Salary Cap: The Salary Cap Thread | Countdown to Camp

[Jenkins]

With our D core we could do a similar thing as we do with our forwards and spread the wealth.

Dumo-Letang
Cole-Schultz
Maatta-Hunwick

and the bottom 2 pairs play closer to the same minutes generally speaking. Opposition couldn't really exploit any pairings and on bad nights we have the bodies to change it up.

 

[Peat]

Yeah, I'd agree with that Ogre.

With our D core we could do a similar thing as we do with our forwards and spread the wealth.

Dumo-Letang
Cole-Schultz
Maatta-Hunwick

and the bottom 2 pairs play closer to the same minutes generally speaking. Opposition couldn't really exploit any pairings and on bad nights we have the bodies to change it up.

Which is pretty much what we were doing last season and will probably do as long as we have the personnel to support it.

Which is why I oppose the "Maatta is easily replaceable" thing. He isn't if you want to keep running the defensive pairs this way unless you split up Letang and Dumo - which maybe works - and if you want to go conventional 1st-2nd-3rd, Letang probably plays more minutes and has less attacking opportunities. Not world ending, but not desirable.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Yeah, I'd agree with that Ogre.



Which is pretty much what we were doing last season and will probably do as long as we have the personnel to support it.

Which is why I oppose the "Maatta is easily replaceable" thing. He isn't if you want to keep running the defensive pairs this way unless you split up Letang and Dumo - which maybe works - and if you want to go conventional 1st-2nd-3rd, Letang probably plays more minutes and has less attacking opportunities. Not world ending, but not desirable.

Yeah I disagree that Maatta is easily replaceable. That said, I would probably still trade him for Duchene. I think we could adequately replace Maatta short term. It would be a downgrade on D for sure (and could potentially be a bigger issue long term if we can't replace him properly) but I think it's a risk I'd be willing to take.

 

[Peat]

Yeah I disagree that Maatta is easily replaceable. That said, I would probably still trade him for Duchene. I think we could adequately replace Maatta short term. It would be a downgrade on D for sure (and could potentially be a bigger issue long term if we can't replace him properly) but I think it's a risk I'd be willing to take.

Depends on how much you'd have to add to Maatta innit.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Depends on how much you'd have to add to Maatta innit.

for sure. I'm just saying Maatta wouldn't be my holdup assuming he's the biggest piece going. I likely wouldn't want to add what they are asking. A Maatta, a 1st and Sheary would probably be my max offer. I wouldn't love it, but I think I'd do it. If they want Sprong, I'm out. We need a cheap guy like him more than we need the superstar level 3C imo.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Maatta was better than Dumo these playoffs?

Well, the time out of The Twilight Zone was nice while it lasted.

Well, considering one of the knocks against Dumoulin is he doesn't do anything that's noticeable -- even though that's pretty much what you hope from a purely stay at home defender -- that means he wasn't great in his role. Or something.

Personally, I thought Dumo had a so-so regular season, but was an absolute rock in the playoffs.

 

[JTG]

I thought that was a characteristic that was frowned upon around these boards. Bones was ridiculed because he didn't produce in October and stepped it up later in the season when it mattered...

Except Bonino didn't produce when it mattered. There was one time Bonino produced consistent offense in Pittsburgh and that is when HBK was rolling.

Dumoulin seems to be overrated and Maatta seems to be very underrated based on what I'm reading in here right now. Here's what their regular season look like in the last 2 years:

Maatta: 122 games, 7 goals and 26 points, 19:06 TOI/game, 51.1% CF%, 62.0% GF%, 1.93 GA/60, .733 ES points/60
Dumoulin: 149 games, 1 goal and 31 points, 19:40 TOI/game, 52.1 CF%, 51.3% GF%, 2.28 GA/60, .649 ES points/60

The idea that Dumoulin's a borderline top pair D and Maatta's a fringe #4/5 is just laughably untrue. Nothing I'm seeing supports the idea that there is much separation between the two, the difference is that Dumoulin just looks better because he can skate better. That's it. People here can't differentiate between Maatta not being able to skate well and Maatta not being good, which makes absolutely no sense to me. He's not a worse player by Dumoulin by any significant margin. Maatta was actually probably better than Dumoulin last year, even with his awful offensive numbers. It's because Dumoulin wasn't good this year, he provided no offensive game and he was giving up a ton of goals left and right (2.64 ES goals against/60)

Dumoulin played against every single top player the Penguins faced.

Maatta did not.

But Maatta did go up against the opposition's top forwards every night last season and he came out of it with one of the team's best GA and +/-. Your lack of trust seems misplaced.

Also, his ppg most seasons puts him in the top 100 for dmen and mostly done without PP time. You've got some harsh standards for providing offence.



Very solid defence with smart puck moving and a ppg pace of over 20 most seasons frequently costs around 4m and the dmen who provide this but are somehow on lesser contracts aren't available for trade.

We just signed Matt Hunwick for 2.25m and he can do everything that Maatta can, albeit not everything as well.

Like fan favourite Brooks Orpik?

Orpik quit flipping the switch a few years before he left.

 

[Peat]

for sure. I'm just saying Maatta wouldn't be my holdup assuming he's the biggest piece going. I likely wouldn't want to add what they are asking. A Maatta, a 1st and Sheary would probably be my max offer. I wouldn't love it, but I think I'd do it. If they want Sprong, I'm out. We need a cheap guy like him more than we need the superstar level 3C imo.

Not sure how I'd feel about Sheary as an add. The difference between Bonino's numbers as a 2C and a more defensive 3C make me less high on adding Duchene than most I think. Inclined to agree about Sprong being a no go.

Hypothetical - if Sakic says he doesn't like Maatta but he really likes Dumo, would people still be prepared to do a deal/what's the biggest add they'd do there?

 

[Empoleon8771]

Dumoulin played against every single top player the Penguins faced.

Maatta did not.

That alone doesn't compensate for the fact that Maatta's numbers are better. And let's not pretend Maatta wasn't getting tough minutes in that sample size too, he played a ton with Letang in the last 2 years against top competition. In 15-16, Dumoulin played either with Lovejoy or Daley and Maatta played with mostly Letang. Let's not pretend he was getting bottom pair minutes.

 

[mpp9]

That alone doesn't compensate for the fact that Maatta's numbers are better. And let's not pretend Maatta wasn't getting tough minutes in that sample size too, he played a ton with Letang in the last 2 years.

So you think we win last year with Maatta-Hainsey being our go to shutdown pair?

 

[Empoleon8771]

So you think we win last year with Maatta-Hainsey being our go to shutdown pair?

Yeah, probably. In an ideal world, their shutdown pair should have been Dumoulin-Maatta and Hainsey should have been on the bottom pair with Daley.

 

[Peat]

That alone doesn't compensate for the fact that Maatta's numbers are better. And let's not pretend Maatta wasn't getting tough minutes in that sample size too, he played a ton with Letang in the last 2 years against top competition. In 15-16, Dumoulin played either with Lovejoy or Daley and Maatta played with mostly Letang. Let's not pretend he was getting bottom pair minutes.

According to this, they faced an equal quality of opposition last season - https://cerebralpuck.com/2017/06/28/puck-moving-defensemen-series-pittsburgh-penguins/ - seems unlikely Maatta missed many of the opposition top forwards.

And given Maatta walked out of that with the team's best GA despite being landed with Daley I'm gonna guess that, yeah, a shut down pairing of him and Hainsey would have been fine.

 

[Empoleon8771]

According to this, they faced an equal quality of opposition last season - https://cerebralpuck.com/2017/06/28/puck-moving-defensemen-series-pittsburgh-penguins/ - seems unlikely Maatta missed many of the opposition top forwards.

And given Maatta walked out of that with the team's best GA despite being landed with Daley I'm gonna guess that, yeah, a shut down pairing of him and Hainsey would have been fine.

Yeah, it seems kinda weird that people would suggest Maatta didn't play very tough minutes. Unless you think the Cole-Schultz pair was getting tough minutes, which they obviously didn't, how exactly would you even shelter Maatta?

There's so many misconceptions about Maatta on this site by Penguins fans. It's obvious what groupthink has done with him, people just say things over and over again even though it's just blatantly untrue.

 

[Jenkins]

Yeah, it seems kinda weird that people would suggest Maatta didn't play very tough minutes. Unless you think the Cole-Schultz pair was getting tough minutes, which they obviously didn't, how exactly would you even shelter Maatta?

There's so many misconceptions about Maatta on this site by Penguins fans. It's obvious what groupthink has done with him, people just say things over and over again even though it's just blatantly untrue.

I think it's more that he didn't have the best 15-16 coupled with the fact that occasionally he gets burned for a goal and it sticks in the mind.

The things he does well are less noticeable like breaking up passes with a quick stick, makes good first passes but if they're short passes it doesn't get noticed. It creates the breakouts though. Doesn't get scored on that often.

No doubt he is our smartest defender the only real downside is the acceleration so he can never really skate out of trouble but generally his hockey IQ helps make up for it.

 

[mpp9]

In that graph, the gap between Maatta and Hainsey is about the same as Dumoulin and Maatta from a QoC and puck movement perspective. Not sure how you can tear Hainsey down while saying Maatta's as good as Dumoulin.

QoC is also not a uniform/exact stat. I'd be interested to see a series breakdown of who saw Ovy, Backstrom and Kuz the most.

I will say Maatta-Daley is not an ideal pair and am very interested in seeing how Maatta looks with a better defensive partner.

 

[Andy99]

Hypothetical - if Sakic says he doesn't like Maatta but he really likes Dumo, would people still be prepared to do a deal/what's the biggest add they'd do there?

Wow, that's a hard one but it's a no for me. I might consider a one for one trade of Dumo and Duchene, like Hall for Larsson, if Duchene was signed for more than 2 years.

 

[Empoleon8771]

In that graph, the gap between Maatta and Hainsey is about the same as Dumoulin and Maatta from a QoC and puck movement perspective. Not sure how you can read Hainsey down while saying Maatta's as good as Dumoulin.

QoC is also not a uniform/exact stat. I'd be interested to see a series breakdown of who saw Ovy, Backstrom and Kuz the most.

What? No it's not, you're just making stuff up now. Maatta and Dumoulin had essentially an equal QoC last year and Hainsey is clearly below them. The difference in their puck moving ability from that graph isn't large, either.

Literally from the article:

In Dumoulin and Maatta, the Pens’ have two solid improving defensemen. Although neither is an elite puck mover, they’re both capable and fit in nicely on 2nd/3rd pairing roles. Dumoulin in particular took a big step in his 2nd full season. His PMF of +0.50 was 2nd best on their team (excluding Letang). While Maatta’s PMF of -0.29 is not great, it’s respectable when considering he faced tough quality of competition and began as many shifts in the defensive zone (32%) as any Pens’ defender

 

[Gurglesons]

So you think we win last year with Maatta-Hainsey being our go to shutdown pair?

I think we basically win last year with any combination of Maatta Hainsey Dumo Daley Cole and Schultz playing around 18 - 20 minutes, because that is how we won.

Our team won last year because Murray and Fleury were both beasts and our coach is smart enough the only way to win was to turn Crosby and Malkin's lines loose with a offensive players like Kessel, Sheary and Jake while having two solid third pivots like Bonino and Cullen who could play heavy defensive minutes and then have wingers like Hags, Hornqvist, Rust, Archibald, and Wilson on those bottom lines that could speed up the ice and contribute.

With the way our team scored last year all we had to have our defense play at least averagely. Which they did stunningly. They were a stunningly average defense and this propping up of Dumo being a rock is the exact same BS people said about Scuds. He literally BLEEDS shots against in comparison to for when he plays without Letang.

He is a good player, that got lucky he was on a team with Crosby, Malkin, Jake and Kessel so his faults could get over looked because we score at least two goals a game.

I wish I could go through everyone's posts from the last three games of the Washington series. Or before Game 4 in the Ottawa series. Or before Game 5 in the Nash series and show you what you were saying about Dumo and Hainsey. I'm making the dinner though.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Dumoulin played against every single top player the Penguins faced.

Maatta did not.

Just for reference, here are the players top three forwards from each team each played against most this past season (sticking with just our division since I'm lazy and can't be bothered to do it for every team):

Dumoulin
Washington - Oshie (17:34), Ovechkin (15:07), Kuznetsov (13:34)
Columbus - Dubinsky (26:07), Foligno (23:54), Atkinson (23:34)
NY Rangers - Zuccarello (34:55), Stepan (32:52), Kreider (24:34)
NY Islanders - Bailey (28:22), Tavares (27:42), Lee (22:27)
New Jersey - Zajac (25:46), Palmeiri (25:04), Hall (24:40)
Carolina - Aho (16:16), Lindholm (14:06), Staal (12:37)
Philadelphia - Giroux (28:43), Voracek (25:13), Simmonds (21:00)
Link

Maatta
Washington - Backstrom (19:31), Ovechkin (19:10), Oshie (17:52)
Columbus - Atkinson (11:00), Jenner (10:43), Wennberg (10:25)
NY Rangers - Stepan (24:46), Zuccarello (23:31), Kreider (19:43)
NY Islanders - Tavares (21:52), Bailey (20:15), Ladd (15:52)
New Jersey - Cammalleri (13:25), Zajac (10:28), Palmeiri (8:49)
Carolina - Aho (7:36), Stempniak (6:49), Stalberg (5:31)
Philadelphia - Schenn (8:37), Simmonds (8:03), Giroux (7:46)
Link

*Sort by "TOI with"

 

[Gurglesons]

What the hell is going on against Philly with Maatta? Philly flu?

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

What the hell is going on against Philly with Maatta? Philly flu?

I think the Pens played the Flyers like 3 times in the final bit of the season, when Maatta was out for 6 weeks with that wrist injury.

Link

Can't remember when exactly Maatta got hurt, but the Pens played the Flyers on Feb 25, Mar 15, and Mar 26. Prior to that, they only played them once on Oct 29.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Looking at Maatta's game log, he did indeed miss the final 3 games versus the Flyers. His last game before the injury was on Feb 16 versus the Jets, then he didn't return until Apr 9 versus the Rangers.

Link

 

[mpp9]

What? No it's not, you're just making stuff up now. Maatta and Dumoulin had essentially an equal QoC last year and Hainsey is clearly below them. The difference in their puck moving ability from that graph isn't large, either.

Literally from the article:

You think the difference in QoC from Hainsey to Maatta is clear but the puck possession numbers from Maatta to Dumoulin isn't large?

I can read a graph man. The only things significant one can draw from that graph are that Letang is really ****ing good, Daley struggled big time, Cole was sheltered and Schultz while being sheltered was second only to Letang at moving the puck up ice.

 

[Gurglesons]

You think the difference in QoC from Hainsey to Maatta is clear but the puck possession numbers from Maatta to Dumoulin isn't large?

I can read a graph man. The only things significant one can draw from that graph are that Letang is really ****ing good, Daley struggled big time, Cole was sheltered and Schultz while being sheltered was second only to Letang at moving the puck up ice.

Maatta's possession stats are better with Daley than Dumo's with Hainsey in the playoffs.

I don't really understand what point you are trying to make, but in terms of advanced stats you don't want to go Maatta vs Dumo because Dumo is not very good and Maatta has at least shown flashes of the player we think he can be. Dumoulin also has the benefit of playing with Letang since Sullivan took over which is just unfair in terms of stats.

 

[mpp9]

Maatta's possession stats are better with Daley than Dumo's with Hainsey in the playoffs.

I don't really understand what point you are trying to make, but in terms of advanced stats you don't want to go Maatta vs Dumo because Dumo is not very good and Maatta has at least shown flashes of the player we think he can be. Dumoulin also has the benefit of playing with Letang since Sullivan took over which is just unfair in terms of stats.

My point is that the argument doesn't make sense. People who say don't trade Maatta would rip Hainsey despite hardly being a signifantly worse player by the stats. You can say Letang props Dumoulin up. Ok. Let's see how Maatta does this season.

You're still operating off stretches of good play and potential with Olli. Dumoulin works with Letang, we don't need Maatta to replace him. Cole works with Schultz. We only need a partner for Hunwick to take on some tougher matchups and not get scored on a lot. Maatta works there but is hardly irreplaceable. That's all I've ever said.

I'm happy keeping Maatta. Just not someone who's gonna say no to trading him in the right deal.