Salary Cap: The Salary Cap Thread | Countdown to Camp

[Ogrezilla]

I agree. That's why I don't like the Dumo contract.

I'm fine having one player like that locked up long term, but they both can struggle pretty mightly and it is hard to say if they are simply good on their own, or good because of their partners.

I think both of them are replaceable if you find the right deal.

You realize Dumo's partner was Ron Hainsey these playoffs, right? You're not suggesting that Ron Hainsey made Dumoulin look good, are you? You can't be.

 

[Jenkins]

I think Maatta being the defensedefensedefense guy on a pairing hurts his overall game and it does waste offensive potential. He can do it but it diminishes him as a player and he's better when he's engaging offensively. It also seems good for his confidence when he's producing. If anything the coaching staff should get on his case about going too defense first.

Dumoulin can be that defensive defenseman without it hurting him.




Yeah, and one of the defensemen or a staple PKer at forward is probably like "I DON'T WANT TO BLOCK EXTRA SHOTS!!!!" Or Phil is having nightmares about being sent out on the PK.

I think the coaches got him to be a defense first player after his poor 15-16. Concentrate on that first and get back in form. Which he did and he started looking more engaged in attack later in the season. He got injured which didn't help though but expect more of that this season, wherever he plays

 

[Gurglesons]

You realize Dumo's partner was Ron Hainsey these playoffs, right? You're not suggesting that Ron Hainsey made Dumoulin look good, are you? You can't be.

I don't think the Dumo - Hainsey pairing looked good and I'm not so bent on making Hainsey seem like a joke that I'm going to put that all on Hainsey.

Dumo looked atrocious at various times this year especially in the playoffs. For the majority of the Jackets, Capitals, and Sens series, Maatta was clearly the better defenseman. Dumo and Hainsey really dominated the Nash series which makes sense because Nash had basically one good line and lost the pivot to it.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I don't think the Dumo - Hainsey pairing looked good and I'm not so bent on making Hainsey seem like a joke that I'm going to put that all on Hainsey.

Dumo looked atrocious at various times this year especially in the playoffs. For the majority of the Jackets, Capitals, and Sens series, Maatta was clearly the better defenseman. Dumo and Hainsey really dominated the Nash series which makes sense because Nash had basically one good line and lost the pivot to it.

Dumoulin was easily our best d-man these playoffs.

 

[Gurglesons]

Who do we have now on the pk now with Bonino and Cullen gone? Dumo, Cole, Hags. Kuhn, if he makes the team. Rusty? Anyone else? Rowney? That's plenty

Right now I'd assume Hags, Rowney, Rust, Kuhn, whoever they ice as the 3rd/4th C in McClement, TB, and occasionally Crosby depending on the draw. Defense wise, Letang, Cole, Maatta, Dumo with Hunwick thrown in if they actually decide to cut back Letang's minutes.

 

[Gurglesons]

Dumoulin was easily our best d-man these playoffs.

Eh. Most consistent I'd go with Cole. Highest peak I'd go with Maatta. Most offensive I'd go with Schultz. Playing the most minutes you can go with Dumo.

 

[Jenkins]

Who do we have now on the pk now with Bonino and Cullen gone? Dumo, Cole, Hags. Kuhn, if he makes the team. Rusty? Anyone else? Rowney? That's plenty

Yeah those are the forwards and Maatta and Hunwick most likely the other two main D guys.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Eh. Most consistent I'd go with Cole. Highest peak I'd go with Maatta. Most offensive I'd go with Schultz. Playing the most minutes you can go with Dumo.

Dumo is better than Cole about 24 games out of every 25.

I'll give you Maatta for the peak, he was really good some of the time. That said, he also had lower lows than Dumo by quite a bit imo.

 

[Gurglesons]

Dumo is better than Cole about 49 games out of every 50 or so. I'll give you Maatta for the peak, he was really good some of the time. That said, he also had lower lows than Dumo by quite a bit imo.

I agree with all of those statements.

I would put it this way.

I literally don't remember Dumo doing anything in a single game besides the game winner in Game 4 against the Sens which was going wide until Phaneuf guided it in.

I guess if that is your definition of "best D" then that's fine and I get it he was playing big defensive minutes, but often times his game is pretty forgettable and last year especially him and Hainsey got hemmed in the zone a lot. A lot of that was on Hainsey, but they were atrocious statistically.

If you're going to be that pathetic in terms of generating shots and possession, you better at least have some memorable defensive plays.

Once again, coming from someone with a Dumo jersey. I love the kid, let's just not sell him to be something more than on his best days a #3.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Maatta was better than Dumo these playoffs?

Well, the time out of The Twilight Zone was nice while it lasted.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I agree with all of those statements.

I would put it this way.

I literally don't remember Dumo doing anything in a single game besides the game winner in Game 4 against the Sens which was going wide until Phaneuf guided it in.

I guess if that is your definition of "best D" then that's fine and I get it he was playing big defensive minutes, but often times his game is pretty forgettable and last year especially him and Hainsey got hemmed in the zone a lot. A lot of that was on Hainsey, but they were atrocious statistically.

but they were still good enough to be the top pairing (yes I know it's not by much) for the stanley cup winner. That makes twice in a row for Dumo. He's a steady defensive number 2. He shouldn't be forced to be a number 1, he just isn't that guy. Maatta is probably better at running his own pairing in terms of moving the puck, that I'll give him. But he's worse as the defensive guy on a line. So imo that makes him a worse fit with both Letang and Schultz in our top 4. And despite being better than Cole, I think Cole is a better partner with Schultz than Maatta. I guess that's my biggest issue with Maatta; he isn't a great fit with our top d-men. His offense is what could let him be better than Dumo, but playing with Schultz or Letang he really can't show it. If he has to be the defensive guy on his line, he has to play so cautiously because of his skating that he can't actually get into the play a lot of the time. The tools are there to be great, but he needs to improve his skating to use them properly imo.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

I think the coaches got him to be a defense first player after his poor 15-16. Concentrate on that first and get back in form. Which he did and he started looking more engaged in attack later in the season. He got injured which didn't help though but expect more of that this season, wherever he plays

All Pens simply exist between injuries. For Maatta I predict much improved skating met with a knee injury from another Pen colliding with him. Somehow Letang gets a sympathy knee injury.

But in all seriousness, if the coaching staff got him to be so defensive I think it was a mistake. He started to get back in form when he started getting involved in the offense again. His best of 15-16 was after he was a healthy scratch in the playoffs and got paired with Lovejoy when he got to be the offensive driver on the pairing. The guy just doesn't look like he responds well to being defense first all the time.

He's capable of being good defensively and being good offensively, he's just got to go through refining when to pick his spots. His defensive game may have improved over the season but it came at the price of him looking like a player afraid to get burned for most of the season. Maybe it's good in the long run but in the short term it looked like a relatively young player with their confidence taking blows.

Dumo is better than Cole about 24 games out of every 25.

I'll give you Maatta for the peak, he was really good some of the time. That said, he also had lower lows than Dumo by quite a bit imo.

Overall I think I'd give it to Dumoulin but not by far. He was probably the steadiest and got to cart Hainsey around. If anything I think they got by with a certain ebb and flow to which D were performing the best.

It will be an interesting run to look back on because it's probably going to be a lot of the team being on the cusp of disaster with someone finding another gear for just long enough.

 

[Gurglesons]

but they were still good enough to be the top pairing (yes I know it's not by much) for the stanley cup winner. That makes twice in a row for Dumo. He's a steady defensive number 2. He shouldn't be forced to be a number 1, he just isn't that guy. Maatta is probably better at running his own pairing in terms of moving the puck, that I'll give him. But he's worse as the defensive guy on a line. So imo that makes him a worse fit with both Letang and Schultz in our top 4. And despite being better than Cole, I think Cole is a better partner with Schultz than Maatta. I guess that's my biggest issue with Maatta; he isn't a great fit with our top d-men. His offense is what could let him be better than Dumo, but playing with Schultz or Letang he really can't show it. If he has to be the defensive guy on his line, he has to play so cautiously because of his skating that he can't actually get into the play a lot of the time.

If I'm doing our d pairings for next year I go

Dumo - Letang
Cole - Schultz
Maatta - Hunwick

So, I guess I agree completely outside of the fact that I don't think Dumo can carry a pairing and I think a lot of people are glossing over that by simply saying Hainsey, Hainsey Hainsey. Daley would've been our number 2 if it wasn't for his injury in 15-16 and I think that says a lot about our system.

 

[Ogrezilla]

If I'm doing our d pairings for next year I go

Dumo - Letang
Cole - Schultz
Maatta - Hunwick

agreed. And I'm hopeful that Maatta will be better in that situation. Like I said, he has the tools to be great if he can be in the right situation and work on his skating just a bit. Just last year he was forced into a worse spot for what he does a lot of the time (so did everyone on our D honestly). Like in 2016 when he looked rough, got scratched, Daley got hurt, then Maatta came back and played with Lovejoy. I don't think that's a coincidence that he looked better with Lovejoy than Daley.

 

[Gurglesons]

agreed. And I'm hopeful that Maatta will be better in that situation. Like I said, he has the tools to be great if he can be in the right situation and work on his skating just a bit. Just last year he was forced into a worse spot for what he does a lot of the time (so did everyone on our D honestly). Like in 2016 when he looked rough, got scratched, Daley got hurt, then Maatta came back and played with Lovejoy. I don't think that's a coincidence that he looked better with Lovejoy than Daley.

I honestly think Hunwick is going to look like a less offensive Daley from what I've seen from him with the Rags, Boston and Leafs. So I imagine Maatta will have his issues again.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I honestly think Hunwick is going to look like a less offensive Daley from what I've seen from him with the Rags, Boston and Leafs. So I imagine Maatta will have his issues again.

I expect him to play safer defensively. He may not be all that much better, but he'll likely do a lot less pinching and skating the puck into the o-zone. Those were the situations that left Maatta in positions I don't like him in, and I think they'll happen less with Hunwick.

 

[Gurglesons]

I expect him to play safer defensively. He may not be all that much better, but he'll likely do a lot less pinching and skating the puck into the o-zone. Those were the situations that left Maatta in positions I don't like him in, and I think they'll happen less with Hunwick.

All I know is if Schultz decides last year was an anomaly our most expensive D in the league is going to ****ing blow.

 

[Andy99]

I expect him to play safer defensively. He may not be all that much better, but he'll likely do a lot less pinching and skating the puck into the o-zone. Those were the situations that left Maatta in positions I don't like him in, and I think they'll happen less with Hunwick.

Actually, I expect the opposite. I think Maatta's best game will be playing with Hunwick rather than a more offensive player who will force him into a more defensive role. Hunwick hopefully skates better and can be the player who gets back into his end first to defend and allow Maatta to pinch more and play a more offensive role. I think that's his best chance of getting back to his rookie year game. He needs to find his offensive game back because his shot is good and be freed up to do that without worrying that his defense will suffer because he can't back fast enough to cover some other teams breakout

 

[Ogrezilla]

All I know is if Schultz decides last year was an anomaly our most expensive D in the league is going to ****ing blow.

I expect it to be quite good. Not having anybody cheap on it sucks, but that's why we need to make good use of cheap forwards like Guentzel and soon hopefully Sprong and Bleuger.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Actually, I expect the opposite. I think Maatta's best game will be playing with Hunwick rather than a more offensive player who will force him into a more defensive role. Hunwick hopefully skates better and can be the player who gets back into his end first to defend and allow Maatta to pinch more and play a more offensive role. I think that's his best chance of getting back to his rookie year game. He needs to find his offensive game back because his shot is good and be freed up to do that without worrying that his defense will suffer because he can't back fast enough to cover some other teams breakout

You just restated exactly what I said

"Him" in the post you quoted is referring to Hunwick in comparison to Daley. Which leads to exactly what you said.

 

[Peat]

Actually, I expect the opposite. I think Maatta's best game will be playing with Hunwick rather than a more offensive player who will force him into a more defensive role. Hunwick hopefully skates better and can be the player who gets back into his end first to defend and allow Maatta to pinch more and play a more offensive role. I think that's his best chance of getting back to his rookie year game. He needs to find his offensive game back because his shot is good and be freed up to do that without worrying that his defense will suffer because he can't back fast enough to cover some other teams breakout

I think Ogrezilla is talking about Hunwick doing less pinching and joining the rush, not Maatta.

Which is probably a good thing for him. Although I thought Maatta-Schultz looked good in its limited sample.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I think Ogrezilla is talking about Hunwick doing less pinching and joining the rush, not Maatta.

Which is probably a good thing for him. Although I thought Maatta-Schultz looked good in its limited sample.

When things go right for them, they will. But I doubt Maatta's offense ever comes back to where it should be playing with Schultz. And when they mess up, it will be ugly.

 

[Peat]

When things go right for them, they will. But I doubt Maatta's offense ever comes back to where it should be playing with Schultz. And when they mess up, it will be ugly.

Could be right, but I can see it working as a pairing that gets a lot of offensive zone time. I doubt we see it enough to work out the truth there anyway.

edit: Still, if needed, I think it works. Maybe not optimal use, but I don't dislike Maatta in these situations as much as you do.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Could be right, but I can see it working as a pairing that gets a lot of offensive zone time. I doubt we see it enough to work out the truth there anyway.

edit: Still, if needed, I think it works. Maybe not optimal use, but I don't dislike Maatta in these situations as much as you do.

I don't think he's bad there, just less good. And I think Cole does that job better.

 

[Shady Machine]

Maatta was better than Dumo these playoffs?

Well, the time out of The Twilight Zone was nice while it lasted.

Haha. Yeah Dumo was a rock. Not sure what's going on here