Salary Cap: The Salary Cap Thread | Countdown to Camp

[The GM]

Dumoulin turns into somewhat of a playoff warrior. He has that switch he turns on when the games start to matter. He turns into a brick wall.

Like fan favourite Brooks Orpik?

 

[Riptide]

Talk of Maatta as a 4-5D based on our usage of him would be roughly equivalent to calling Kessel a third liner because he spent most of his ES time there. Technically true in one sense, but very unreflective of true talent levels because the team believes in spreading its talent very equally.

And on the other hand, still reflective of what a replacement would need to bring to the table.

 

[thecore]

Cole, what do you think that crap proves? Seriously. Do you think that somehow invalidates the numbers that I posted? Do you think those numbers just don't exist because you're making a sarcastic remark?

This isn't just a problem I have here, it's a problem I have on this entire site. Advanced stats don't support your narrative? Well, those stats must be wrong and you're just an idiot! I've dealt with this constantly on this site, because people would rather cling to their own baseless opinions than accept numbers that prove them to be false. Advanced stats aren't the be all, end all for discussions, but making sarcastic remarks or "you have to watch them!" or any other BS argument I get against them don't invalidate those stats. Dumoulin needs to be doing something really damn special for him to be drastically better than Maatta (to the point where people in here are seriously saying you can replace Maatta with Hainsey), and no, just being a lot better of a skater isn't that.

There is indeed an intense groupthink bias against Maatta on this site because of his poor skating. When he gives up a goal, the optics are often terrible. But his results are those of a 2-3 dman, just like Dumo. I don't think Maatta's skating will improve dramatically at this point, but I do expect his offensive numbers to rise up to the mean.

 

[Empoleon8771]

And on the other hand, still reflective of what a replacement would need to bring to the table.

Just repeating it over and over again doesn't make it true.

There is indeed an intense groupthink bias against Maatta on this site because of his poor skating. When he gives up a goal, the optics are often terrible. But his results are those of a 2-3 dman, just like Dumo. I don't think Maatta's skating will improve dramatically at this point, but I do expect his offensive numbers to rise up to the mean.

Yeah, I really think the first sentence sums up the entire thing. People think Dumoulin is better because he looks better in the Penguins system, since he's a phenomenal skater. However, that doesn't mean he actually provides better results.

I fully expect Maatta to have the same kind of resurgence that Brodin had with Minnesota after his 2015-2016 season. Brodin went from putting up 7 points in 68 games in 2015-2016 to putting up 25 points in 68 games last season, which was his career best offensive numbers. Oddly enough, Brodin was at the same exact age Maatta was at when he had his awful season too. I completely expect Maatta to do that this year.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

Cole, what do you think that crap proves? Seriously. Do you think that somehow invalidates the numbers that I posted? Do you think those numbers just don't exist because you're making a sarcastic remark?

This isn't just a problem I have here, it's a problem I have on this entire site. Advanced stats don't support your narrative? Well, those stats must be wrong and you're just an idiot! I've dealt with this constantly on this site, because people would rather cling to their own baseless opinions than accept numbers that prove them to be false. Advanced stats aren't the be all, end all for discussions, but making sarcastic remarks or "you have to watch them!" or any other BS argument I get against them don't invalidate those stats. Dumoulin needs to be doing something really damn special for him to be drastically better than Maatta (to the point where people in here are seriously saying you can replace Maatta with Hainsey), and no, just being a lot better of a skater isn't that.

Who do you think will be skating on the top pair with Letang at the start of the season?

 

[Empoleon8771]

Who do you think will be skating on the top pair with Letang at the start of the season?

Personally, I'd have it be Maatta, but that's mainly because I really like the idea of a Dumoulin-Schultz pair. I think Schultz is the defenseman that needs to be paired with a DFD the most, and Dumoulin's skating plus his defensive ability (even with a bad season last year, he's a top notch DFD) makes him a logical partner for him. I like Maatta on that top pair because I think it can let him play more of a 2-way game, when he'd be playing more of a defensive game with Schultz.

 

[Peat]

And on the other hand, still reflective of what a replacement would need to bring to the table.

Only if you want to change the way our defence operates or make it notably weaker.

Who do you think will be skating on the top pair with Letang at the start of the season?

I suspect it will be Dumo with Maatta expected to be the main man on pairing 2b, but I don't think it would surprise anyone to see Maatta up there and Dumo elsewhere.

 

[ColePens]

Cole, what do you think that crap proves? Seriously. Do you think that somehow invalidates the numbers that I posted? Do you think those numbers just don't exist because you're making a sarcastic remark?

This isn't just a problem I have here, it's a problem I have on this entire site. Advanced stats don't support your narrative? Well, those stats must be wrong and you're just an idiot! I've dealt with this constantly on this site, because people would rather cling to their own baseless opinions than accept numbers that prove them to be false. Advanced stats aren't the be all, end all for discussions, but making sarcastic remarks or "you have to watch them!" or any other BS argument I get against them don't invalidate those stats. Dumoulin needs to be doing something really damn special for him to be drastically better than Maatta (to the point where people in here are seriously saying you can replace Maatta with Hainsey), and no, just being a lot better of a skater isn't that.

Hey don't get mad at me. We've been on the same page a lot this summer. But you are comparing apples and oranges and throwing out random numbers that don't mean anything. I call a spade a spade around here.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Hey don't get mad at me. We've been on the same page a lot this summer. But you are comparing apples and oranges and throwing out random numbers that don't mean anything. I call a spade a spade around here.

How do those numbers not mean anything though? They have completely valid definitions that make sense

They're different players in different roles, that's why you can't just say who is better based solely on the stats. However, when the stats point to Maatta being better (or at worst it being very close), Dumoulin needs to be doing something really special for him to be significantly better than Maatta, because if he's not significantly better, then he's in "replaceable by Hainsey" territory too.

That's the issue I have here. People act like Dumoulin is untouchable and is one of the cornerstones of the Penguins defense while Maatta can be replaced by Ron ****ing Hainsey. It makes no sense to be saying those two things at the same time.

 

[Peat]

How do those numbers not mean anything though? They have completely valid definitions that make sense

They're different players in different roles, that's why you can't just say who is better based solely on the stats. However, when the stats point to Maatta being better (or at worst it being very close), Dumoulin needs to be doing something really special for him to be significantly better than Maatta, because if he's not significantly better, then he's in "replaceable by Hainsey" territory too.

That's the issue I have here. People act like Dumoulin is untouchable and is one of the cornerstones of the Penguins defense while Maatta can be replaced by Ron ****ing Hainsey. It makes no sense to be saying those two things at the same time.

Are the roles really that different? They're both dmen with similar levels of TOI, similar levels of PP time (less than 5 minutes difference), similar-ish levels of PK time (60 minutes difference in Maatta's favour), similar zone starts, and they both tend to find themselves playing with a smooth-skating puck-moving dman.

What am I missing here? Because to me, it looks like if these two players can't be compared, then who the hell can be?

 

[ColePens]

Simplify your thoughts. Ask yourself if Maatta can play Dumo's role and vice versa. If your answer is yes, then I'm not sure what you see in how they defend.

 

[Andy99]

FYI, In Friday's DK insider, Yohe's says he spoke to several players about the mystery 3C and all of them said they want one thing: a player who kills penalties and kills them well.
Don't know if that was filtered to JR but that probably would preclude Duchene

 

[Empoleon8771]

Simplify your thoughts. Ask yourself if Maatta can play Dumo's role and vice versa. If your answer is yes, then I'm not sure what you see in how they defend.

I don't think either guy would have any problems if they'd switch roles

That's why I want the top pair this year to be Maatta-Letang.

 

[Peat]

We referring to Dumo being a guy who's very good at being the stay at home dman next to a buccaneer while Maatta being a guy who likes to get forwards himself, right? Fair point, but its not like Maatta hasn't been stationed as the more defensive half of a pairing regularly over the last two seasons. I don't like him doing it as much as Dumo because a) wasted offensive potential b) skating makes him less desirable there, but its not like he can't do it/hasn't done it.

FYI, In Friday's DK insider, Yohe's says he spoke to several players about the mystery 3C and all of them said they want one thing: a player who kills penalties and kills them well.
Don't know if that was filtered to JR but that probably would preclude Duchene

Didn't JR say that PKing was something that could be taught and he wasn't that bothered about?

 

[Jenkins]

FYI, In Friday's DK insider, Yohe's says he spoke to several players about the mystery 3C and all of them said they want one thing: a player who kills penalties and kills them well.
Don't know if that was filtered to JR but that probably would preclude Duchene

He does PK and he'd be very effective. Good on faceoffs, good defense and fast. Him and Hagelin on the PK would be dangerous.

 

[mpp9]

FYI, In Friday's DK insider, Yohe's says he spoke to several players about the mystery 3C and all of them said they want one thing: a player who kills penalties and kills them well.
Don't know if that was filtered to JR but that probably would preclude Duchene

JR has gone on record saying his guy doesn't need to kill penalties. And it's not up to the players.

 

[Gurglesons]

How do those numbers not mean anything though? They have completely valid definitions that make sense

They're different players in different roles, that's why you can't just say who is better based solely on the stats. However, when the stats point to Maatta being better (or at worst it being very close), Dumoulin needs to be doing something really special for him to be significantly better than Maatta, because if he's not significantly better, then he's in "replaceable by Hainsey" territory too.

That's the issue I have here. People act like Dumoulin is untouchable and is one of the cornerstones of the Penguins defense while Maatta can be replaced by Ron ****ing Hainsey. It makes no sense to be saying those two things at the same time.

I agree. That's why I don't like the Dumo contract.

I'm fine having one player like that locked up long term, but they both can struggle pretty mightly and it is hard to say if they are simply good on their own, or good because of their partners.

I think both of them are replaceable if you find the right deal.

 

[Andy99]

Didn't JR say that PKing was something that could be taught and he wasn't that bothered about?

Yeah. They're not all on the same page.

 

[Gurglesons]

Simplify your thoughts. Ask yourself if Maatta can play Dumo's role and vice versa. If your answer is yes, then I'm not sure what you see in how they defend.

Huh?

Didn't they pretty much do this in the playoffs this year?

Dumo and Maatta were both game leaders interchangably in terms of minutes.

 

[Andy99]

JR has gone on record saying his guy doesn't need to kill penalties. And it's not up to the players.

If you don't think Crosby is consulted on trades etc, I have only two words: Ryan Reaves

 

[Jenkins]

If you don't think Crosby is consulted on trades etc, I have only two words: Ryan Reaves

Crosby is also friends with Duchene and trains with him in the off season.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

We referring to Dumo being a guy who's very good at being the stay at home dman next to a buccaneer while Maatta being a guy who likes to get forwards himself, right? Fair point, but its not like Maatta hasn't been stationed as the more defensive half of a pairing regularly over the last two seasons. I don't like him doing it as much as Dumo because a) wasted offensive potential b) skating makes him less desirable there, but its not like he can't do it/hasn't done it.

I think Maatta being the defensedefensedefense guy on a pairing hurts his overall game and it does waste offensive potential. He can do it but it diminishes him as a player and he's better when he's engaging offensively. It also seems good for his confidence when he's producing. If anything the coaching staff should get on his case about going too defense first.

Dumoulin can be that defensive defenseman without it hurting him.

Didn't JR say that PKing was something that could be taught and he wasn't that bothered about?

Yeah, and one of the defensemen or a staple PKer at forward is probably like "I DON'T WANT TO BLOCK EXTRA SHOTS!!!!" Or Phil is having nightmares about being sent out on the PK.

 

[Gurglesons]

I think Maatta being the defensedefensedefense guy on a pairing hurts his overall game and it does waste offensive potential. He can do it but it diminishes him as a player and he's better when he's engaging offensively. It also seems good for his confidence when he's producing. If anything the coaching staff should get on his case about

Dumoulin can be that defensive defenseman without it hurting him.
:

Dumoulin can barely put together assists playing with Kris Letang.

Is that supposed to be a good thing?

 

[Andy99]

Crosby is also friends with Duchene and trains with him in the off season.

I'm sure he would love him here. They have the same agent too.
I thought Matt didn't do a whole lot of pking over the years, and just a little last year, but I'll defer to those more in the know.
We can't force Sakic to be reasonable or to love our players but it would be sweet....

 

[Andy99]

Who do we have now on the pk now with Bonino and Cullen gone? Dumo, Cole, Hags. Kuhn, if he makes the team. Rusty? Anyone else? Rowney? That's plenty