The Official Pierre "high five" Dorion Thread | Part IV

[stempniaksen]

4 when you add in Karlsson, but I am not surprised at the posters who are fence sitting. I guess fence sitting is better than defending the org at all costs. Baby steps I guess.

Karlsson was counted as one of the 3 stars, I love Dzingel but he aint there

I think in normal circumstances it's easy to defend the Dzingel deal (among others) they just look bad when it comes after moving out 3 star (superstar in EK's case) players who should be part of any core moving forward (even in a rebuild).

 

[Micklebot]

I can live with those offers. If you can't, fine. Many felt what Stone signed was an overpayment outside of Ottawa. Those offers did not seal the deal, but they were not poor offers. They were in the same ballpark and if the team was in a more stable position, it probably gets them to sign. But they don't want to spend their years waiting for a rebuild that may or may not pan out. And they want as much upfront money as possible. Good on them, and I can live with the offers.

If others can't, that is their right as well.

I don't disagree but didn't you say in another thread not sugning was all about the money, or am i miss-remembering?

At the end of the day, not being able to offer fair compaetitive deals has always been a red herring, we need to hit the floor and sacrifices can be made with other guys like Boedker, Smith, Ceci, ect to fit in our top guys. There is certainly an argument to be made that we couldn't afford to keep them all though, but of course we offered each of them a competitive deal in a vacuum.

 

[coladin]

I don't disagree but didn't you say in another thread not sugning was all about the money, or am i miss-remembering?

At the end of the day, not being able to offer fair compaetitive deals has always been a red herring, we need to hit the floor and sacrifices can be made with other guys like Boedker, Smith, Ceci, ect to fit in our top guys. There is certainly an argument to be made that we couldn't afford to keep them all though, but of course we offered each of them a competitive deal in a vacuum.

Yes, I said that. And we couldn't match their offers. It doesn't mean that the offer from Ottawa was bad. I would have taken the money, coupled with the other things going on in Ottawa. I said initially here that there are other factors at play other than money.

I don't know if that needs to be looked in a vacuum. Like I said, I am satisfied with the level of commitment from management, even if they failed. Everyone here talked about Ottawa not giving bonus money, and I thought the same with this management , that they would not be in a position to offer bonus money. So, I was surprised that they went to nearly 30M. No one else, just me?

If Ottawa offered the exact same deal and bonus money from Vegas, does Mark Stone stay? From his comments, my gut feeling is he does. For him to wait until Friday, it meant that it was about the money. Duchene did not let it twist as long and it looked like a player who wants to play in May. And while Ottawa gave a very good offer, they could not compete with Vegas. And I can live with that. Doesn't mean I am happy and overjoyed. He is the only sweater I have every bought.

They have no choice but to spend money this summer, and will see what and how they do that due to the cap floor. I agree, they could have easily been accommodated but moving non-essential players. Easily. But the players chose to leave and I don't blame them. Careers are short and two to three years of being a cellar dwellar is not going to entice superstars to come here. Or to sign long term at this time.

 

[BatherSeason]

I don't know if that needs to be looked in a vacuum. Like I said, I am satisfied with the level of commitment from management, even if they failed. Everyone here talked about Ottawa not giving bonus money, and I thought the same with this management , that they would not be in a position to offer bonus money. So, I was surprised that they went to nearly 30M. No one else, just me?

Of course they offered it, they knew he wouldn't accept it. Pretty easy to offer something when you know someone will turn it down, then they can run around town telling people that they tried their hardest, they can also have their bots relay the same message on Twitter, HFBoards, etc, and have the Garrioch propaganda machine to push the message. This ownership/management group won't change my mind until bonus money, other than Ryan's is paid out in July. They had to take a loan just to pay Ryan last July.

But the players chose to leave and I don't blame them

Why is it that if the players leave because they aren't happy with management/ownership/direction, that's ok, but if us as fans choose not to support this organization, we are bad fans?

 

[topshelf15]

Yes, I said that. And we couldn't match their offers. It doesn't mean that the offer from Ottawa was bad. I would have taken the money, coupled with the other things going on in Ottawa. I said initially here that there are other factors at play other than money.

I don't know if that needs to be looked in a vacuum. Like I said, I am satisfied with the level of commitment from management, even if they failed. Everyone here talked about Ottawa not giving bonus money, and I thought the same with this management , that they would not be in a position to offer bonus money. So, I was surprised that they went to nearly 30M. No one else, just me?

If Ottawa offered the exact same deal and bonus money from Vegas, does Mark Stone stay? From his comments, my gut feeling is he does. For him to wait until Friday, it meant that it was about the money. Duchene did not let it twist as long and it looked like a player who wants to play in May. And while Ottawa gave a very good offer, they could not compete with Vegas. And I can live with that. Doesn't mean I am happy and overjoyed. He is the only sweater I have every bought.

They have no choice but to spend money this summer, and will see what and how they do that due to the cap floor. I agree, they could have easily been accommodated but moving non-essential players. Easily. But the players chose to leave and I don't blame them. Careers are short and two to three years of being a cellar dwellar is not going to entice superstars to come here. Or to sign long term at this time.

Its always about the money with this team,that is problem number 1 ...We cant build any sort of a competitive team without being able to spend ,on everything not just player salaries...Coaching, scouting ,development etc etc....This team has had two support two failed billionaires now ,and the fans are fed up ....We want an owner that doesnt need to pull money from the team to prop up his own lack of resources...

 

[stempniaksen]

Of course they offered it, they knew he wouldn't accept it.

Ehh, I don't think it's this easy to discount across the board. I think there is a (massive) difference about how the organization went about the EK offer and the Stone/Duchene offers. I think it was pretty clear the team wanted to keep Stone and Duchene (obviously not at any cost, but I at least believe they actually tried to get these two under contract).

Obviously the EK "offer" was an absolute farce, and acting like that was some kind of commitment (financial or otherwise) from the organization feels disingenuous.

The world is filled with shades of grey, I think the "truth" lands somewhere between what you and coladin have posted here.

 

[Sens]

Why is it that if the players leave because they aren't happy with management/ownership/direction, that's ok, but if us as fans choose not to support this organization, we are bad fans?

Looking forward to the answer to this

 

[RaMai]

I can live with those offers. If you can't, fine. Many felt what Stone signed was an overpayment outside of Ottawa. Those offers did not seal the deal, but they were not poor offers. They were in the same ballpark and if the team was in a more stable position, it probably gets them to sign. But they don't want to spend their years waiting for a rebuild that may or may not pan out. And they want as much upfront money as possible. Good on them, and I can live with the offers.

If others can't, that is their right as well.

This shows the doubt you have in this management and ownership, Mark Stone had the same doubts...

 

[coladin]

Of course they offered it, they knew he wouldn't accept it. Pretty easy to offer something when you know someone will turn it down, then they can run around town telling people that they tried their hardest, they can also have their bots relay the same message on Twitter, HFBoards, etc, and have the Garrioch propaganda machine to push the message. This ownership/management group won't change my mind until bonus money, other than Ryan's is paid out in July. They had to take a loan just to pay Ryan last July.


Why is it that if the players leave because they aren't happy with management/ownership/direction, that's ok, but if us as fans choose not to support this organization, we are bad fans?

Who said anything about bad fans? You don't have to support it. At this particular point in time in the franchise 's history, this is where the team is. The team is in this direction for a variety of reasons, for which we have addressed. Losing team, expiring contracts are a bad combination.

I don't know what you are getting at, but you seem to have a hard time accepting where this team is heading. It is going to be bad until the picks hopefully pan out. Having a temper tantrum and calling people names isn't going to change anything.

Do as you please

 

[coladin]

Its always about the money with this team,that is problem number 1 ...We cant build any sort of a competitive team without being able to spend ,on everything not just player salaries...Coaching, scouting ,development etc etc....This team has had two support two failed billionaires now ,and the fans are fed up ....We want an owner that doesnt need to pull money from the team to prop up his own lack of resources...

Pull money? I don't know who started this line, I think it was Sensung of course. I don't see where that has happened.

We cannot compete with the big boys. That won't change so long as this team is in Ottawa. If you successfully rebuild maybe there is a chance.

 

[coladin]

This shows the doubt you have in this management and ownership, Mark Stone had the same doubts...

Ya and? Why wouldn't there be doubts? I am not fan of rebuilds, because by and large they do not work. Said that many times. Am i going to abandon the team over It?

 

[Micklebot]

Yes, I said that. And we couldn't match their offers. It doesn't mean that the offer from Ottawa was bad. I would have taken the money, coupled with the other things going on in Ottawa. I said initially here that there are other factors at play other than money.

I don't know if that needs to be looked in a vacuum. Like I said, I am satisfied with the level of commitment from management, even if they failed. Everyone here talked about Ottawa not giving bonus money, and I thought the same with this management , that they would not be in a position to offer bonus money. So, I was surprised that they went to nearly 30M. No one else, just me?

If Ottawa offered the exact same deal and bonus money from Vegas, does Mark Stone stay? From his comments, my gut feeling is he does. For him to wait until Friday, it meant that it was about the money. Duchene did not let it twist as long and it looked like a player who wants to play in May. And while Ottawa gave a very good offer, they could not compete with Vegas. And I can live with that. Doesn't mean I am happy and overjoyed. He is the only sweater I have every bought.

They have no choice but to spend money this summer, and will see what and how they do that due to the cap floor. I agree, they could have easily been accommodated but moving non-essential players. Easily. But the players chose to leave and I don't blame them. Careers are short and two to three years of being a cellar dwellar is not going to entice superstars to come here. Or to sign long term at this time.

Ok, I was getting mixed messages from you; it was all about the money, but the money was enough to get the deal done had it not been for all the other issues. I get what you're saying now.

 

[5ive4Fighting]

I am actually OK that we don't bend to what are some pretty distorted market conditions in many ways. The huge sums of guaranteed money, lockout protection, 8 year NMCs etc. But if you can't offer that, you have to make it a good place to be in other ways. Money that is both good and fair, a chance at success, good staff, mutual respect & mutual loyalty, workplace amenities, a nice community both inside and outside the arena, and something that feels like a coherent plan etc. Instead we've got org spokespeople that sound like biting on tinfoil feels, veterans waived for little apparent reason and no apparent purpose, Pierre telling us to get a new girlfriend like these players and relationships are expendable, and management sowing general mayhem with hurricane force. That said, people do have to want to be here for something more than the best remuneration package. Surely there are players that would value playing in the capital of a country with hockey in its heart and soul more than they would value screwing off to the desert for better money. I loved Mark Stone, but he's gone now. I wish it had been different, but it wasn't. Onward.

 

[Runback]

Gotta say, given the situation, I think that the early returns on the trades PD have made are really good. I'm pretty optimistic about the future of this team. This should be fun...

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

As an organization they clearly need work outside of just managing the player personnel.

If they would have just taken at least some of the responsibility for what's happened and maybe even an apology, it would have gone so far with so many imo, but this whole time it's been blame blame blame and then lecture fans about what they should want. At least for me it would have gone a long way to see them display some humility instead of the arrogance we've seen.

They really seem to be under the impression this whole thing crumbled for reasons out of their control and I just do not agree with that whatsoever, nor do I appreciate the patronizing pr attempts they've put out there. As much as some of what has happened has come to them honestly, they haven't bought themselves any favor with fans with how they've handled it.

Their PR has been an absolute f***ing shit show disaster almost as destructive as losing beloved players like Karlsson and Stone. Imagine trading a player such as Stone, who is adored by fans and media, and your reaction is to go on radio and tell fans to "get over it and get a new girlfriend."

 

[coladin]

As an organization they clearly need work outside of just managing the player personnel.

If they would have just taken at least some of the responsibility for what's happened and maybe even an apology, it would have gone so far with so many imo, but this whole time it's been blame blame blame and then lecture fans about what they should want. At least for me it would have gone a long way to see them display some humility instead of the arrogance we've seen.

They really seem to be under the impression this whole thing crumbled for reasons out of their control and I just do not agree with that whatsoever, nor do I appreciate the patronizing pr attempts they've put out there. As much as some of what has happened has come to them honestly, they haven't bought themselves any favor with fans with how they've handled it.

Their PR has been an absolute ****ing **** show disaster almost as destructive as losing beloved players like Karlsson and Stone. Imagine trading a player such as Stone, who is adored by fans and media, and your reaction is to go on radio and tell fans to "get over it and get a new girlfriend."

Stone was adored by 4936 STHs. That's it, really.

Apologies don't work and won't work. Money does.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Stone was adored by 4936 STHs. That's it, really.

Apologies don't work and won't work. Money does.

You've made some fair points about low attendance. If their response to low ticket sales is to continue to plug their ears and put their middle finger up, good luck to them.

Apology, humility, honesty, whatever you want to call it, I disagree on the difference it could have made. Their handling of many of these situations has been as problematic as the issues themselves, in my opinion.

 

[Sensmileletsgo]

Gotta say, given the situation, I think that the early returns on the trades PD have made are really good. I'm pretty optimistic about the future of this team. This should be fun...

Outside of Brannstrom, the returns we got are all just draft picks and mediocre prospects. I'm not saying fans shouldn't try to be optimistic, but the only type of optimism we have right now is that we are so close to rock bottom that over the next few season we should have some high first round draft picks coming our way.

 

[topshelf15]

Pull money? I don't know who started this line, I think it was Sensung of course. I don't see where that has happened.

We cannot compete with the big boys. That won't change so long as this team is in Ottawa. If you successfully rebuild maybe there is a chance.

No our owners couldnt....EM and Bryden is and was broke....They didnt and dont have any other tangible source of income other than the team...EM cant realise this market nor grow it ,because he doesnt have the money..This much should be plain as day by now

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

No our owners couldnt....EM and Bryden is and was broke....They didnt and dont have any other tangible source of income other than the team...EM cant realise this market nor grow it ,because he doesnt have the money..This much should be plain as day by now

No owner is going to walk in and say “I am going to spend my few hundred million dollars on Turris, Z-bad, and Karlsson so that my children’s, children’s children will have no money... but so that I can build a team that makes the “wannabe GMs” and fans happier”

Rebuild is the only way with such a small market.

I just hope PD gets the picks we need.

He is a good scout.

So far, no major mistakes... a few, but no one is perfect.

People want a cup more than anything. You have to rebuild... even with endless spending ability, the Leafs rebuilt. They lost for a long time... the fans revolted.

Rinse-repeat

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

Why is it that if the players leave because they aren't happy with management/ownership/direction, that's ok, but if us as fans choose not to support this organization, we are bad fans?

Sheep mentality, brah

 

[Micklebot]

No owner is going to walk in and say “I am going to spend my few hundred million dollars on Turris, Z-bad, and Karlsson so that my children’s, children’s children will have no money... but so that I can build a team that makes the “wannabe GMs” and fans happier”

Rebuild is the only way with such a small market.

I just hope PD gets the picks we need.

He is a good scout.

So far, no major mistakes... a few, but no one is perfect.

People want a cup more than anything. You have to rebuild... even with endless spending ability, the Leafs rebuilt. They lost for a long time... the fans revolted.

Rinse-repeat

The point of rebuilding is to get a player like Karlsson though. Toronto rebuilt to get Matthews. Teams that already have a franchise player don't typically tear it all down, they instead build around their franchise player(s). Washington didn't tear things down to the frame when it wasn't working with Ovechkin, they kept that elite piece and changed the complimentary pieces. Tbay didn't trade Stamkos when they had rough times, they found pieces to support him. The Bruins didn't trade off Marchand, Bergeron, Krejci, Chara when they missed the playoffs two years in a row, they built around those key guys.

The problem with what we are doing is that there is little hope of getting that franchise guy because we're hitting rock bottom (presumably...) in a year we don't have our own pick, and the guys we moved out to get there are young enough to be a part of a winning mix when our prospects are ready to contribute on their ELC and 2nd contracts. Everybody seems to agree that vets are needed for a rebuild or retool; in an ideal world those vets should be young enough to be part of the finished product. Karlsson, Stone, Duchene all were young enough to do so. They could easily have been the core to build around, adding Chabot, Tkachuk, White, Batherson, Brown but, have gone in a different direction. Why did they choose to go that route? Did they not have a choice (players refused to sign with them), did they feel they could be better with the return for those three (Brannstrom, Norris, Tierney, DeMelo, Balcers, Abramov, Davidsson, Lindberg, 2019 1st, 2020 1st, 2019 2nd, 2020 2nd, conditional 1st, conditional 1st or 2nd), some combination of the above?

My suspicion is that this rebuild isn't going as planned. I suspect they wanted to keep Stone and Duchene, maybe even Karlsson, but couldn't convince those guys to sign. Why they wouldn't sign probably is more complicated than just money, or just wanting to win now, but the end result is the same; a team that is forced to go down a path that probably isn't what they envisioned.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

The point of rebuilding is to get a player like Karlsson though. Toronto rebuilt to get Matthews. Teams that already have a franchise player don't typically tear it all down, they instead build around their franchise player(s). Washington didn't tear things down to the frame when it wasn't working with Ovechkin, they kept that elite piece and changed the complimentary pieces. Tbay didn't trade Stamkos when they had rough times, they found pieces to support him. The Bruins didn't trade off Marchand, Bergeron, Krejci, Chara when they missed the playoffs two years in a row, they built around those key guys.

The problem with what we are doing is that there is little hope of getting that franchise guy because we're hitting rock bottom (presumably...) in a year we don't have our own pick, and the guys we moved out to get there are young enough to be a part of a winning mix when our prospects are ready to contribute on their ELC and 2nd contracts. Everybody seems to agree that vets are needed for a rebuild or retool; in an ideal world those vets should be young enough to be part of the finished product. Karlsson, Stone, Duchene all were young enough to do so. They could easily have been the core to build around, adding Chabot, Tkachuk, White, Batherson, Brown but, have gone in a different direction. Why did they choose to go that route? Did they not have a choice (players refused to sign with them), did they feel they could be better with the return for those three (Brannstrom, Norris, Tierney, DeMelo, Balcers, Abramov, Davidsson, Lindberg, 2019 1st, 2020 1st, 2019 2nd, 2020 2nd, conditional 1st, conditional 1st or 2nd), some combination of the above?

My suspicion is that this rebuild isn't going as planned. I suspect they wanted to keep Stone and Duchene, maybe even Karlsson, but couldn't convince those guys to sign. Why they wouldn't sign probably is more complicated than just money, or just wanting to win now, but the end result is the same; a team that is forced to go down a path that probably isn't what they envisioned.

I agree with you last paragraph, 100%. Not as planned. Though I am beginning to believe it may have been a good decision to move EK.

 

[Micklebot]

I agree with you last paragraph, 100%. Not as planned. Though I am beginning to believe it may have been a good decision to move EK.

People might have thought it was a good idea to trade Alfredsson when he was 27 based on his injury history at the time; he went on to have 8 of his best years. I think it's a gamble anytime you sign an 7 to 8 year contract with 28 year old, but I don't know that it's really all that predictable one way or the other.

 

[Stylizer1]

Was Dorion a genius for getting rid of Turris, Methot, Karlsson, Phaneuf, and Brassard seeing how their careers have stagnated?