Salary Cap: The Salary Cap Thread | Countdown to Camp

[SEALBound]

That's not realistic for what Sheahan would bring back in a trade. If Schultz can bring back a 3rd, so can Sheahan.

Edmonton also retained 50% of his salary. Otherwise, we could not have fit him.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Edmonton also retained 50% of his salary. Otherwise, we could not have fit him.

Schultz at 50% retained also had a $1.95 million cap hit.

 

[Peat]

Hainsey is roughly as good as Maatta at pure defensive duties but is nowhere near as good a puck mover. In this team, the latter is a real issue.

We could get a guy who'd sub in at a pinch for Maatta, but we're probably not getting a guy who matches his full package from last season, nevermind what he can be.


Also, Detroit will probably have better options for offloading a guy than our 5th rounder.

If he likes it here and we're making deep runs into the playoffs, I have no reason to imagine he'd leave after his deal was up like some people think he will. The cap will probably be another couple of million higher, and we'll likely be parting ways with Hagelin and his $4M/yr by the time we have to worry about Duchene's next deal anyway.

Hagelin's money will be going pretty directly to Jake. Never say never but it would be really, really difficult for us to match market value for him as a free agent.

I don't know how you can say JR is likely going to do it. That's purely speculative with no real basis. JR played hardball and refused to part with anything more expensive than Kapanen and a 1st for Kessel--another beleaguered player who was ready to mutually part ways with his team. Maybe Colorado isn't as keen to move Duchene as Toronto was, but Duchene's certainly made it obvious he's unhappy and will eventually have his agent force Sakic's hand.

We'll see what happens. I'll be upset if we move Sprong, but Duchene is as good as a player in terms of style, fit, and caliber as we can find.

As mentioned, Kessel's NTC means this isn't a comparable situation. Rutherford was a market of 1 for Kessel - he'll be in a market of a good half-dozen for Duchene and frankly, most of the teams will be more desperate than us.

edit:

Schultz at 50% retained also had a $1.95 million cap hit.

I'd add that Edmonton also only had to deal with for a couple of months while having plenty of cap space. Detroit would have to take it all season and are desperately short of cap space, hence why they're looking at doing this.

 

[Nakawick]

More and more I believe that JR is waiting Sakic out on Duchene and will end up with him.

Yeah, pretty much everything JR has said between the lines since the entry draft points to him waiting out on what happens with Duchene.

We don't. And the discussion is just because we are bored. We need Sakic to really obsess with current roster players that are young (Maatta) and we need other teams to drop out because Sakic pissed them off.

The most optimistic percentage I can put on it is about 5%.

Dude come on, we may not end up with Duchene but the chacnes are higher than 5%.

 

[mpp9]

Hainsey can't replace what we hope/think Maatta will become this year, but he absolutely can replace what Maatta was last year.

Pretty much. That's the tradeoff. No ones moving an impact forward for a Hainsey level young D. But they might for a package based around young D with offensive upside.

2 years of Duchene and maybe more vs multiple years of Maatta as a #4/5D and possibly higher upside.

Throwing in a 1st and a spare winger is about as far as I'd go on top.

 

[mpp9]

I'll also add that if Maatta is moved, its at least partially because management doesn't believe his upside is that high.

Our blue line is pretty damn expensive at the moment and we have several forwards to re-sign soon. Maatta not regularly playing in our top 4 while making 4 mil/year isn't near ideal.

From what I've seen the past two seasons, I expect Cole to partner with Schultz. And Hunwick doesn't exactly need to do anything exemplary to be the first to move up the depth chart in case of injury.

 

[Jenkins]

I don't get the Maatta as a #5D talk. Maatta had a good season, better than Dumoulin's.

 

[mpp9]

I don't get the Maatta as a #5D talk. Maatta had a good season, better than Dumoulin's.

You're out of your mind.

 

[JTG]

I don't get the Maatta as a #5D talk. Maatta had a good season, better than Dumoulin's.

Yeah...no

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I don't get the Maatta as a #5D talk. Maatta had a good season, better than Dumoulin's.

Are we talking about the 2016-17 season?

 

[JTG]

I'll also add that if Maatta is moved, its at least partially because management doesn't believe his upside is that high.

Our blue line is pretty damn expensive at the moment and we have several forwards to re-sign soon. Maatta not regularly playing in our top 4 while making 4 mil/year isn't near ideal.

From what I've seen the past two seasons, I expect Cole to partner with Schultz. And Hunwick doesn't exactly need to do anything exemplary to be the first to move up the depth chart in case of injury.

4m is too much for a 4/5 defenseman. If they keep him they have to believe he will recover from his ailments and he will finally progress. Olli Maatta right now is too expensive for what he is. The Pens couldn't have seen it coming either because, before all of the **** with him, he was worth 4m all day long.

 

[Peat]

Talk of Maatta as a 4-5D based on our usage of him would be roughly equivalent to calling Kessel a third liner because he spent most of his ES time there. Technically true in one sense, but very unreflective of true talent levels because the team believes in spreading its talent very equally.

 

[Jenkins]

Are we talking about the 2016-17 season?

Yes. 15-16 Maatta was not great and Dumo was.

This past season Dumo was still good but he was a bit more inconsistent and didn't perform as well as 15-16.

In the playoffs just gone I'd put Dumo slightly ahead of Maatta but they were both really good.

 

[Peat]

Dumo gets more of a pass for a very streaky season than he should but, even allowing for one guy playing mostly with Daley and another guy getting half his season with Letang, he was not worse than Maatta. Who had a better season than some allow but wasn't anything to shout about.

 

[JTG]

Talk of Maatta as a 4-5D based on our usage of him would be roughly equivalent to calling Kessel a third liner because he spent most of his ES time there. Technically true in one sense, but very unreflective of true talent levels because the team believes in spreading its talent very equally.

I'm not referring to his usage, I'm referring to his skillset. The things Maatta does well you do not need to pay 4m a year for them.

 

[JTG]

Dumoulin turns into somewhat of a playoff warrior. He has that switch he turns on when the games start to matter. He turns into a brick wall.

 

[Pens x]

Dumoulin turns into somewhat of a playoff warrior. He has that switch he turns on when the games start to matter. He turns into a brick wall.

I thought that was a characteristic that was frowned upon around these boards. Bones was ridiculed because he didn't produce in October and stepped it up later in the season when it mattered...

 

[Jenkins]

Dumo gets more of a pass for a very streaky season than he should but, even allowing for one guy playing mostly with Daley and another guy getting half his season with Letang, he was not worse than Maatta. Who had a better season than some allow but wasn't anything to shout about.

Yeah I'm not suggesting Dumo was bad more that Maatta was good (better than a #5 and for this past season better than Dumo). Dumo was always going to get looked at more after a great 15-16.

Daley having a not so good season didn't help but that pair had some tough match ups too.

My point was I thought Maatta had a good season and maybe his previous season left some impressions on opinions that carried over into 16-17.

I think our D looks better with Maatta-Letang, Dumoulin-Schultz. That's more based on "fit" rather than who is better though.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I thought that was a characteristic that was frowned upon around these boards. Bones was ridiculed because he didn't produce in October and stepped it up later in the season when it mattered...

Except in the 2017 playoffs. But hey, 50/50 ain't bad.

 

[mpp9]

I do not trust Maatta going up against a team's top forwards every night. I do with Dumoulin. His skating ability makes him a poor fit to cover up for Letang. And he simply doesn't provide much offense.

I am in no way in favor of trading him for value. Just that his contract is questionable for what he provides and if he can be used to address a need and an impact player at that, I do it.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Dumoulin seems to be overrated and Maatta seems to be very underrated based on what I'm reading in here right now. Here's what their regular season look like in the last 2 years:

Maatta: 122 games, 7 goals and 26 points, 19:06 TOI/game, 51.1% CF%, 62.0% GF%, 1.93 GA/60, .733 ES points/60
Dumoulin: 149 games, 1 goal and 31 points, 19:40 TOI/game, 52.1 CF%, 51.3% GF%, 2.28 GA/60, .649 ES points/60

The idea that Dumoulin's a borderline top pair D and Maatta's a fringe #4/5 is just laughably untrue. Nothing I'm seeing supports the idea that there is much separation between the two, the difference is that Dumoulin just looks better because he can skate better. That's it. People here can't differentiate between Maatta not being able to skate well and Maatta not being good, which makes absolutely no sense to me. He's not a worse player by Dumoulin by any significant margin. Maatta was actually probably better than Dumoulin last year, even with his awful offensive numbers. It's because Dumoulin wasn't good this year, he provided no offensive game and he was giving up a ton of goals left and right (2.64 ES goals against/60)

 

[ColePens]

Comparing Dumo and Maatta is definitely like comparing apples and oranges. But oh!! Tell me what their GA/60 is!

 

[Empoleon8771]

Cole, what do you think that crap proves? Seriously. Do you think that somehow invalidates the numbers that I posted? Do you think those numbers just don't exist because you're making a sarcastic remark?

This isn't just a problem I have here, it's a problem I have on this entire site. Advanced stats don't support your narrative? Well, those stats must be wrong and you're just an idiot! I've dealt with this constantly on this site, because people would rather cling to their own baseless opinions than accept numbers that prove them to be false. Advanced stats aren't the be all, end all for discussions, but making sarcastic remarks or "you have to watch them!" or any other BS argument I get against them don't invalidate those stats. Dumoulin needs to be doing something really damn special for him to be drastically better than Maatta (to the point where people in here are seriously saying you can replace Maatta with Hainsey), and no, just being a lot better of a skater isn't that.

 

[Peat]

I do not trust Maatta going up against a team's top forwards every night. I do with Dumoulin. His skating ability makes him a poor fit to cover up for Letang. And he simply doesn't provide much offense.

I am in no way in favor of trading him for value. Just that his contract is questionable for what he provides and if he can be used to address a need and an impact player at that, I do it.

But Maatta did go up against the opposition's top forwards every night last season and he came out of it with one of the team's best GA and +/-. Your lack of trust seems misplaced.

Also, his ppg most seasons puts him in the top 100 for dmen and mostly done without PP time. You've got some harsh standards for providing offence.

I'm not referring to his usage, I'm referring to his skillset. The things Maatta does well you do not need to pay 4m a year for them.

Very solid defence with smart puck moving and a ppg pace of over 20 most seasons frequently costs around 4m and the dmen who provide this but are somehow on lesser contracts aren't available for trade.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I also don't see how you can possibly say Maatta doesn't provide much offense when:

A. He put up 29 points in his rookie season
B. He put up a 28 point pace in his first 3 seasons combined
C. Even with his dreadful offensive season last year, he still has a 24 point pace per 82 games in his career
D. Dumoulin has 1 career goal in 150 games

I wonder, were Minnesota fans saying Brodin sucked after he put up 7 points in 68 games in 2015-2016 and was only a #4/5D that could be replaced by Hainsey?