The Sedins Were Stars at Best Who had Each Other. Not HHOF Worthy.

[wetcoast]

Everyone knows that they are going to make the HHOF but better players are being left out.

 

[MXD]

As far as I'm concerned, the Sedin make it under just about every possible criteria, except maybe extreme Cup Counting, if they're being objectively assessed. However, both will be ultimately bottom-half HHOF'ers (and there's no shame in that).

 

[ToDavid]

It's not a bad idea to let the HHOF represent fans feelings to an extent.

If Canucks fans feel like the Sedins are legends then just give them the nod. Hurts no one, makes a ton of fans happy etc.

Seems good for business, you want people to care about your tourist Hall of Fame because that's what it is, a tourist attraction.

I agree. It's the Hall of Fame, if we want a list of the statistical and award leaders we can go to Hockey Reference. The novelty of them being twins who played their career together with one franchise absolutely will, and should, carry weight. And it's not like it's not close without the novelty. There are 9 players not in the Hall who have scored more than Henrik. Another four for Daniel. The vast majority of them have simply retired too recently and will likely be HoFers in time.

I have zero doubt they'll be in the hall.

 

[Rodgerwilco]

Henrik Sedin:
Top 10 points: 1/4/7/10
Top 10 goals: N/A

Daniel Sedin:
Top 10 points: 1/8
Top 10 goals: 4

If these 2 get in, then the following players should based off of similar prime seasons (not including some of the obvious choices): Benn, Kessel, Backstrom, Tavares, Getzlaf, Marchand, Staal, Kopitar, Zetterberg, Spezza, Giroux, Perry, Toews, Pavelski, Parise, Kovalchuk.

All mentioned above had equal or better records as top players in the league, sure some might not have the 1 year peak, but I'm not sure that threads the needle enough.

And then for more young players who already have more impressive point and goal finishes: Kucherov, McDavid, Seguin, Mackinnon, Matthews (if he gets a top 10 point finish this year), Draisaitl, Panarin, Pastrnak, Hall

I know the Sedins are a bit of nostalgia for a lot of people, but if the bar for getting in the hall is 1,000 points (in any amount of games), and/or a couple top 10 finishes, then WAY too many players are going to be in or close.

There are more things to factor in than how high they were in the scoring race. There are so many things to consider. You can't just point at numbers and say a player like Kessel / Benn / Parise is equivalent to the Sedins as far as HoF worthiness is concerned. It's more about hockey legacy, notoriety, and FAME which the Sedins have a ton of.

 

[Leksand]

PPG, goals and even overall points are a glaring weakness compared to some players who have been retired for longer.

I’m not saying these guys won’t get in, just that it might not be on the first go.

While voters certainly consider WAR in baseball, I don’t think voters pay much attention to WAR yet in hockey. Of course the gold counts and also helps many other players cases.

Fair enough and you may be right though it’s hard to predict - eg., was Sundin expected to be a 1st?

And on the glaring point differences, it has to be era adjusted and it’s not hard to do. If you just use some simple average adjuster or more sophisticated standard deviation it does not matter very much from what I’ve seen - the nitty gritty of the adjustment methods are dwarfed by the large variations in scoring environment across time that simply cannot be ignored IMO.

It may work against the Sedins and I don’t know what it would look like exactly and who you are referring to. If there are many players more deserving they should get in first.

 

[kingpest19]

Recchi, Oates, Andreychuck too. Just let in a lot of guys who played for 20 years and collected a lot of points but soft peaks, no hardware. Unlike these guys at least the Sedins have hardware and point totals plus a cool unique angle. Hall of fame is a joke now you get a few of these not so impressive players in, then a load of "builders" (owners putting themselves in LOL and then non-NHL players you never heard of. Who seriously cares about any of that? The place is such a mess the only reason worth going is to see the cup up close.

Oates and Sundin absolutely belong in the Hall.

Oates has more assists than the Sedins have points in roughly the same amount of games on top of being one of the best playmakers of all time. He sits 18th all time in points and 8th all time in assists.

Sundin has 564 goals in the roughly the same amount of games on top of having nearly the same amount of assists as Henrik. 23rd all time in goals and 28th all time in points and then there's his international resume.

There's a reason those guys are in the Hall without any major hardware.

 

[Leksand]

Everyone knows that they are going to make the HHOF but better players are being left out.

Just curious - who are they among currently eligible?

 

[RageQuit77]

For how difficult it is to separate them. Canucks goals they were BOTH involved by sharing points from those goals, in any of possible combinations (as Goal scorer, 1st or 2nd assisting player):

Season, shared regular season point, shared PO point

1__ 17+3
2__ 20+1
3__16+3
4__32+3
5__54
6__65+3
7__53
8__58+6
9__71+10
10_73+13
11_50+2
12_32+3
13_32
14_58+4
15_41
16_34
17_37

743+51

Regular seasons:
The Twin scored a point in 71.37% of situations where Daniel scored a point.
The Twin scored a point in 69.44% of situations where Henrik scored a point.

Playoffs:
The Twin scored a point in 71.83% of situations where Daniel scored a point.
The Twin scored a point in 65.38% of situations where Henrik scored a point.

A take to Sedinery. Everyone must dramatically speculate if looking to one without the another.

Possible errors in calculations mine. Source: Hockey-Reference scoring logs.

 

[Rodgerwilco]

I agree. It's the Hall of Fame, if we want a list of the statistical and award leaders we can go to Hockey Reference. The novelty of them being twins who played their career together with one franchise absolutely will, and should, carry weight. And it's not like it's not close without the novelty. There are 9 players not in the Hall who have scored more than Henrik. Another four for Daniel. The vast majority of them have simply retired too recently and will likely be HoFers in time.

I have zero doubt they'll be in the hall.

People forget that the Hall of FAME includes their notoriety just as much (if not more so) than numbers. One of the best set of twin athletes ever, played their entire careers in Vancouver, among the best players of their country, the only set of identical twins If they had paltry numbers I'd say that it could disqualify them. But they've had consistently solid careers, and were among the best forwards in the league (not THE best, but among the top-tier).

 

[The Macho King]

So like - I don't disagree that they shouldn't be HHOF-worthy if the HHOF inducted players in a way that didn't lead to guys like Dino Cicarelli in, but the standards - such as they are - are low enough that their resume is clearly HHOF-worthy in comparison to other inductees.

 

[RalphKing]

HHOF isn't really very elite. It's nothing like Cooperstown. They will get in for sure.

 

[CascadiaPuck]

So like - I don't disagree that they shouldn't be HHOF-worthy if the HHOF inducted players in a way that didn't lead to guys like Dino Cicarelli in, but the standards - such as they are - are low enough that their resume is clearly HHOF-worthy in comparison to other inductees.

See, I might not agree but I appreciate this post. You acknowledge where the bar lies in terms of HHOF admission. Soooo many of these threads - whether discussing the Sedins, Thornton, Alfredsson, Iginla, or anyone who isn't blindingly obvious like Jagr - just get the extremely lazy drive-by "Lol - no. Hall of 'very good' maybe." and completely ignore reality.

 

[Jumptheshark]

As an oiler fan they go in


On and off the ice they were class acts.

Too bad the hall wont open the doors for Captain Ryan Smyth

 

[The Macho King]

HHOF isn't really very elite. It's nothing like Cooperstown. They will get in for sure.

I love how elite Cooperstown is. Hockey should be that picky.

I like the Sedins. Good players, fun to watch, much tougher than they get credit for (don't have to drop the gloves to be tough). They had a nice peak that coincided with some good team success. So unlike when say... Carbonneau or Housley or Andreychuk get in, I don't look at their induction as some sort of "cheapening" of the Hall. Solid careers, good peak, some team success if no rings, some hardware, and a great story. So *when* they get in, I shouldn't expect a whole lot of reactionary takes about it. I just wish the Hall meant more.

 

[tantalum]

Whatever happened to career goals and pts?

These guys were just good players who never won a championship. Always had each other.

Not HHOF Worthy.

I'm sure someone else will bring it up given I've read what 10 posts in a 10 page thread at this point but...

It's the HOCKEY hall of fame not simply the NHL hall of fame. First point.

Second point....both are top 75 point scorers in the history of the NHL with additional significant individual NHL hardware and awards.

World Under 17 silver medal. Various bronze medals at other World tournaments. Sweden's players of the year when they led Modo to a season championship. Olympic gold medal.

They had EXCEPTIONAL hockey careers.

 

[Zanon]

The Sedins as a pair are wayyyyy more fascinating than a lot of players already belonging to the Hockey Hall of Fame. Anyone who doesn’t think they’ll get in is delusional. People seem to forget that the HoF is also a tourist attraction.

 

[Leksand]

I love how elite Cooperstown is. Hockey should be that picky.

I like the Sedins. Good players, fun to watch, much tougher than they get credit for (don't have to drop the gloves to be tough). They had a nice peak that coincided with some good team success. So unlike when say... Carbonneau or Housley or Andreychuk get in, I don't look at their induction as some sort of "cheapening" of the Hall. Solid careers, good peak, some team success if no rings, some hardware, and a great story. So *when* they get in, I shouldn't expect a whole lot of reactionary takes about it. I just wish the Hall meant more.

I have a lot of sympathy for this view. It’s a little bit like if you have to start looking at stats and other facts when a name is proposed - well there you have it: not Hall of Fame material.

One question though - if it would be done like that, would the actual museum be lacking? E.g., in this specific case - don’t you wanna have the twins story there? But I guess, thinking about, that would probably be an ultimately bad criteria - honoring uniqueness over accomplishment sometimes.

 

[The Macho King]

I have a lot of sympathy for this view. It’s a little bit like if you have to start looking at stats and other facts when a name is proposed - well there you have it: not Hall of Fame material.

One question though - if it would be done like that, would the actual museum be lacking? E.g., in this specific case - don’t you wanna have the twins story there? But I guess, thinking about, that would probably be an ultimately bad criteria - honoring uniqueness over accomplishment sometimes.

You can honor Sittler's 10 point game without putting Sittler in the HHOF. You can tell stories about the Miracle on Ice without having Jim Craig as an inductee. I haven't physically been to the Hall - but generally I think you can tell the stories and honor the cool things that happened, and then separate that from the honored members.

 

[KevinRedkey]

Only 3 eligible players have won the Hart trophy, and not gotten in the the HHoF.

Tommy Anderson who only played 319 NHL games. Al Rollins and Jose Theodore who were both goalies.

The Sedin's had great overall careers and peaked high enough to get in IMO.

 

[TheOtherOne]

I don't see why you need to ignore the fact that they're twins. That's a unique and interesting aspect that can make up for whatever they lack in stats.

 

[Scygen]

Yes. Bure was a HHOF talent. Sedins weren't. Marginally better than Trevor Linden. Doesn't get you into the HHOF.

you're embarrassing Flames fans everywhere.
The Sedins will you definitely make the HOF

 

[MXD]

I was about to say that an application of the Keltner's list translated to hockey would be nice, so I typed Keltner hfboards and ended up with the cases of Grant Fuhr and Chris Osgood vs. The List. Made by, well, me. I'm not the source of the translation and I can't quite remember who came up with it (though I have some couple of candidates in mind)

Ken Keltner and Chris Osgood

The Keltner List, translated to hockey, applied to Henrik Sedin to make things easier

1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in hockey? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in hockey?

He won the Hart award, and while I don't think anyone saw him as ultimately better than Sidney Crosby and Alex Ovechkin, it's pretty safe to say the Hart award suggests that he was the best player in the NHL that season. It was also when there was no goalie at the top of the world, like Hasek was in the late 90ies, and when Niklas Lidstrom had arguably his best days behind him.


2. Was he the best player on his team?

Yes (and if he wasn't, it was Daniel)

3. Was he the best player in hockey at his position? Was he the best player in his conference at his position?

Two straight AS-1 suggests that he was at least the 2nd best Center for a while, in the context where Sidney Crosby might have lost AS-1 due to injuries. For most of NHL's history, the best Center at a given moment was INFERIOR to Crosby. Big plus for Sedin as far as I'm concerned. You can go both ways, but it's certainly favorable to Sedin.

4. Did he have an impact on a number of playoff races?

You can't really NOT have an impact when you're the leading scorer of your team that went to the SCF, but Sedin was part of a franchise that probably ended up underachieving as a whole during his tenure, and as the best player of a team, are you really making a difference if your team is underachieveing? Underwhelming

5. Was he a good enough player that he could continue to play regularly after passing his prime?

His last prime season was... what, 2012-2013? So yeah, obviously.

6. Is he the very best player in hockey history who is not in the Hall of Fame?

Amongst eligibles? I don't quite think so, but it can probably argued. It doesn't weight much since there can be up to 4 players enshrined a year.

7. Are most players who have comparable career statistics in the Hall of Fame?

There are forwards who played in higher scoring eras who are in with worse numbers. PPG isn't that great, but that's mostly on the back of a few non-productive years, and cutting them entirely of his resume doesn't give him bad longevity or anything (in fact, he'd still have more games than someone like Theoren Fleury or Martin St-Louis). His adjusted numbers are inferior to the somewhat comparable Adam Oates. They're all in all better than Bernie Federko, also somewhat comparable. It's a closer call with Denis Savard. His numbers are better than Henrik Zetterberg and Vincent Lecavalier (the first being almost certainly a future HHOF, the second being almost certainly not). Also better than Brad Richards. It's probably a yes, BUT...

8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?

240 goals is EXTREMELY low for a modern forward. He doesn't even appear in the hockey-reference lists (which stops at 250th, a rank shared with Shayne Corson, Ryan Getzlaf and Al Secord, with 273 goals). This is a lesser amount than quite a few D-Men (on top of my head : Bourque, MAcinnis, Coffey, Murphy and almost certainly Brian Leetch) and than Red Kelly (!). It's the same amount as Rob Blake. The only post O-6 forward in with less than 240 goals is Bob Gainey, a defensive forward with a Conn Smythe and four Selkes. If you're a "modern" forward and your Goal Total is inferior to Bob Gainey's Goal Toal + Selkes, I'd say you're missing something. Missing in one rather important aspect.



9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?

...Heh, extreme compatibiliy with Daniel hints at "worse", but he also made Alex Burrows a 35 goal scorer. He's better than his PPG indicates, and he's otherwise not worse; probably actually a bit better. But he's not better than his numbers would indicate the way someone like Anze Kopitar is. Meh.

10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame but not in?

Amongst Eligibles? I have to be convinced he isn't, because I think he is (of course, Crosby, Malkin and Thornton are better, but they're not eligible. Let's ignore Zetterberg.). YES unless I missed someone obvious.

11. How many Hart-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an Hart Trophy? If not, how many times was he close?

One (10-11 wasn't bad, but that would've been a very weak Hart). Yes. Well, there's 10-11, but that's an awful answer. Neutral.

12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the other players who played in this many go to the Hall of Fame?

The All-Star Game translates badly, so I'll go for the All Star Team (which is probably a bit stricter than baseball)

Two AS-1 : 2009-10 and 2010-11

Those are C All-Star team, that are typically "harder" to obtain than W All-Star Team.

All Centers with two First All Star Team berths are in the Hall of Fame, and you have Centers with zero or one berth, or a lesser combination of berths than AS1+AS1, that made it (and that will make it). Sedin's compatriots Sundin and Zetterberg come to mind. Easy Yes.

13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win their conference?

It actually happened. Obvious Yes.

14. What impact did the player have on hockey history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?

He and his brother Daniel were the masters of cycling, which became a go-to OZ Strategy. Oh, and he played with his twin. On the same Line. On the same team. For their whole careers. Very Easy Yes

15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?

Well, he has two Clancys, so.... Easy Yes.

 

[Dekes For Days]

The Sedins in 09-10 were unreal, and put up one of the best ES seasons in the cap era.

They were great players, and deserve to be in the HHOF.

 

[EdJovanovski]

Agreed.

 

[Raistlin]

I was about to say that an application of the Keltner's list translated to hockey would be nice, so I typed Keltner hfboards and ended up with the cases of Grant Fuhr and Chris Osgood vs. The List. Made by, well, me. I'm not the source of the translation and I can't quite remember who came up with it (though I have some couple of candidates in mind)

Ken Keltner and Chris Osgood

The Keltner List, translated to hockey, applied to Henrik Sedin to make things easier

1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in hockey? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in hockey?

He won the Hart award, and while I don't think anyone saw him as ultimately better than Sidney Crosby and Alex Ovechkin, it's pretty safe to say the Hart award suggests that he was the best player in the NHL that season. It was also when there was no goalie at the top of the world, like Hasek was in the late 90ies, and when Niklas Lidstrom had arguably his best days behind him.


2. Was he the best player on his team?

Yes (and if he wasn't, it was Daniel)

3. Was he the best player in hockey at his position? Was he the best player in his conference at his position?

Two straight AS-1 suggests that he was at least the 2nd best Center for a while, in the context where Sidney Crosby might have lost AS-1 due to injuries. For most of NHL's history, the best Center at a given moment was INFERIOR to Crosby. Big plus for Sedin as far as I'm concerned. You can go both ways, but it's certainly favorable to Sedin.

4. Did he have an impact on a number of playoff races?

You can't really NOT have an impact when you're the leading scorer of your team that went to the SCF, but Sedin was part of a franchise that probably ended up underachieving as a whole during his tenure, and as the best player of a team, are you really making a difference if your team is underachieveing? Underwhelming

5. Was he a good enough player that he could continue to play regularly after passing his prime?

His last prime season was... what, 2012-2013? So yeah, obviously.

6. Is he the very best player in hockey history who is not in the Hall of Fame?

Amongst eligibles? I don't quite think so, but it can probably argued. It doesn't weight much since there can be up to 4 players enshrined a year.

7. Are most players who have comparable career statistics in the Hall of Fame?

There are forwards who played in higher scoring eras who are in with worse numbers. PPG isn't that great, but that's mostly on the back of a few non-productive years, and cutting them entirely of his resume doesn't give him bad longevity or anything (in fact, he'd still have more games than someone like Theoren Fleury or Martin St-Louis). His adjusted numbers are inferior to the somewhat comparable Adam Oates. They're all in all better than Bernie Federko, also somewhat comparable. It's a closer call with Denis Savard. His numbers are better than Henrik Zetterberg and Vincent Lecavalier (the first being almost certainly a future HHOF, the second being almost certainly not). Also better than Brad Richards. It's probably a yes, BUT...

8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?

240 goals is EXTREMELY low for a modern forward. He doesn't even appear in the hockey-reference lists (which stops at 250th, a rank shared with Shayne Corson, Ryan Getzlaf and Al Secord, with 273 goals). This is a lesser amount than quite a few D-Men (on top of my head : Bourque, MAcinnis, Coffey, Murphy and almost certainly Brian Leetch) and than Red Kelly (!). It's the same amount as Rob Blake. The only post O-6 forward in with less than 240 goals is Bob Gainey, a defensive forward with a Conn Smythe and four Selkes. If you're a "modern" forward and your Goal Total is inferior to Bob Gainey's Goal Toal + Selkes, I'd say you're missing something. Missing in one rather important aspect.



9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?

...Heh, extreme compatibiliy with Daniel hints at "worse", but he also made Alex Burrows a 35 goal scorer. He's better than his PPG indicates, and he's otherwise not worse; probably actually a bit better. But he's not better than his numbers would indicate the way someone like Anze Kopitar is. Meh.

10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame but not in?

Amongst Eligibles? I have to be convinced he isn't, because I think he is (of course, Crosby, Malkin and Thornton are better, but they're not eligible. Let's ignore Zetterberg.). YES unless I missed someone obvious.

11. How many Hart-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an Hart Trophy? If not, how many times was he close?

One (10-11 wasn't bad, but that would've been a very weak Hart). Yes. Well, there's 10-11, but that's an awful answer. Neutral.

12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the other players who played in this many go to the Hall of Fame?

The All-Star Game translates badly, so I'll go for the All Star Team (which is probably a bit stricter than baseball)

Two AS-1 : 2009-10 and 2010-11

Those are C All-Star team, that are typically "harder" to obtain than W All-Star Team.

All Centers with two First All Star Team berths are in the Hall of Fame, and you have Centers with zero or one berth, or a lesser combination of berths than AS1+AS1, that made it (and that will make it). Sedin's compatriots Sundin and Zetterberg come to mind. Easy Yes.

13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win their conference?

It actually happened. Obvious Yes.

14. What impact did the player have on hockey history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?

He and his brother Daniel were the masters of cycling, which became a go-to OZ Strategy. Oh, and he played with his twin. On the same Line. On the same team. For their whole careers. Very Easy Yes

15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?

Well, he has two Clancys, so.... Easy Yes.

They are in without a doubt in my mind. But great job breaking it down for the fence sitting crowd.