The Official Pierre "high five" Dorion Thread | Part IV

[Micklebot]

Was Dorion a genius for getting rid of Turris, Methot, Karlsson, Phaneuf, and Brassard seeing how their careers have stagnated?

We traded Phaneuf for Gaborik, pretty lateral move unless he knew Gaborik would LTIRetire ahead of the trade, but I doubt he did, because why would LA make the trade if they knew that, and how would he know if they didn't?

Methot messed up his knee after getting picked up by Vegas, not sure that's predictable, but he certainly was on the downside of his career based on age, so moving on from him was logical. The issue is that we didn't replace his role, and imo that's a huge part of why we are where we are right now. If we end up trading Ceci for scraps or not qualifying him, we are no better off than had we kept Methot and let VGK draft Ceci. Where's the genius here?

Brassard: I loved this trade. Credit where it's due, that was absolutely the right move. Getting him in the first place was debatable, but moving him when we did gets full marks.

Turris: Still too early to tell imo as he has had injury issues this year, but it's not looking good for him. That said, what would you rather have right now; A struggling Turris at 6x6, our 2019 1st round pick, Bowers, 2019 3rd, and Hammond or Abramov, Davidsson, and a 2019 first (+conditional first). That 2019 first looks like the best piece by a long shot.

Karlsson: Way to early to say his career has stagnated or claim that we clearly moved him at the right time, he has a groin injury, it happens. He's absolutely still one of the best Dmen in the league, despite having a slow start with a new team.

 

[coladin]

You've made some fair points about low attendance. If their response to low ticket sales is to continue to plug their ears and put their middle finger up, good luck to them.

Apology, humility, honesty, whatever you want to call it, I disagree on the difference it could have made. Their handling of many of these situations has been as problematic as the issues themselves, in my opinion.

By putting their middle finger up, do you mean by giving away tickets for virtually nothing this year and lowering almost all the seasons for the upcoming season? So if they "apologize", would you, if you were in Ottawa, renew with a price freeze instead?

Or would signing Chabot long term, instead of an apology, work better? Money money money . Actions, not words, for me.

I don't need an apology, they effed up, like other teams in the NHL have in the past. Now, they have to fix it going forward.

 

[coladin]

No our owners couldnt....EM and Bryden is and was broke....They didnt and dont have any other tangible source of income other than the team...EM cant realise this market nor grow it ,because he doesnt have the money..This much should be plain as day by now

Too simplified. This market will not pay to watch NHL hockey like in other Canadian markets. That immediately puts the organization behind the 8 ball. If Melnyk were the sugar daddy that everyone craves, that would cure some. But the owners in NYI are looking for partners, and that is after watching Tavares walk. These guys are not in it to lose money.

He has the money, he just doesn't want to give it to you. This rebuild is the only chance to build and keep the stars, of course banking on this market going to games. If they don't, well, it could be more rinse and repeat. This market has to decide whether thay can separate the owner from the players. That is not an easy thing to do. I have not renewed yet.

 

[PeterSidorkiewicz]

Was Dorion a genius for getting rid of Turris, Methot, Karlsson, Phaneuf, and Brassard seeing how their careers have stagnated?

I suppose when you get rid of everyone who needs a pay raise or makes decent money some of those guys might start to trend downwards.

If you play all rookies they have nowhere to go but up.

 

[coladin]

The point of rebuilding is to get a player like Karlsson though. Toronto rebuilt to get Matthews. Teams that already have a franchise player don't typically tear it all down, they instead build around their franchise player(s). Washington didn't tear things down to the frame when it wasn't working with Ovechkin, they kept that elite piece and changed the complimentary pieces. Tbay didn't trade Stamkos when they had rough times, they found pieces to support him. The Bruins didn't trade off Marchand, Bergeron, Krejci, Chara when they missed the playoffs two years in a row, they built around those key guys.

The problem with what we are doing is that there is little hope of getting that franchise guy because we're hitting rock bottom (presumably...) in a year we don't have our own pick, and the guys we moved out to get there are young enough to be a part of a winning mix when our prospects are ready to contribute on their ELC and 2nd contracts. Everybody seems to agree that vets are needed for a rebuild or retool; in an ideal world those vets should be young enough to be part of the finished product. Karlsson, Stone, Duchene all were young enough to do so. They could easily have been the core to build around, adding Chabot, Tkachuk, White, Batherson, Brown but, have gone in a different direction. Why did they choose to go that route? Did they not have a choice (players refused to sign with them), did they feel they could be better with the return for those three (Brannstrom, Norris, Tierney, DeMelo, Balcers, Abramov, Davidsson, Lindberg, 2019 1st, 2020 1st, 2019 2nd, 2020 2nd, conditional 1st, conditional 1st or 2nd), some combination of the above?

My suspicion is that this rebuild isn't going as planned. I suspect they wanted to keep Stone and Duchene, maybe even Karlsson, but couldn't convince those guys to sign. Why they wouldn't sign probably is more complicated than just money, or just wanting to win now, but the end result is the same; a team that is forced to go down a path that probably isn't what they envisioned.

You are exactly right, this rebuild took a major left turn because the rebuild was to include Duchene and Stone. And not having the 1st pick this year, while damaging, does not change the trajectory of the rebuild. This team will most likely be a lottery team next year and have a better shot at Lafreniere.

My fear is becoming the Oilers. Or Buffalo. Constantly drafting high, but never turning the corner. That can easily be us because there are more examples of failing rebuilds than successful ones. Toronto needs to win a round to cement their rebuilding as actually going somewhere.

 

[PeterSidorkiewicz]

Too simplified. This market will not pay to watch NHL hockey like in other Canadian markets. That immediately puts the organization behind the 8 ball. If Melnyk were the sugar daddy that everyone craves, that would cure some. But the owners in NYI are looking for partners, and that is after watching Tavares walk. These guys are not in it to lose money.

He has the money, he just doesn't want to give it to you. This rebuild is the only chance to build and keep the stars, of course banking on this market going to games. If they don't, well, it could be more rinse and repeat. This market has to decide whether thay can separate the owner from the players. That is not an easy thing to do. I have not renewed yet.

I honestly don't think we crave a sugar daddy, just someone who is not insane, who will build legit hockey ops, and run a professional organization. I think its been said countless times, at least by people on HF, that we understand we have to adhere to a budget being a small market team, but then as a small market team we have to be come up with more creative solutions to try and become competitive. My biggest issue is that our owner is a fraud and an emotionally unstable idiot.

I am of course still giving out the opinions I see on HF, and not the people actually in Ottawa, so.

 

[BatherSeason]

I honestly don't think we crave a sugar daddy, just someone who is not insane, who will build legit hockey ops, and run a professional organization. I think its been said countless times, at least by people on HF, that we understand we have to adhere to a budget being a small market team, but then as a small market team we have to be come up with more creative solutions to try and become competitive. My biggest issue is that our owner is a fraud and an emotionally unstable idiot.

I am of course still giving out the opinions I see on HF, and not the people actually in Ottawa, so.

A solid majority of the people in Ottawa share your opinion. I obviously don't have any figures to back that up, and I am sure someone will tell me that I am making up things, but the attendance speaks for itself, and so do the freebies and the drop in season ticket pricing. People are fed up with the Melnyk regime, we don't want a sugar daddy, we want hope and right now Melnyk and Dorion have drained the hope out of a very large part of the fanbase.

 

[coladin]

I honestly don't think we crave a sugar daddy, just someone who is not insane, who will build legit hockey ops, and run a professional organization. I think its been said countless times, at least by people on HF, that we understand we have to adhere to a budget being a small market team, but then as a small market team we have to be come up with more creative solutions to try and become competitive. My biggest issue is that our owner is a fraud and an emotionally unstable idiot.

I am of course still giving out the opinions I see on HF, and not the people actually in Ottawa, so.

I get what you are saying. The thing is: he followed exactly what he said in December 2017. Everything but the moving part. He said that if people don't start going to games, as he couldn't give away playoff tickets, then he will start to tie salaries to revenues. He said he cut everywhere else. It sounds like he stabbed the fans in the eye instead of in the back.

I knew he would. I run a business. And he sounded like a guy who is NOT putting money in his pocket and drain the resources of the team, which is the dumbest angle I have ever heard (not yours per se, but on these boards). The guy is losing money. Articles say it, there was a great link in the renewal thread leaked from an internal NHL document that demonstrated back in 09 what a drain the Sens were to the league coffers. Their freebies of 3K per game!

I mean, the predictable response to all that would be " yeah well, if he didn't do this, and that, and this and that, etc..." Fine. I doubt the intentions of many who go that route, and others you can tell they believe what they say. But the reality is this: the Ottawa Senators, in spite of Melnyk, have had some great runs under his ownership. Better than all the other Canadian franchises.

I am not happy with the rebuild. I hate rebuilds because I go to games. I pay to watch stars, not entry level players. I got my fill of EK, Stone and all the other guys and I enjoyed that. I felt I was entertained for the most part. This season has been much more enjoyable compared to last. That was the worst hockey that I have ever watched, and that was with Karlsson.

I have to weigh my options, although I am encouraged with where the team is heading, even though it wasn't by choice. The core has been decimated and the rebuilding will take longer, and the doubts of the rebuild working , in my mind, have gone down 50%. Should I sign up for that?

 

[coladin]

A solid majority of the people in Ottawa share your opinion. I obviously don't have any figures to back that up, and I am sure someone will tell me that I am making up things, but the attendance speaks for itself, and so do the freebies and the drop in season ticket pricing. People are fed up with the Melnyk regime, we don't want a sugar daddy, we want hope and right now Melnyk and Dorion have drained the hope out of a very large part of the fanbase.

Out Of Left Field: Senators: 3,000 freebie tickets; paid attendance firm across most of NHL

Here's the red meat of the Citizen article:

"The 22.8-per-cent drop is third-highest in the league, behind only the Phoenix Coyotes and the Tampa Bay Lightning. In the 30-team league, the Senators have fallen from seventh place in paid attendance to 19th.

"The Senators’ reported attendance has not fallen as far — only about seven per cent — because the number of free tickets issued by the team has increased dramatically.

"According to the report, the team handed out an average of 895 complimentary tickets per game last year. This year, that number has more than tripled to 3,047. Only two other teams, the Dallas Stars and the Atlanta Thrashers, give away more free tickets.

"The Senators have gone from using less than five per cent of their seats for free tickets to almost 16 per cent.

" ... And the Senators are the only Canadian team giving away such a large chunk of their tickets. Ottawa has six times as many complimentary seats as the next highest Canadian club, the Vancouver Canucks. And while the Senators are third highest, the other Canadian teams occupy five of the bottom six spots in the league for free tickets."

So, in 08-09, a season and a bit from the Cup Final, where the Senators had reportedly their high water point of STHs, rumoured to be 12K, they were still giving away 895 per game. The year after, 09-10, 3K per game in 08-09 season. They were"fed up" back then, were they? A year after the cup run, renewing for 08-09, almost 1K freebies per game?

Yes, the freebies speak for themselves alright. What did the freebies say back then?​

 

[bert]

Was Dorion a genius for getting rid of Turris, Methot, Karlsson, Phaneuf, and Brassard seeing how their careers have stagnated?

Karlsson's career has stagnated? He got hurt but has scored 45 points in 53 games...

Zibanejads career has taken off and is a legit first line center, Brassards has taken a turn was that a good decision? The writing was on the wall it was a rebuild obviously they needed ot trade him.

The Turris trade would have made sense if they got futures back for him if they knew they didnt have the money to sign him. But going all in on Duchene has put this organization back years and created this mess. So are you suggesting that was a good decision?

Phaneuf they took a bad contract back pretty much the same thing as keeping him minus losing leadership. As bad as dion has looked is he worse than Boro? Harpur? Probably not.

So losing Methot in the expansion draft was a good thing but not based on his play he was unreal in the playoff run in 2017 its because has been injured. Not to mention how it hurt the organization with the relationship with its best player in franchise history, who started this mass exiduce.

So I think without context you can say that but if you are actually trying to defend dorion when his team is last place without his first round pick is either insanity or you have a motive. Not to mention making this organization look like the laughing stock of the league a place where no players want to re-sign or go to.

 

[bert]

I honestly don't think we crave a sugar daddy, just someone who is not insane, who will build legit hockey ops, and run a professional organization. I think its been said countless times, at least by people on HF, that we understand we have to adhere to a budget being a small market team, but then as a small market team we have to be come up with more creative solutions to try and become competitive. My biggest issue is that our owner is a fraud and an emotionally unstable idiot.

I am of course still giving out the opinions I see on HF, and not the people actually in Ottawa, so.

I can only guess which poster made this argument as I have blocked a certain specific group of people.

However its the worst argument of all time. No one expects the team to spend the money it doesnt have, thats ridiculous. Its about the organization being run like an NHL hockey club. Which it is not, meddling owner, the front office that resembles a tier 2 jr A team, a paranoid inexperienced GM who cant tell the truth or be genuine and not condescending to save his life. Which to me is the scariest part as a fan.

What this team needs most of all if Melnyk is going to stay on as the owner is a President that can right this ship. Someone who has the respect of the hockey community who can hire the right people in the right positions that has the clout to convince players this is a place that they want to be. Show a real plan that the players will buy into.

The most troubling part of all of this is that its obvious the players dont believe in the current plan or the management group. Until this changes players will continue to leave. As crazy as Melnyk is he must understand that in order to win the fan base back he needs some form of stability and hope for the fans. A commitment from a good player would be a start. People may not like it but if Colin White signs a long term deal with an inflated cap hit that could go a long way with keeping this new young core together. If we see a bridge deal or something really short it will worry me a tremendous amount as it will be obvious this next wave of players do not believe in this management group.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

By putting their middle finger up, do you mean by giving away tickets for virtually nothing this year and lowering almost all the seasons for the upcoming season? So if they "apologize", would you, if you were in Ottawa, renew with a price freeze instead?

Or would signing Chabot long term, instead of an apology, work better? Money money money . Actions, not words, for me.

I don't need an apology, they effed up, like other teams in the NHL have in the past. Now, they have to fix it going forward.

No, by putting their middle finger up I mean their inability to accept or even listen to criticism along with their poor ability to communicate with fans and the patronizing, condescending, message controlling strategy they've taken in all their PR attempts. I would personally buy back in, at least in my limited capacity living on the other side of the Country, if I felt they were ready and willing to accept at least some of the responsibility. I'm a Senators fan, so I can live with a budget considering it's stood in our way for our entire existence to this point anyways. All I've heard is them blame players over and over, and take the victim stance and it turns me off.

You clearly don't agree and seem to believe that they've come by their circumstances honestly and handled things decently. I don't and that is a valid opinion not disproved by any low attendance number. Low attendance didn't force Dorion to blow half his budget on middling players that is now our "leadership core." I think they're just bad at their jobs, the results proved it on the ice and in their PR attempts. They blamed the players and we blamed them. They get the microphone and tell us we're wrong, we don't get a microphone. Rinse and repeat.

Being a condescending asshat to your fans probably isn't the best tactic, but you're right, the damage is done and an apology at this point is not going to do anything for anyone. I'm talking about hindsight and how they've handled everything and what could have been different. At this point? Ya, they're in tough no matter what they do, but I don't feel particularly bad for them either.

 

[Sweatred]

Was Dorion a genius for getting rid of Turris, Methot, Karlsson, Phaneuf, and Brassard seeing how their careers have stagnated?

YES - In all cases the tea leaves showed signs of decline and he deserves credit for each trade. He (or Julie) probably didn't assume Turris would fall of as quickly as he did and the true value of EK remains a question mark.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Was Dorion a genius for getting rid of Turris, Methot, Karlsson, Phaneuf, and Brassard seeing how their careers have stagnated?

YES - In all cases the tea leaves showed signs of decline and he deserves credit for each trade. He (or Julie) probably didn't assume Turris would fall of as quickly as he did and the true value of EK remains a question mark.

In one way, yes, he got off the pot at the right time on all four of Phaneuf, Brassard, Methot & Turris, but we didn't really come out ahead on any of these situations other than not paying them.

The issue with Methot was not losing him, it was not replacing him. It was made worse by Karlsson being so bad off surgery and losing our top pairing with such a stark drop off in talent to the rest is a big reason we're now rebuilding.

If we hadn't made the Duchene deal, we could have dealt Turris at the deadline instead, which obviously would have been a much much better decision in hindsight. Good decision to move on, bad decision the route they went that ended up burning them.

Phaneuf wouldn't be on the books now if we hadn't packaged all our short term dead money for him in the first place. It helped stabilize our D, so it was a good move at the time, but it's worth pointing out we could be free and clear with a different strategy. Also, are we really going to celebrate it as some coup when we're still paying a portion plus Gaborik's non insured portion at a time when we'll struggle to hit the cap floor anyways? It could just be more dead money to go with our "leadership core."

We could have a first line center in Zibanejad right now instead. Dorion pivoted well on this one and fixed his mistake, but again, he was fixing a situation he brought on.

Karlsson? Too early to tell, but I would wager he'll make anyone eat their words that's counting him out already.

 

[GrantLemons]

Was Dorion a genius for getting rid of Turris, Methot, Karlsson, Phaneuf, and Brassard seeing how their careers have stagnated?

YES - In all cases the tea leaves showed signs of decline and he deserves credit for each trade. He (or Julie) probably didn't assume Turris would fall of as quickly as he did and the true value of EK remains a question mark.

It was stupid to let Methot go when we did. It was a contributor to the god awful season we had last year. I don't care how he subsequently broke down. He was a leader, and at the time, we needed him.

Karlsson getting injured doesn't mean his career has stagnated. He's still on the right side of 30, and he's a future HoF. Trading him was moronic.

Phanuef and Brassard were no-brainer trades. We were sucking major ass, and there was interest in those guys, so it made all the sense in the world to move on from them.

Not signing Turris to that deal may be the only thing that you would consider a smart move. However, seeing how Pierre got taken to the f***ing cleaners when he traded Turris, I'm not really ready to give him a high five for that whole situation. It was a messy divorce from a player who had given the team and community a ton, while on a very team friendly contract. The botched the whole situation; with the culmination being us giving Jack Hughes to the Avs.

Call me crazy, but I'm not really seeing any genius moves here.

 

[BondraTime]

Phaneuf was a great move, probably Dorions best trade. Very smart management.

Methot had nothing to do with Dorion cutting bait and moving on, that's foolish.

Brassard had nothing to do with a GM being shrewd and selling high on a player. We tanked, and he was traded, for a decent return. That's the reason he was traded, not because Dorion was shrewd.

Turris, sure, we cut bait at the right time. Unfortunately, the trade was terrible.

Karlsson, no. That's ridiculous. Don't really need an explanation there.

 

[Sweatred]

In one way, yes, he got off the pot at the right time on all four of Phaneuf, Brassard, Methot & Turris, but we didn't really come out ahead on any of these situations other than not paying them.

The issue with Methot was not losing him, it was not replacing him. It was made worse by Karlsson being so bad off surgery and losing our top pairing with such a stark drop off in talent to the rest is a big reason we're now rebuilding.

If we hadn't made the Duchene deal, we could have dealt Turris at the deadline instead, which obviously would have been a much much better decision in hindsight. Good decision to move on, bad decision the route they went that ended up burning them.

Phaneuf wouldn't be on the books now if we hadn't packaged all our short term dead money for him in the first place. It helped stabilize our D, so it was a good move at the time, but it's worth pointing out we could be free and clear with a different strategy. Also, are we really going to celebrate it as some coup when we're still paying a portion plus Gaborik's non insured portion at a time when we'll struggle to hit the cap floor anyways? It could just be more dead money to go with our "leadership core."

We could have a first line center in Zibanejad right now instead. Dorion pivoted well on this one and fixed his mistake, but again, he was fixing a situation he brought on.

Karlsson? Too early to tell, but I would wager he'll make anyone eat their words that's counting him out already.

The Turris $6x6 contract which probably had to be $7x6 in Ottawa would have been untradeable this deadline the way he has played. I don't love PD but he deserves credit for those moves. The Zibby deal wasn't part of the question. Dorion has done a good job the past two years of moving on from declining assets. I get that he has moved on from virtually every asset.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

The Turris $6x6 contract which probably had to be $7x6 in Ottawa would have been untradeable this deadline the way he has played. I don'y love PD but he deserves credit for those moves. The Zibby deal wasn't part of the question. Dorion has done a good job the past two years of moving on from declining assets.

I meant traded at the deadline the year we traded him for Duchene. No contract would have needed to be in place and he would have been traded as a rental. In hindsight, that was definitely a better option than the Duchene trade.

It wasn't part of the question, but it certainly plays in to it and feels disingenuous to ignore those factors. Dorion has done a good job moving on from declining assets, but his inability to replace them and some being situations he created in the first place, does take away from them being some sort of genius coup.

 

[topshelf15]

Too simplified. This market will not pay to watch NHL hockey like in other Canadian markets. That immediately puts the organization behind the 8 ball. If Melnyk were the sugar daddy that everyone craves, that would cure some. But the owners in NYI are looking for partners, and that is after watching Tavares walk. These guys are not in it to lose money.

He has the money, he just doesn't want to give it to you. This rebuild is the only chance to build and keep the stars, of course banking on this market going to games. If they don't, well, it could be more rinse and repeat. This market has to decide whether thay can separate the owner from the players. That is not an easy thing to do. I have not renewed yet.

The big regional TV deal and brand new downtown arena project and good attendance in an oversized arena ...Say you are wrong...How can teams like WPG,EDM, CGY VAN all spend easily to the cap and we cant???The answer is their ownership doesnt need any profit from the team to survive as they are all actually rich...

 

[Silencio]

Was Dorion a genius for getting rid of Turris, Methot, Karlsson, Phaneuf, and Brassard seeing how their careers have stagnated?

YES - In all cases the tea leaves showed signs of decline and he deserves credit for each trade. He (or Julie) probably didn't assume Turris would fall of as quickly as he did and the true value of EK remains a question mark.

and Dahlen

 

[Silencio]

In one way, yes, he got off the pot at the right time on all four of Phaneuf, Brassard, Methot & Turris, but we didn't really come out ahead on any of these situations other than not paying them.

The issue with Methot was not losing him, it was not replacing him. It was made worse by Karlsson being so bad off surgery and losing our top pairing with such a stark drop off in talent to the rest is a big reason we're now rebuilding.

If we hadn't made the Duchene deal, we could have dealt Turris at the deadline instead, which obviously would have been a much much better decision in hindsight. Good decision to move on, bad decision the route they went that ended up burning them.

Phaneuf wouldn't be on the books now if we hadn't packaged all our short term dead money for him in the first place. It helped stabilize our D, so it was a good move at the time, but it's worth pointing out we could be free and clear with a different strategy. Also, are we really going to celebrate it as some coup when we're still paying a portion plus Gaborik's non insured portion at a time when we'll struggle to hit the cap floor anyways? It could just be more dead money to go with our "leadership core."

We could have a first line center in Zibanejad right now instead. Dorion pivoted well on this one and fixed his mistake, but again, he was fixing a situation he brought on.

Karlsson? Too early to tell, but I would wager he'll make anyone eat their words that's counting him out already.

I'd do the Phaneuf trade over again just for his OT goal against Boston. That was the turning point in the series (along with Karlsson's incredible Pied Piper routine on the tying goal).

 

[Stylizer1]

What if Karlsson's injury issn't his groin but has to do with his foot? What if our medical staff told Dorion his foot would never be the same and it's only a matter of time before it becomes a real issue.

Believe me I wanted Karlsson for the rest of his career but just think if this is the start of the decline.

 

[topshelf15]

No owner is going to walk in and say “I am going to spend my few hundred million dollars on Turris, Z-bad, and Karlsson so that my children’s, children’s children will have no money... but so that I can build a team that makes the “wannabe GMs” and fans happier”

Rebuild is the only way with such a small market.

I just hope PD gets the picks we need.

He is a good scout.

So far, no major mistakes... a few, but no one is perfect.

People want a cup more than anything. You have to rebuild... even with endless spending ability, the Leafs rebuilt. They lost for a long time... the fans revolted.

Rinse-repeat

To what end though???Is it an actual rebuild that has us actually trying to build a cup winner,that will cost EM much more money than he has ever spent before...Or is another attempt to win to a level that allows only EM to profit

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

I'd do the Phaneuf trade over again just for his OT goal against Boston. That was the turning point in the series (along with Karlsson's incredible Pied Piper routine on the tying goal).

That was a hell of a run, and I agree, he was a huge part of it.

 

[coladin]

No, by putting their middle finger up I mean their inability to accept or even listen to criticism along with their poor ability to communicate with fans and the patronizing, condescending, message controlling strategy they've taken in all their PR attempts. I would personally buy back in, at least in my limited capacity living on the other side of the Country, if I felt they were ready and willing to accept at least some of the responsibility. I'm a Senators fan, so I can live with a budget considering it's stood in our way for our entire existence to this point anyways. All I've heard is them blame players over and over, and take the victim stance and it turns me off.

You clearly don't agree and seem to believe that they've come by their circumstances honestly and handled things decently. I don't and that is a valid opinion not disproved by any low attendance number. Low attendance didn't force Dorion to blow half his budget on middling players that is now our "leadership core." I think they're just bad at their jobs, the results proved it on the ice and in their PR attempts. They blamed the players and we blamed them. They get the microphone and tell us we're wrong, we don't get a microphone. Rinse and repeat.

Being a condescending asshat to your fans probably isn't the best tactic, but you're right, the damage is done and an apology at this point is not going to do anything for anyone. I'm talking about hindsight and how they've handled everything and what could have been different. At this point? Ya, they're in tough no matter what they do, but I don't feel particularly bad for them either.

I appreciate what you are saying. Believe me, I am upset about a lot of things. Even if certain things happened honestly or not. I mean, as a fan, we just want to watch our team and cheer them on. It shouldn't be so damn hard. But it is right now. Blaming players is what fans should do, but it seems that the coach and players were very comfortable allowing the organization to take all the heat while they underachieved on the ice. The fact that Crawford has them playing better is not a surprise to me. They should be better than they were.

But yes, they have had terrible luck with regards to Hoff/Karl. People want to pin that on the org. I don't agree. Losing team cannot sign pending UFAs. They want to win. Now. Hey , I get it. All I wanted was the org to go to the wall for them. And in this market, I am satisfied that they did.

Any business wants to act in a position of strength. Don't let them see you sweat, right? By doing so, the Senators have allowed themselves to be portrayed as tone deaf, ignorant, poorly run and out of touch. Whoever gave them this advice is a moron. Being contrite sounds like a nice idea, but in this business model, and in this market, I honestly believe it would only fan the flames. But it would have been the right thing long term to do.

I don't doubt that you would have appreciated an apology or an admittance of some sort of bungling something. But I also believe it would only serve to further anger fans, the "ha, i told you so", or belittle the organization further. It truly is a no-win scenario.