Speculation: Top-4 Defender

[Dupree13]

Not to mention of course that the entire reason PK hasn't signed is that he's reportedly seeking Drew Doughty type money. It wouldn't be prudent for Shero to give that out right now.

 

[Dupree13]

I don't doubt it. I'm not sure enough of their needs to know what combo they'd want.

And, would they hang up because of the actual value that I proposed OR the need for atleast one established NHL talent?

Both, because they go hand in hand. There is a chance that Despres and Pouliot never amount to much, making a pure prospect return very risky (even if they were willing to get worse in the present.). So they would be wise to get some proven commodity to make sure any deal doesn't go full bust.

 

[Shockmaster]

I don't want Suban for two reasons:

1.) He wasn't very good last year.

2.) If he's a Penguin, then the NHL will actually start suspending him for slew footing. He can get away with it in Montreal where I think the league may be intimidated by that fanbase (the refs sure are).

 

[Steve Durbano]

I would absolutley love to have Subban here. Kid's got an attitude but he's a great player.

Not going to happend though, but one can dream.

Just imagine getting OEL here. Absolute pipedream but i would cry happy happy tears of joy if that would happend. Niskanen + 2/1 pick + prospect, eh eh eh?
GET IT DONE RAY JESUS WHAT'S TAKING SO LONG

The kid would be the 2013 version of Ulfie.

 

[Darth Vitale]

I agree that this D group is a concern. I actually think they have the potential to be pretty terrible..

That's one of the interesting things going in here. I could see our D being pretty good (not great) all season, or a real cluster. Will depend some on systems and the Coach being able to adapt, and on Martin being paired with someone that takes the responsibility of being physical off his shoulders / frees him up to move the puck with reckless Bylsma-abandon, and on one of Bortuzzo or Despres really stepping up and not missing a beat as a rookie.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Let's say-- again leaving aside the WHY question-- that MTL explores moving Subban. What's their price?

Is Nisky, Despres, and Pouliot the type of return they'd be seeking? More? Less? A different combo of players/prospects/positions?

Someone mentioned earlier, and I believe it, the Habs MUST make the playoffs (shortened season or not). So it wouldn't be a straight futures deal, that's for sure.

We have gritty players Therrien likes, and I'm sure Bergevin would seek some of that. I don't think it'd be 3 young D-men. Montreal has decent D prospects already, including a shutdown guy (Tinordi) and a puck mover (Beaulieu). So I think it'd be one of Despres or Pouliot, and then maybe some grit up front, and then maybe a pick would have to be included. Something like that.

It's hard to get a read on it, though, because of what Subban means to that org. At least, what we perceive to be his value to the organization. Maybe they see it differently. We know the fans will be pissed if they deal Subban. That much is fact.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

I don't want Suban for two reasons:

1.) He wasn't very good last year.

How many of our defensemen were good last year? And Subban was a product of the total debacle in Montreal last season. I've seen him play live many times now. He has franchise defenseman written all over him. It's just that for whatever reason, people have a hate-on for him.

 

[Shockmaster]

How many of our defensemen were good last year? And Subban was a product of the total debacle in Montreal last season. I've seen him play live many times now. He has franchise defenseman written all over him. It's just that for whatever reason, people have a hate-on for him.

Fair enough. But what has he done to deserve Drew Doughty money? There are more affordable, and frankly better guys out there to get for top 4.

And his reputation of slew footing would make him less attractive to other GMs.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Fair enough. But what has he done to deserve Drew Doughty money? There are more affordable, and frankly better guys out there to get for top 4.

And his reputation of slew footing would make him less attractive to other GMs.

We don't know what his contract demands would be if traded, or even if he still wants Doughty money (or ever did, really).

Secondly, if you think the second part is accurate you don't know what GMs think. Most GMs prefer players who are real SOBs to line up against. That wins you games.

 

[Dupree13]

I agree that this D group is a concern. I actually think they have the potential to be pretty terrible.

Even Letang I'm not sure of. While he's obviously got a ton of ability, I'm not sure if he has enough upstairs to be the rock solid #1 that we're looking for him to be. And someone said they saw leadership traits in Tanger...I really don't see that at all.

Yeah...it's also been noted that Letang didn't seem quite the same last year after coming back from his multiple concussions (yeah...remember that?) so that's something to keep an eye on as well.

 

[KIRK]

Yeah...it's also been noted that Letang didn't seem quite the same last year after coming back from his multiple concussions (yeah...remember that?) so that's something to keep an eye on as well.

You just replied to yourself?

 

[KIRK]

That's one of the interesting things going in here. I could see our D being pretty good (not great) all season, or a real cluster. Will depend some on systems and the Coach being able to adapt, and on Martin being paired with someone that takes the responsibility of being physical off his shoulders / frees him up to move the puck with reckless Bylsma-abandon, and on one of Bortuzzo or Despres really stepping up and not missing a beat as a rookie.

Don't hurt yourself going out on that limb . . .

Only thing that concerns me-- more than usual-- was reading that Bylsma's adjustments have been implemented at WBS this year.

 

[Riptide]

I want a big mean crease clearing and protecting D-Dman.

Agreed. While not quite the mean punishing D, I'm still in love with Hejda. Pair him with Martin for a shutdown role, as Martin can play solid defensive hockey when not being forced into an up tempo game that's not quite his style.

 

[KIRK]

Agreed. While not quite the mean punishing D, I'm still in love with Hejda. Pair him with Martin for a shutdown role, as Martin can play solid defensive hockey when not being forced into an up tempo game that's not quite his style.

Well, replacing the last czech we paired with Martin for that czech should do wonders . . .

 

[mpp9]

Maybe it's just me, but I'd let Orpik/Martin be the shutdown pairing. Have some form of Niskanen/Despres/Strait/Bortuzzo/Engelland form your third pairing that can handle 15+ minutes in posteason hockey. And go after a dynamic offensive D-man like Boyle to pair with Letang at ES and on the PP. That type of D-man, you won't have to worry if he fits our system and can get Letang out of the D-zone.

 

[Riptide]

There's a guy possibly available, a guy that I'm guessing everybody hates on this board. A guy who could instantly become Letang's rival in total ice time. A guy who could pair with Letang perhaps, be both a shutdown D-man and an offensive catalyst. A guy who is more physical than Letang, just as mobile and a royal pain to play against. A guy who (if paired with Letang) could turn our first pairing into a Suter-Weber 2.0 situation. The only caveat is Letang would have to play the left side, but he may have to do so even without this guy.

I'm talking about P.K. Subban. I know most people feel he's not a "Pittsburgh" guy, or whatever. But he's a really good D-man. Plays in every situation. Would bring back some attitude that this team has lacked for a while.

I don't want him here. I acknowledge that he's a talented player. However I don't see him as that shutdown guy - they use Gorges for that role. I see Subban more as a Letang type player. As for his attitude... I don't think we need that either. Then factor in the cost to acquire him. We have offensive D in our system (Morrow/Pouliot) and we have defensive D (Harrington/Dumoulin/Bort) and some who are a mix of both (Strait and Despres).

The only problem is they need time (1-3/4 years). But with the D we currently have (Letang, Orpik, Martin, Niskanen, etc) has the majority of our needs covered. Find a 20m+ physical shutdown guy, and I think we're set.

 

[KIRK]

Maybe it's just me, but I'd let Orpik/Martin be the shutdown pairing. Have some form of Niskanen/Despres/Strait/Bortuzzo/Engelland form your third pairing that can handle 15+ minutes in posteason hockey. And go after a dynamic offensive D-man like Boyle to pair with Letang at ES and on the PP. That type of D-man, you won't have to worry if he fits our system and can get Letang out of the D-zone.

I don't think it's 'you' as much as the realization that everything else in terms of possible pairings has been tried by design or due to desperation from injuries.

 

[Riptide]

Well, replacing the last czech we paired with Martin for that czech should do wonders . . .

Hejda and Michalek play vastly different styles. One is a physical shutdown type. The other is a defensive shotblocking type who can skate and move the puck.

I think there's a place for Martin on this team - at least in the short term. Orpik's value is solely in his hitting, but if we could replace that with someone who's also good defensively, then we could move Orpik which would open up a spot for one of our rookies.

One of our problems is we have a lot of guys who do different things well... But guys who we need for something specific. As much as I love Niskanen's progress and believe he can be a #4 guy, I'm not sure who we'd pair him with, and think he's the most expendable - except that he's on a great contract for the next 2 years. Just how do you fit him in? Especially with our deep group of rookies coming in who'll all need icetime shortly.

The only way I see these 4 guys being our top 4 is with Martin/Letang and Orpik/Niskanen playing together, and getting Martin to play a defensive role for Letang.

Martin - PMD, can play big minutes
Letang - offensive
Orpik - physical, kind of defensive, can play 20+ mins.
Niskanen - not physical, offensive/PMD

Letang - Martin
Orpik - Niskanen
Despres - Strait/Bort

Tade/sit Engelland (a very effective 3rd pairing guy on a great contract - just no upside - he is what he is). Dump Lovejoy - his time is done. Unless Dumoulin blows the lights out, send him to WBS. Leave Morrow and Harrington in the CHL/AHL. Pretty much the only two rookies I'd really be considering would be Dumoulin and Despres, with Despres getting the edge due to his play last year, and that he's put his time in and has more upside that Bort/Strait.

But we need to start feeding our young D into the system... or what's the point of drafting them if we're never going to use them?

 

[mpp9]

I don't think it's 'you' as much as the realization that everything else in terms of possible pairings has been tried by design or due to desperation from injuries.

I just think Shero is going to be very hesitant to bring in immobile D-men unfamiliar with system after having the Michalek signing end up in a cap dump. This time, he'd be moving valuable assets with the risk of it not working out, instead of just cash.

I'd prefer to see us trust Orpik/Martin can match up with a team's best players. Trust that our organization got Bortuzzo ready for a role with the team as a solid stay-at-home guy who is comfortable with the way we play. Pair him with one of our PMD. And get Letang someone who can help move the puck north. If that D-man can also the QB the PP, all the better.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

I don't know why we'd want any part of Dan Boyle. Good player, but he's past his prime and he's a non-physical type of D-man that we already have too much of. And he's another right defenseman. And he's expensive. And he's old.

I love the idea of Robyn Regehr, but if it's at the expense of Bortuzzo getting his shot I'd rather try what we already have.

 

[Shady Machine]

Don't hurt yourself going out on that limb . . .

Only thing that concerns me-- more than usual-- was reading that Bylsma's adjustments have been implemented at WBS this year.

I'm actually encouraged by the so called adjustments. There was a Bombulie interview posted in one of the threads and he said the adjustments were subtle but one was a change in the breakout to get the puck to the centers and less long stretch passes.

That is music to my ears as the Philly ate up that stretch pass. Plus, our centers are Sid and Geno. Getting the puck to them on the breakout is a no brainer. Maybe one of the reasons they aren't working is because WBS center depth is pathetic. I haven't watched many WBS games so someone else could comment better than me.

 

[jmelm]

Good points. But knowing what we know about Shero, he can't be excited about our current defense. He's a defense first guy and while we have the prospect coming soon, I don't see why we can't parlay some of them into defenders who are more impact players now. I just don't love Orpik, Martin and Nisky rounding out our top 4. And with teams looking to be busy (so Dreger has speculated) on Sunday, I wouldn't be shocked if Shero's looking to acquire a top 4 defenseman.

People will, again, hate me for saying this, but the only Dman who is a realistic target for trade and who would be a legitimate upgrade for this team -- and is still young enogh to be part of our future for 10 years -- is Jay Bouwmeester. But I think CGY is so stubborn about rebuilding, that unless they are way out of the playoff picture by the deadline, they won't move him. And, unlike many of you may think, if they do put him on the market, there will be a lot of teams after him.

A Boyle/Letang pairing would be nasty. He's got two years left on his contract. If SJ would be willing to eat part of it, I think we could give them a package of players they'd be interested in.

They absolutely could use a guy like TK. If Jeffrey is ready to go this season and can take on a 3C role, he'd fill a hole there as well. Add a top prospect and I think they'd consider it.

Aside from the points that Jags, I and others have brought up about Boyle being past his prime and getting old, us trading TK (one of our most productive offensive forwards) and not getting one back in return would be a step backwards. I, too, would like to improve our defense; but even more than that, I'd like to improve our forwards. I don't like that move. Besides, SJ is also looking to compete this year, so they're not going to trade Boyle now.

We already have enough D on the roster to fill out our top 4, 6, 7, etc. Let's see how they look over the first 20-30 games before even considering any moves.

Great idea. Seriously, this ^

I don't think people are giving Bortuzzo and Strait any respect here. I know they will probably never be top 4 D-men but they have been very good in the AHL. I only wish we had a full season for this experiment. With a short season teams can't afford too many rookie screw ups. I'm sure they will be on a short leash. At least we know they are in game shape. That's one advantage tey will have going in.

and, seriously this ^. People are always going to make the arguments that young guys are unproven, but if you never give them the chance, you never allow prospects to become real players, and then become veterans, etc. It's called Evolution. Look it up, for those who don't know what it is. Seeing where our entire team is at after 20-30 games, including these guys, is a great idea, and also the most likely scenario to happen.

 

[mpp9]

I don't know why we'd want any part of Dan Boyle. Good player, but he's past his prime and he's a non-physical type of D-man that we already have too much of. And he's another right defenseman. And he's expensive. And he's old.

I love the idea of Robyn Regehr, but if it's at the expense of Bortuzzo getting his shot I'd rather try what we already have.

I'd guarantee Dan Boyle would have more of a positive impact with this team than Regehr. The latter is a guy who can't handle the puck very well and isn't a very good skater and we're talking about putting him in a top 4 role with our #1 D-man in a system that demands quick puck retrievals and joining the rush?

There aren't alot of options out there for top 4 D-men. Teams hold onto them. Boyle does have a big caphit, but with the CBA allowing teams to share caphits in trades and us being in pretty damn good shape from a cap standpoint, we could afford to bring Boyle in.

Yes, Letang and Boyle are both RHS's. But if I get a chance to bring in a player of his caliber to pair with Letang, I'll trust that elite defenseman can make the adjustment. That pairing would be nuts to watch.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

Not as big of a fan of Hjalmarsson, but if Chicago is looking for a 2nd/3rd line center, Jeffrey is would be a decent part of that trade then. I am not sure what else they would want included in the deal to make it worthwhile.

Already have our own version of Jeffrey in Marcus Kruger

Would need real improvement at C spot

I think Hammer could be had for a decent pick + Prospect if Hawks do move him

 

[mpp9]

Aside from the points that Jags, I and others have brought up about Boyle being past his prime and getting old, us trading TK (one of our most productive offensive forwards) and not getting one back in return would be a step backwards. I, too, would like to improve our defense; but even more than that, I'd like to improve our forwards. I don't like that move. Besides, SJ is also looking to compete this year, so they're not going to trade Boyle now.

TK is expendable. We acquire another top 6 forward, Dupuis can replace his offense and be a better fit on a shutdown line with Cooke/Sutter.

Boyle isn't a #1 anymore. They're grooming Burns for that role, but he's still every bit a top 4 guy who can eat up minutes and fits our system.

I think if SJ struggles early on, Boyle would be the most likely to be moved out of the big contracts in Thornton, Marleau and Boyle.