It's not a bad idea to let the HHOF represent fans feelings to an extent.
If Canucks fans feel like the Sedins are legends then just give them the nod. Hurts no one, makes a ton of fans happy etc.
Seems good for business, you want people to care about your tourist Hall of Fame because that's what it is, a tourist attraction.
There are more things to factor in than how high they were in the scoring race. There are so many things to consider. You can't just point at numbers and say a player like Kessel / Benn / Parise is equivalent to the Sedins as far as HoF worthiness is concerned. It's more about hockey legacy, notoriety, and FAME which the Sedins have a ton of.Henrik Sedin:
Top 10 points: 1/4/7/10
Top 10 goals: N/A
Daniel Sedin:
Top 10 points: 1/8
Top 10 goals: 4
If these 2 get in, then the following players should based off of similar prime seasons (not including some of the obvious choices): Benn, Kessel, Backstrom, Tavares, Getzlaf, Marchand, Staal, Kopitar, Zetterberg, Spezza, Giroux, Perry, Toews, Pavelski, Parise, Kovalchuk.
All mentioned above had equal or better records as top players in the league, sure some might not have the 1 year peak, but I'm not sure that threads the needle enough.
And then for more young players who already have more impressive point and goal finishes: Kucherov, McDavid, Seguin, Mackinnon, Matthews (if he gets a top 10 point finish this year), Draisaitl, Panarin, Pastrnak, Hall
I know the Sedins are a bit of nostalgia for a lot of people, but if the bar for getting in the hall is 1,000 points (in any amount of games), and/or a couple top 10 finishes, then WAY too many players are going to be in or close.
Fair enough and you may be right though it’s hard to predict - eg., was Sundin expected to be a 1st?PPG, goals and even overall points are a glaring weakness compared to some players who have been retired for longer.
I’m not saying these guys won’t get in, just that it might not be on the first go.
While voters certainly consider WAR in baseball, I don’t think voters pay much attention to WAR yet in hockey. Of course the gold counts and also helps many other players cases.
Oates and Sundin absolutely belong in the Hall.Recchi, Oates, Andreychuck too. Just let in a lot of guys who played for 20 years and collected a lot of points but soft peaks, no hardware. Unlike these guys at least the Sedins have hardware and point totals plus a cool unique angle. Hall of fame is a joke now you get a few of these not so impressive players in, then a load of "builders" (owners putting themselves in LOL and then non-NHL players you never heard of. Who seriously cares about any of that? The place is such a mess the only reason worth going is to see the cup up close.
Just curious - who are they among currently eligible?Everyone knows that they are going to make the HHOF but better players are being left out.
People forget that the Hall of FAME includes their notoriety just as much (if not more so) than numbers. One of the best set of twin athletes ever, played their entire careers in Vancouver, among the best players of their country, the only set of identical twins If they had paltry numbers I'd say that it could disqualify them. But they've had consistently solid careers, and were among the best forwards in the league (not THE best, but among the top-tier).I agree. It's the Hall of Fame, if we want a list of the statistical and award leaders we can go to Hockey Reference. The novelty of them being twins who played their career together with one franchise absolutely will, and should, carry weight. And it's not like it's not close without the novelty. There are 9 players not in the Hall who have scored more than Henrik. Another four for Daniel. The vast majority of them have simply retired too recently and will likely be HoFers in time.
I have zero doubt they'll be in the hall.
So like - I don't disagree that they shouldn't be HHOF-worthy if the HHOF inducted players in a way that didn't lead to guys like Dino Cicarelli in, but the standards - such as they are - are low enough that their resume is clearly HHOF-worthy in comparison to other inductees.
I love how elite Cooperstown is. Hockey should be that picky.HHOF isn't really very elite. It's nothing like Cooperstown. They will get in for sure.
Whatever happened to career goals and pts?
These guys were just good players who never won a championship. Always had each other.
Not HHOF Worthy.
I have a lot of sympathy for this view. It’s a little bit like if you have to start looking at stats and other facts when a name is proposed - well there you have it: not Hall of Fame material.I love how elite Cooperstown is. Hockey should be that picky.
I like the Sedins. Good players, fun to watch, much tougher than they get credit for (don't have to drop the gloves to be tough). They had a nice peak that coincided with some good team success. So unlike when say... Carbonneau or Housley or Andreychuk get in, I don't look at their induction as some sort of "cheapening" of the Hall. Solid careers, good peak, some team success if no rings, some hardware, and a great story. So *when* they get in, I shouldn't expect a whole lot of reactionary takes about it. I just wish the Hall meant more.
You can honor Sittler's 10 point game without putting Sittler in the HHOF. You can tell stories about the Miracle on Ice without having Jim Craig as an inductee. I haven't physically been to the Hall - but generally I think you can tell the stories and honor the cool things that happened, and then separate that from the honored members.I have a lot of sympathy for this view. It’s a little bit like if you have to start looking at stats and other facts when a name is proposed - well there you have it: not Hall of Fame material.
One question though - if it would be done like that, would the actual museum be lacking? E.g., in this specific case - don’t you wanna have the twins story there? But I guess, thinking about, that would probably be an ultimately bad criteria - honoring uniqueness over accomplishment sometimes.
Yes. Bure was a HHOF talent. Sedins weren't. Marginally better than Trevor Linden. Doesn't get you into the HHOF.
I was about to say that an application of the Keltner's list translated to hockey would be nice, so I typed Keltner hfboards and ended up with the cases of Grant Fuhr and Chris Osgood vs. The List. Made by, well, me. I'm not the source of the translation and I can't quite remember who came up with it (though I have some couple of candidates in mind)
Ken Keltner and Chris Osgood
The Keltner List, translated to hockey, applied to Henrik Sedin to make things easier
1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in hockey? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in hockey?
He won the Hart award, and while I don't think anyone saw him as ultimately better than Sidney Crosby and Alex Ovechkin, it's pretty safe to say the Hart award suggests that he was the best player in the NHL that season. It was also when there was no goalie at the top of the world, like Hasek was in the late 90ies, and when Niklas Lidstrom had arguably his best days behind him.
2. Was he the best player on his team?
Yes (and if he wasn't, it was Daniel)
3. Was he the best player in hockey at his position? Was he the best player in his conference at his position?
Two straight AS-1 suggests that he was at least the 2nd best Center for a while, in the context where Sidney Crosby might have lost AS-1 due to injuries. For most of NHL's history, the best Center at a given moment was INFERIOR to Crosby. Big plus for Sedin as far as I'm concerned. You can go both ways, but it's certainly favorable to Sedin.
4. Did he have an impact on a number of playoff races?
You can't really NOT have an impact when you're the leading scorer of your team that went to the SCF, but Sedin was part of a franchise that probably ended up underachieving as a whole during his tenure, and as the best player of a team, are you really making a difference if your team is underachieveing? Underwhelming
5. Was he a good enough player that he could continue to play regularly after passing his prime?
His last prime season was... what, 2012-2013? So yeah, obviously.
6. Is he the very best player in hockey history who is not in the Hall of Fame?
Amongst eligibles? I don't quite think so, but it can probably argued. It doesn't weight much since there can be up to 4 players enshrined a year.
7. Are most players who have comparable career statistics in the Hall of Fame?
There are forwards who played in higher scoring eras who are in with worse numbers. PPG isn't that great, but that's mostly on the back of a few non-productive years, and cutting them entirely of his resume doesn't give him bad longevity or anything (in fact, he'd still have more games than someone like Theoren Fleury or Martin St-Louis). His adjusted numbers are inferior to the somewhat comparable Adam Oates. They're all in all better than Bernie Federko, also somewhat comparable. It's a closer call with Denis Savard. His numbers are better than Henrik Zetterberg and Vincent Lecavalier (the first being almost certainly a future HHOF, the second being almost certainly not). Also better than Brad Richards. It's probably a yes, BUT...
8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?
240 goals is EXTREMELY low for a modern forward. He doesn't even appear in the hockey-reference lists (which stops at 250th, a rank shared with Shayne Corson, Ryan Getzlaf and Al Secord, with 273 goals). This is a lesser amount than quite a few D-Men (on top of my head : Bourque, MAcinnis, Coffey, Murphy and almost certainly Brian Leetch) and than Red Kelly (!). It's the same amount as Rob Blake. The only post O-6 forward in with less than 240 goals is Bob Gainey, a defensive forward with a Conn Smythe and four Selkes. If you're a "modern" forward and your Goal Total is inferior to Bob Gainey's Goal Toal + Selkes, I'd say you're missing something. Missing in one rather important aspect.
9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?
...Heh, extreme compatibiliy with Daniel hints at "worse", but he also made Alex Burrows a 35 goal scorer. He's better than his PPG indicates, and he's otherwise not worse; probably actually a bit better. But he's not better than his numbers would indicate the way someone like Anze Kopitar is. Meh.
10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame but not in?
Amongst Eligibles? I have to be convinced he isn't, because I think he is (of course, Crosby, Malkin and Thornton are better, but they're not eligible. Let's ignore Zetterberg.). YES unless I missed someone obvious.
11. How many Hart-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an Hart Trophy? If not, how many times was he close?
One (10-11 wasn't bad, but that would've been a very weak Hart). Yes. Well, there's 10-11, but that's an awful answer. Neutral.
12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the other players who played in this many go to the Hall of Fame?
The All-Star Game translates badly, so I'll go for the All Star Team (which is probably a bit stricter than baseball)
Two AS-1 : 2009-10 and 2010-11
Those are C All-Star team, that are typically "harder" to obtain than W All-Star Team.
All Centers with two First All Star Team berths are in the Hall of Fame, and you have Centers with zero or one berth, or a lesser combination of berths than AS1+AS1, that made it (and that will make it). Sedin's compatriots Sundin and Zetterberg come to mind. Easy Yes.
13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win their conference?
It actually happened. Obvious Yes.
14. What impact did the player have on hockey history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?
He and his brother Daniel were the masters of cycling, which became a go-to OZ Strategy. Oh, and he played with his twin. On the same Line. On the same team. For their whole careers. Very Easy Yes
15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?
Well, he has two Clancys, so.... Easy Yes.