The Sedins Were Stars at Best Who had Each Other. Not HHOF Worthy.

[izzy]

If emotion would be not wanting good players who were boring to watch and who got un-HHOF numbers, sign me up.

Also, they retired semi-early after getting juicy contracts to finish their careers with. Must be nice to be so celebrated for meh careers.

boring to watch

interesting thing to say about one of the most unique and effective duos in recent nhl

i could see you not liking them or thinking they arent hhof worthy but boring to watch? lmao

 

[Leksand]

I was about to say that an application of the Keltner's list translated to hockey would be nice, so I typed Keltner hfboards and ended up with the cases of Grant Fuhr and Chris Osgood vs. The List. Made by, well, me. I'm not the source of the translation and I can't quite remember who came up with it (though I have some couple of candidates in mind)

Ken Keltner and Chris Osgood

The Keltner List, translated to hockey, applied to Henrik Sedin to make things easier

1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in hockey? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in hockey?

He won the Hart award, and while I don't think anyone saw him as ultimately better than Sidney Crosby and Alex Ovechkin, it's pretty safe to say the Hart award suggests that he was the best player in the NHL that season. It was also when there was no goalie at the top of the world, like Hasek was in the late 90ies, and when Niklas Lidstrom had arguably his best days behind him.


2. Was he the best player on his team?

Yes (and if he wasn't, it was Daniel)

3. Was he the best player in hockey at his position? Was he the best player in his conference at his position?

Two straight AS-1 suggests that he was at least the 2nd best Center for a while, in the context where Sidney Crosby might have lost AS-1 due to injuries. For most of NHL's history, the best Center at a given moment was INFERIOR to Crosby. Big plus for Sedin as far as I'm concerned. You can go both ways, but it's certainly favorable to Sedin.

4. Did he have an impact on a number of playoff races?

You can't really NOT have an impact when you're the leading scorer of your team that went to the SCF, but Sedin was part of a franchise that probably ended up underachieving as a whole during his tenure, and as the best player of a team, are you really making a difference if your team is underachieveing? Underwhelming

5. Was he a good enough player that he could continue to play regularly after passing his prime?

His last prime season was... what, 2012-2013? So yeah, obviously.

6. Is he the very best player in hockey history who is not in the Hall of Fame?

Amongst eligibles? I don't quite think so, but it can probably argued. It doesn't weight much since there can be up to 4 players enshrined a year.

7. Are most players who have comparable career statistics in the Hall of Fame?

There are forwards who played in higher scoring eras who are in with worse numbers. PPG isn't that great, but that's mostly on the back of a few non-productive years, and cutting them entirely of his resume doesn't give him bad longevity or anything (in fact, he'd still have more games than someone like Theoren Fleury or Martin St-Louis). His adjusted numbers are inferior to the somewhat comparable Adam Oates. They're all in all better than Bernie Federko, also somewhat comparable. It's a closer call with Denis Savard. His numbers are better than Henrik Zetterberg and Vincent Lecavalier (the first being almost certainly a future HHOF, the second being almost certainly not). Also better than Brad Richards. It's probably a yes, BUT...

8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?

240 goals is EXTREMELY low for a modern forward. He doesn't even appear in the hockey-reference lists (which stops at 250th, a rank shared with Shayne Corson, Ryan Getzlaf and Al Secord, with 273 goals). This is a lesser amount than quite a few D-Men (on top of my head : Bourque, MAcinnis, Coffey, Murphy and almost certainly Brian Leetch) and than Red Kelly (!). It's the same amount as Rob Blake. The only post O-6 forward in with less than 240 goals is Bob Gainey, a defensive forward with a Conn Smythe and four Selkes. If you're a "modern" forward and your Goal Total is inferior to Bob Gainey's Goal Toal + Selkes, I'd say you're missing something. Missing in one rather important aspect.



9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?

...Heh, extreme compatibiliy with Daniel hints at "worse", but he also made Alex Burrows a 35 goal scorer. He's better than his PPG indicates, and he's otherwise not worse; probably actually a bit better. But he's not better than his numbers would indicate the way someone like Anze Kopitar is. Meh.

10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame but not in?

Amongst Eligibles? I have to be convinced he isn't, because I think he is (of course, Crosby, Malkin and Thornton are better, but they're not eligible. Let's ignore Zetterberg.). YES unless I missed someone obvious.

11. How many Hart-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an Hart Trophy? If not, how many times was he close?

One (10-11 wasn't bad, but that would've been a very weak Hart). Yes. Well, there's 10-11, but that's an awful answer. Neutral.

12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the other players who played in this many go to the Hall of Fame?

The All-Star Game translates badly, so I'll go for the All Star Team (which is probably a bit stricter than baseball)

Two AS-1 : 2009-10 and 2010-11

Those are C All-Star team, that are typically "harder" to obtain than W All-Star Team.

All Centers with two First All Star Team berths are in the Hall of Fame, and you have Centers with zero or one berth, or a lesser combination of berths than AS1+AS1, that made it (and that will make it). Sedin's compatriots Sundin and Zetterberg come to mind. Easy Yes.

13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win their conference?

It actually happened. Obvious Yes.

14. What impact did the player have on hockey history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?

He and his brother Daniel were the masters of cycling, which became a go-to OZ Strategy. Oh, and he played with his twin. On the same Line. On the same team. For their whole careers. Very Easy Yes

15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?

Well, he has two Clancys, so.... Easy Yes.

Very good post.

One comments “Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?” must consider era adjusted numbers (and I don’t know if that helps or diminish the Sedin case.)

 

[WiLBoY]

Maybe not first ballot but for sure in.

 

[MXD]

Very good post.

One comments “Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?” must consider era adjusted numbers (and I don’t know if that helps or diminish the Sedin case.)

... Or at least compared to contemporaries with a reasonable chance to make it or otherwise a lock. Sedin is very likely to end up with less goals than... Shea Weber.

 

[mc1laren]

This is one of the more decent responses so far.

But what you're describing to me is why a Theo Fleury definitely should have gotten in already. Not likeable to many fanbases because he'd do anything to win and would play on such an edge that his career had all sorts of context (not to mention being a tiny player who overcame youth poverty, tons of sexual abuse and every sort of odds imaginable). Yes the duo factor, twins is some context for the Sedins. But that's all there is to me. Everything else is them just being super nice guys and pretty good hockey players. A couple of great years.

Theo is that you?

 

[crazychimp]

I think OP is on something, your argument makes no sense.

 

[PensandCaps]

idiotic thread

 

[mc1laren]

Especially in 2015 lol.

All jokes aside, Sedins are HOF worthy imo.Reputation will play a factor, but they both had really impressive peaks. The whole brotherly thing will help as well. Doubt we'll ever see a duo like them again.

Also, Theo should be in the HOF and have his # retired by the Flames as well.

They could have won nothing as far as hardware goes but the bolded alone makes them HHOF worthy. Its very likely we will never ever see a duo like them again. The years they were dominant, they influenced the game to such a degree that you now regularly see plays they popularized as successful strategies. They re-engineered/revolutionized the cycle game. The 30 ft deflections, slap passes, and banks of the end boards. The creativity, the imagination and the eerie telepathy like chemistry gets them in without even looking at stats and hardware. The OP is so butt hurt with Theo he doesn't seem to realize their contributions to the game.

Btw, met Theo's first ex wife. She was in Vancouver for a dental thing. Said he was an asshole and then proceeded to make out with a friend of mine at Black & Blue.

 

[ICanMotteBelieveIt]

This league supposedly had a standard of 500 goals for most who played over the last 30 years. Sedins are nowhere close. Stanley Cups were a significant notch on the belt unless you're an Iginla or Thornton.

393 goals and 240 goals.

Nope, doesn't cut it.

Damn, I wonder if any defenseman will score 500 goals... Poor bastards will never make it into the HOF.

 

[Tralfamadore]

I think the twin factor will get them into the HoF but if they existed individually they wouldn't make it in imo.

 

[ZDH]

I think the twin factor will get them into the HoF but if they existed individually they wouldn't make it in imo.

So do the standards drop even more for triplets?

Being twins/brothers/related shouldnt have any bearing at all imo.

 

[crazychimp]

Forget about the trophies these two have won, for me these two changed the way the game is played today. Before them - the board battles the cycling of the puck there was none of that to that intensity. Anytime you change the way the game is played to me that's HOF worthy.

 

[MikeK]

They were 2 of the top point producers of their generation. Not many other players consistently put up the amount of points these two did. They are HHoFers for the same reason most here believe Lundqvist is a HHoFer. They were among the very best of their generation consistently year in and year out. Agree or disagree, I don't really care. They should all be in the Hall.

 

[bossram]

That might be a bit of a pissy sounding title, but listening to Vancouver sports radio over the last few days and there's this local feeling (and growing support league-wide) that these guys should get in the HHOF.

No bloody way.

If these two get in, give Theo Fleury two spots.

This is all BS politics.

Did I like these guys? Sure. Were they classy? Sure. Were they skilled? Yes. Were they superstars? Hell no. Anyone with a brain and saw them regularly saw them as good players, brothers who had each other for support the whole time they played, never won a cup, and were never that exciting to watch. Their stats don't warrant them being in.

Daniel Sedin had 1041 pts in 1306 games for .79 ppg. Finished with 393 goals. Had a Hart Trophy and Lindsey Trophy in 10/11 but that was with 41 goals, 104 pts in a year where Crosby was injured and only played 41 games. No Stanley Cups.

Henrik Sedin had 1070 pts in 1330 games for a .80 ppg. He won the Hart and Art Ross in 09/10 sure, with 29 goals. Finished his career with only 240 goals. No Stanley Cups.

Those are NOT Hockey Hall of Fame numbers, by either of them. I can remember all of about 2 plays by the Sedins. There are some damn questionable HHOF inclusions but the Sedins would be at or near the top IMO. I'd look to watch a Stamkos game and of course an Ovechkin or Crosby game. Never ever a Sedin game.

.

You must've watched all of zero Canucks games when the Sedins were in their primes then. They assuredly were superstars in their primes. They're incredibly unique players. And they've made hundreds of nigh-unbelievable plays, carving opposing defenses. And with some actual attention to watching them play, you would pick up the subtleties to their games too: the picks, casual no-look passes, body positioning, putting pucks in areas where no is at that time, etc.

If you want to make the statistical argument they shouldn't get in, that's fair. I think their numbers are borderline too. IMO I think just their unique style of play, unique stories (obviously), and community work will help them get in eventually. But I get that their peaks weren't as long as many others in the Hall.

But to say they were boring players....You must not have eyes. Sedin week has been great in Vancouver, getting to re-watch all the amazing plays they've made. And that we'll never see players like that again.

 

[Retire91]

I think its worth being in the hall of fame purely on the uniqueness of their career. You'll never again see Hart caliber identical twin brothers play on the same team. That is worth a mural on the wall of the HOF.

 

[MXD]

If you want to make the statistical argument they shouldn't get in, that's fair. I think their numbers are borderline too. IMO I think just their unique style of play, unique stories (obviously), and community work will help them get in eventually. But I get that their peaks weren't as long as many others in the Hall.

And then you realize that both have more RS points than contemporary offensive forward Martin St-Louis who made it at the first opportunity (with cause, I might add).

 

[Rangediddy]

I came in here to say what an awful take this thread was... but without reading many posts, I did rethink it.

The Sedins together were beauty in motion. What they could do was insane and that puts them in the HoF.

They didn't spend enough time playing on their own so any argument as to what they could have accomplished if they played on separate teams is just pointless arguing. No way to tell. It'd be like arguing Messier couldn't do anything without Jagr. There's no point in trying to separate all the reasons why great players are great until you're left with reasons why a player isn't great.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

brothers who had each other for support the whole time they played,
(Crosby had Malkin to take pressure off him, Crosby is not a HHOFer. Maurice and Henri Richard just leaned on each other and stacked Habs teams. Sham HHOFers.)

never won a cup
(No one has ever been a HHOFer without a cup, right?),

and were never that exciting to watch
(This just in, new criteria for HHOF entry. Some randomly selected fan with no expertise has to deem you exciting in order to become a HHOFer).

Their stats don't warrant them being in.
(only 90 people have ever gotten over 1000 points in their NHL career. 21 of them are not in the HHOF. 69 of them are.)

Daniel Sedin ..had a Hart Trophy and Lindsey Trophy in 10/11 but that was with 41 goals, 104 pts in a year where Crosby was injured and only played 41 games
(That loser Hobey Baker played ok but Crosby didn't even exist yet. Ditto for Gretzky. Without Crosby playing at the time all Hart wins are a sham.).

Henrik Sedin had 1070 pts in 1330 games for a .80 ppg. He won the Hart and Art Ross in 09/10 sure, with 29 goals
(Goals are the only metric that matter. Just ask all the experts who voted H. Sedin the MVP of the entire league when he only had 29 pathetic goals, HA).

Those are NOT Hockey Hall of Fame numbers, by either of them

(By some arbitrary metric that is not explained).

This would have made the "terrible HF argument" Hall of fame but it didnt discuss goals enough

 

[RageQuit77]

Probably my last post in this thread tonight.

To that chemistry of the twins. I think that even those who oppose their inclusion to HHOF agree that their chemistry was extraordinary, but if we try search any kind "normalized" measure of one player's impact to another within the same lineup (as minimum relevant scope of perception), no duo ever in the entire hockey history has produced more convincing statistics about that. Full 1000GP+, 1000Pts+ careers as top level hockey players, where all performance impacting factors are reduced to minimum. Same genes, same family environment, same social growing environment, same junior teams, same draft, same mentors, same coaches, same teams, same linemates, same hobbies, same, same, same... as closely as possible for two different individuals playing hockey. Other was center, and other was winger. That's the meaning of 6 minutes difference in ages. What they did as the duo is as pure from all kinds haze as possible that their case works as the measuring stick for evaluations of all past and future hockey duos. They actually compiled also one of the most perfect statistical, and verifiable case study about the identical twins for general purposes of study of the topic, and not only including their hockey careers.

Everyone knows all kinds tales and anecdotes how Identical twins often have allegedly kind of special connection between each other, they both also often acknowledge and verify themselves. When people watch them playing some hockey they can acknowledge and verify that too.

No hard evidence for this but I assume that if 3rd assists would be counted, they would've been directly involved to each others career points at level approximately in 75-80% of cases. Statistically verifiable number with G, 1A, 2A is around 70% for both of them for their career points. That's insane. Chemistry we see on ice by eye test is measurable directly from their basic hockey stats, and that can be done more "cleaner" from all skewing random factors for them than for anyone else, ever.

Good night. Happy pre-inclusion retirement years to Henrik and Daniel.

 

[filinski77]

There are more things to factor in than how high they were in the scoring race. There are so many things to consider. You can't just point at numbers and say a player like Kessel / Benn / Parise is equivalent to the Sedins as far as HoF worthiness is concerned. It's more about hockey legacy, notoriety, and FAME which the Sedins have a ton of.

Legends of Hockey - Induction Showcase - Election Procedures

Playing ability, sportsmanship, character and contributions to his or her team or teams and to the game of hockey in general.

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Does not appear that Fame or notoriety are criteria.

As far as playing ability, the Sedins do not separate themselves from the large list I provided earlier. And who the hell are we to judge sportsmanship, character or contributions of them, compared to the rest of the list I made? Fame does not appear to mean much. Paul Bissonnette may have some of the most 'fame', and contributions to hockey than anyone lately, doesn't mean he should get in (I realize his playing ability was null)

Considering that playing ability is the main criteria to get in, I just don't see how people liking the Sedins makes them HOF worthy. I can admit that I think they 'will' make it. But when they do, they will instantly be on the list of people I don't think should be there.

 

[super6646]

They could have won nothing as far as hardware goes but the bolded alone makes them HHOF worthy. Its very likely we will never ever see a duo like them again. The years they were dominant, they influenced the game to such a degree that you now regularly see plays they popularized as successful strategies. They re-engineered/revolutionized the cycle game. The 30 ft deflections, slap passes, and banks of the end boards. The creativity, the imagination and the eerie telepathy like chemistry gets them in without even looking at stats and hardware. The OP is so butt hurt with Theo he doesn't seem to realize their contributions to the game.

Btw, met Theo's first ex wife. She was in Vancouver for a dental thing. Said he was an ******* and then proceeded to make out with a friend of mine at Black & Blue.

Wtf

 

[YEM]

I loved them as players but don't think they're HOF'ers either

 

[AvroArrow]

As Jeremy Roenick would say "what a joke"

 

[LeftHeartInSF]

If you combine them you get a HoF player.

 

[Tempo]

In OP’s defense, I would be mad AF too if I have to endure 17yrs of Sedins walking all over my team.