ways may actually benefit him this time around. I'd imagine he'll want to keep Kunitz/Sid/Dupuis together and Cooke/Sutter/TK.

And yea, if landing a top 4 D and/or top line RW means moving TK, you do it.

 

[limite*]

People are always going to make the arguments that young guys are unproven, but if you never give them the chance, you never allow prospects to become real players, and then become veterans, etc. It's called Evolution. Look it up, for those who don't know what it is. .

I wouldn't take about evolution if I were you - the vast majority of species become extinct. And so will the Pens in the playoffs with the current d, prospects included. They are an average group at best and only Letang prevents them from being among the worst in league. They need both a sudden return by Martin and a major upgrade, but don't have the assets to make a deal. No one is going to given you a top proven defeneman for any combination of unproven rookies. And the Pens have nothing much else to trade. They also better hope that Vakoun supplies a major upgrade in goal, because Fluery has shown that he is far more likely to lose games than to win them.

 

[wgknestrick]

I've been wanting Mike Weaver for a while now. He won't cost the Pen's an arm and a leg.

Plays solid D against top competition....doesn't get blown away by them either in +-.

 

[UnrealMachine]

While I am an advocate of seeing how our current D roster plays out, allow me to propose a litmus test for any D that we propose to trade for.

Stanley Cup Finals game 7. We are up 2-1 with 30 seconds to play. Do you trust this D-man to be on the ice versus the competition's top line? If the answer is no, no thanks.

 

[BHD]

Already have our own version of Jeffrey in Marcus Kruger

Would need real improvement at C spot

I think Hammer could be had for a decent pick + Prospect if Hawks do move him

Wouldn't the Hawks be looking to package Hjalmarsson + for an upgrade at forward, or even on defense?

 

[jmelm]

I'd trade for Boyle using TK+high end prospect/future. I see SJ looking to unload one of their big contract guys in the near future. If they struggle at the start of the season, I think we should be inquiring.

I believe Shero will find a way to land Sid's RW. I also think Tangradi has a good chance at earning a spot with Geno/Neal. DB's stubborn ways may actually benefit him this time around. I'd imagine he'll want to keep Kunitz/Sid/Dupuis together and Cooke/Sutter/TK.

And yea, if landing a top 4 D and/or top line RW means moving TK, you do it.

First of all, it's conjecture & speculation to assume that Boyle is the guy they would look to move first. If I was SJ, and knowing their prospect pipeline, I would NOT be looking to move Boyle. I would first look to move Havlat. After that, I would probably look in the direction of Marleau or Thornton. In any event, there is ZERO evidence that they have interest in moving him, and there are a lot of other players whose contracts are expiring. In other words, this is just pure fiction and 100% hypothetical right now.


Second, if you want to manage your assets intelligently, you trade from areas of strength, not weakness. I have no problem trading a forward in a package for a BETTER forward. But it makes better sense to trade our defensive prospects to add another forward or more mature Dman. Would I trade Despres for Boyle? I'm not sure, because the latter is quite old, signed to an expensive contract, and is very similar to other guys we have in the system (Letang, Pouliot, as undersized, offesive-minded guys). Would I trade Despres for a guy like Bouwmeester? Sure, because he's young enough and compliments our core better to be part of our long-term future.


So whether we're trading for a top-4 Dman or a top-6 forward, we should be buildng our package from our areas of strength. I think we need to look for someone who's younger and a better long-term fit than Boyle.

I wouldn't take about evolution if I were you - the vast majority of species become extinct. And so will the Pens in the playoffs with the current d, prospects included. They are an average group at best and only Letang prevents them from being among the worst in league. They need both a sudden return by Martin and a major upgrade, but don't have the assets to make a deal. No one is going to given you a top proven defeneman for any combination of unproven rookies. And the Pens have nothing much else to trade. They also better hope that Vakoun supplies a major upgrade in goal, because Fluery has shown that he is far more likely to lose games than to win them.

Hey man, thanks for reminding me! I forgot to put you on my ignore list last time.

I've been wanting Mike Weaver for a while now. He won't cost the Pen's an arm and a leg.

Plays solid D against top competition....doesn't get blown away by them either in +-.

I'm not sure that a 5'9, 34 year old Dman is what this team needs right now either, and I don't believe this player -- who was already once part of this organization -- projects to be substantially better than guys like Strait and Bortuzzo, whom we already have in our organization and are on the cusp of being good NHLers.

 

[eXile59]

We had four top 4 D-men last year in Martin, Michalek, Letang, & Orpik. You could bring in Lidstrom in his prime & it wouldn't help if the system is broke.

 

[mpp9]

First of all, it's conjecture & speculation to assume that Boyle is the guy they would look to move first. If I was SJ, and knowing their prospect pipeline, I would NOT be looking to move Boyle. I would first look to move Havlat. After that, I would probably look in the direction of Marleau or Thornton. In any event, there is ZERO evidence that they have interest in moving him, and there are a lot of other players whose contracts are expiring. In other words, this is just pure fiction and 100% hypothetical right now.


Second, if you want to manage your assets intelligently, you trade from areas of strength, not weakness. I have no problem trading a forward in a package for a BETTER forward. But it makes better sense to trade our defensive prospects to add another forward or more mature Dman. Would I trade Despres for Boyle? I'm not sure, because the latter is quite old, signed to an expensive contract, and is very similar to other guys we have in the system (Letang, Pouliot, as undersized, offesive-minded guys). Would I trade Despres for a guy like Bouwmeester? Sure, because he's young enough and compliments our core better to be part of our long-term future.


So whether we're trading for a top-4 Dman or a top-6 forward, we should be buildng our package from our areas of strength. I think we need to look for someone who's younger and a better long-term fit than Boyle.

This is HF, it's all speculation. I don't have ties to NHL GMs. Nor do you. IMO, they'll keep Thornton around as captain, let Marleau retire as a Shark. Which leaves Boyle as their big contract guy they might look to move. Havlat brings speed to their top 6, they need that. More of it as well.

I like TK, but he's hardly someone I'd feel bad including in a deal for a top 4 D-man. We'll deal with replacing him after Duper's wheels fall off. I wouldn't trade him unless we're adding a forward to the top 6.

No doubt our defense prospects will be our major bargaining chips. I look at quotes from Shero talking about having cap space and the assets to make deals and the reality that top 4 D-men are near impossible to acquire. Boyle is a guy I'd target. Still will be a top 4 guy at the end of his contract. And it won't impact us resigning Geno or Letang.

I think we're in a unique position this deadline. Plenty of expendable assets. Lot of cap space.

 

[Geno Machino]

Although he is a really solid 3c he is still a formidable top 6 option. His defense on Geno and Neals line would just be killer. As 3c hell chip in 15-20, top 6 hell chip in 20-25. Jeffrey is still a 3c option and people forget that. He has the skills to compete in that position but it is not ideal.

UMMM No he is NOT a "formidable top 6 option" Good Lord

 

[ObsessedCreative*]

Anyone have an insight into Boston's Adam McQuaid what it would take to swing a deal to bring a guy like him in?