The Official Pierre "high five" Dorion Thread | Part III

[L'Aveuglette]

I don't think any GM has ever worked so long and hard to accomplish so little.

 

[JD1]

Doesn’t matter really. Burrows was so bad Dorion had to buy him out. Shameful that he traded for him with an extension.

Sadly, the Zibanejad trade is much worse.

Its been reported many times that trade doesn't happen without that extension. Dorion has made some blunders but that particular trade helped us have a good run...

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

Its been reported many times that trade doesn't happen without that extension. Dorion has made some blunders but that particular trade helped us have a good run...

Then don't make the trade. Super simple stuff. You could find a guy off the street to contribute more than Burrows. It was an awful trade from day one.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Its been reported many times that trade doesn't happen without that extension. Dorion has made some blunders but that particular trade helped us have a good run...

So. We’re the only team willing to give burrows an extension. Therefore we are literally vancouvers only option. And they still extract max value for him? It was a shocking trade and honestly I would not be surprised if anyone in theborgs only viewings of burrows were the time he played us.

 

[BondraTime]

Rising up who's charts? The fan base's chart?

I would think that a guy just drafted in the 2nd round at 42nd overall, who since being drafted had put up over a ppg (39 in 38) in the Allsvenskan and scored 5 goals in the World Juniors would have seen his stock since the draft rise.


They thought highly enough of him to draft him 42nd overall, and from that draft until the trade, Dahlen did nothing but exceed everyone's expectations. He was definitely rising on charts.

 

[IlTerrifico]

Its been reported many times that trade doesn't happen without that extension. Dorion has made some blunders but that particular trade helped us have a good run...

Yes those 5 assists in 15 games with no more hint of being an agitator were crucial to those playoffs. If we'd only played another 10 games or so, I'm sure he might even have had a goal bounce in off his shin pad.

Then again, he did have 400% more points than Cody Ceci that playoff....

 

[Silencio]

Many of his trades look bad at first to the uninitiated

"...but we are initiated, aren't we Bruce?"
-Dorion to Garrioch

(Sorry couldn't resist.)

 

[JD1]

I would think that a guy just drafted in the 2nd round at 42nd overall, who since being drafted had put up over a ppg (39 in 38) in the Allsvenskan and scored 5 goals in the World Juniors would have seen his stock since the draft rise.


They thought highly enough of him to draft him 42nd overall, and from that draft until the trade, Dahlen did nothing but exceed everyone's expectations. He was definitely rising on charts.

We disagree on that player and the league. Remember the ciau discussion?

I don't have anything against the kid....but i do remember PD's 20 or so minute interview on 1200 where he went thru a long list of guys we had at the tjme and identifying Dahlen as our 8th internally ranked prospect.

If he was rising at the time....has he fallen since?

 

[BondraTime]

We disagree on that player and the league. Remember the ciau discussion?

I don't have anything against the kid....but i do remember PD's 20 or so minute interview on 1200 where he went thru a long list of guys we had at the tjme and identifying Dahlen as our 8th internally ranked prospect.

If he was rising at the time....has he fallen since?

Depends on your definition of falling.

Since the trade he's won the MVP, playoff scoring, playoff MVP, led his team to the SHL, and then come over to NA and put up a Chlapik like rookie season thus far. I'd say he is right about on track with what he was doing before being traded.

 

[inthewings]

We disagree on that player and the league. Remember the ciau discussion?

I don't have anything against the kid....but i do remember PD's 20 or so minute interview on 1200 where he went thru a long list of guys we had at the tjme and identifying Dahlen as our 8th internally ranked prospect.

If he was rising at the time....has he fallen since?

He has 31 points in 52 career games in the AHL, while adjusting to smaller ice. Certainly more valuable right now than Alex Burrows.

 

[SPF6ty9]

"...but we are initiated, aren't we Bruce?"
-Dorion to Garrioch

(Sorry couldn't resist.)

Members of the league of middle aged balding men?

Even a constraint free Dorion I would have a hard time seeing him rise out of the lower tier of GMs. But, I'll take him all day over Chiarelli.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Even as like the one supporter of the Burrows trade at the time and feeling like he was decent down the stretch for us, it was obviously ridiculous to be willing to give that extension. Should have walked away the moment that came up. In hindsight it was a bad trade made worse by having to buy him out.

 

[topshelf15]

Even as like the one supporter of the Burrows trade at the time and feeling like he was decent down the stretch for us, it was obviously ridiculous to be willing to give that extension. Should have walked away the moment that came up. In hindsight it was a bad trade made worse by having to buy him out.

PD got bluffed,by a rival GM and bit hook line and sinker

 

[God Says No]

PD got bluffed,by a rival GM and bit hook line and sinker

And by all accounts a GM that gets bodied in every move, except this one. VAN posters were amazed.

Kind of tells you something about Dorion. I think the pattern here is that Dorion has his unicorns, and he'll do anything to get them. I believe Burrows was one of these. I'm pretty sure Dorion thought Burrows was going to replace MacCarthur.

 

[topshelf15]

And by all accounts a GM that gets bodied in every move, except this one. VAN posters were amazed.

Kind of tells you something about Dorion. I think the pattern here is that Dorion has his unicorns, and he'll do anything to get them. I believe Burrows was one of these. I'm pretty sure Dorion thought Burrows was going to replace MacCarthur.

Yep that is just tragic for us ,we have a indecisive and weak GM ...And is going to be in charge of completely gutting the team

 

[Ice-Tray]

We definitely are a sinking ship. My defending Dorion's very spotty track record isn't meant to mean I think things aren't that bad. I just feel the need to try to counter balance the, at times, crushing negativity.

The Senators are in for a good decade or more of treading water. It started with us not being able to retain Hossa and the trend has kept up: Heatley, Spezza, Alfredsson, Turris, Karlsson and now Stone/Duchene.

This is going from 2005 to now. This franchise has absolutely no credibility whatsoever. Even Edmonton has more. It's going to take a long, long time to stop sucking and even longer time to get back into the hunt for a Cup.

Most of us know this. I have come to terms with it. I still love hockey and I still love the Sens so I don't want this place to turn into an endless circle jerk of sadness.

Too late... our only hope is that after a year and a half some folks will eithe drift away to more enjoyable hobbies, or come to grips and enjoy the team for what it is.

 

[coladin]

I think people make a mountain out of a molehill about the Burrows trade, imo. He was and still would be far down the depth chart. Already passed by the lastest picks. In hindsight, had some crucial plays in crucial games.

I am more concerned with the saga of the Duchene trade. if he cannot sign him, that will be an historically bad blunder, probably right up there with Yashin for Spezza , Chara and Muckalt.

 

[JD1]

Depends on your definition of falling.

Since the trade he's won the MVP, playoff scoring, playoff MVP, led his team to the SHL, and then come over to NA and put up a Chlapik like rookie season thus far. I'd say he is right about on track with what he was doing before being traded.

When he was traded, the hype here was he had progressed to being equivalent to a mid 1st rounder. I think that notion is dead. When he was traded his numbers where benefitting from the Petterson effect. At this stage he is a project, not unlike a lot of prospects.

I wouldn't consider his rookie season similar to Chlapik. Chlapik led Belleville in scoring and was not insulated by vets. Dahlen has a bunch of older guys in front of him on that Utica team and the one thing he leads the team in is +/- unfortunately on the minus side.

Time will tell what kind of player he becomes. He isn't lighting the A on fire and as a smaller winger, if he can't play top 6 minutes there may never be a career for him in the NHL.

 

[Ice-Tray]

So speaking of crushing negativity

I don't think the franchise was unable to retain Hossa. A little too much revisionism in that statement for me. He was signed and then traded. A dick move i agree with, but i didn't think it was a retention issue. Heatley came in and had, by far, this franchise's best 3 season run in terms of goal scoring and we made a cup final.

I also do not think that the Alfie and Spezza situations were retention related. The Alfie situation was a mess for sure but i don't think it was a retention issue. Spezza was older with chronic back issues and wanted out.

Turris was not a retention issue either. I look at that as a hockey decision. That player on that contract. No thank you. I get he was a great community guy but not signing him to a 6 by 6 deal was an astute move imo. Isn't Nashville in on the Duchene sweepstakes? Doesn't that say to you that they don't see Turris as a 2c on a cup contender ? And if there interedt in Duchene doesn't say that for you, look at his numbera in the 80 games at Nadhville since his hot start.

Stone, Duchene and Dzingle are 100% retention issues. Unfortunately, the **** show over the past two years has us at the point where guys won't sign. And it's not even entirely our **** show either...,that team down the 401 is using its financial might in a way that is causing problems for the league, not just us. The most credible stuff on Stone has the hold up based on bonus money. Toronto created that problem, not Melnyk. Wind it back two years and sure guys were getting some bonus money but what's happened in the past 18 months with signing bonuses is too much and will need to be addressed.

Inability to retain in the last 2 years. Sure i agree with that.

Since 2005. No. That's not true at all.

Bang on. In addition, it’s been reported that Nashville and Winnipeg don’t do massive bonus money deals either, as an example, and some teams don’t offer anything beyond limited NTC, and yet we get slammed relentlessly for not following along with ‘the NHL trend’ (which is not a trend but an outlier) while other teams that don’t do it are model franchises. Guys in here make me laugh at how angry they get about how someone else spends their money, knowing damn well they would NEVER guarantee a guy a full years salary for no work either.

The truth is, the bonus money is rediculous, and most teams should absolutely balk at making that the norm. TO does it because they make a massive profit year to year and have money to burn and outgun the rest of the league. LA is also a huge market. I doubt we’ll see a JT level bonus deals become the norm amongst the medium and small markets; It’s a bonus, not your salary.

In addition, the next CBA will likely be a battle on that front, and I certainly don’t want us on the wrong side of it. Salaries and prices are already so far out of control.

 

[JD1]

I think people make a mountain out of a molehill about the Burrows trade, imo. He was and still would be far down the depth chart. Already passed by the lastest picks. In hindsight, had some crucial plays in crucial games.

I am more concerned with the saga of the Duchene trade. if he cannot sign him, that will be an historically bad blunder, probably right up there with Yashin for Spezza , Chara and Muckalt.

I agree. I would prefer of the 3 that we sign Duchene

 

[BondraTime]

When he was traded, the hype here was he had progressed to being equivalent to a mid 1st rounder. I think that notion is dead. When he was traded his numbers where benefitting from the Petterson effect. At this stage he is a project, not unlike a lot of prospects.

I wouldn't consider his rookie season similar to Chlapik. Chlapik led Belleville in scoring and was not insulated by vets. Dahlen has a bunch of older guys in front of him on that Utica team and the one thing he leads the team in is +/- unfortunately on the minus side.

Time will tell what kind of player he becomes. He isn't lighting the A on fire and as a smaller winger, if he can't play top 6 minutes there may never be a career for him in the NHL.

Dahlen led the league in points per game and finished 2nd in the league in scoring the year after Petterson left Timra. Dahlen led his team in scoring by 16 points in 8 less games, I'm sure he was being helped by Petterson, everyone would be, but he had a better season the year after without Petterson.

He was valued as an early/mid 2nd by our scouts (1st rounder if you believe the post draft recaps by the team), and I see no way in which that value hadn't increased towards that of a playoff contenders 1st round pick/ very high 2nd after scoring at a ppg and having a great World Juniors.

Next year will be the telling time, a 20/21 year old coming to NA for the first time is very often an adjustment period, Chlapik is only a few months older than Dahlen and is in his 4th year in NA.

 

[topshelf15]

Think I would purposely,miss the high five and give PD the accidently on purpose bag shot.....

 

[Do Make Say Think]

So speaking of crushing negativity

I don't think the franchise was unable to retain Hossa. A little too much revisionism in that statement for me. He was signed and then traded. A dick move i agree with, but i didn't think it was a retention issue. Heatley came in and had, by far, this franchise's best 3 season run in terms of goal scoring and we made a cup final.

I also do not think that the Alfie and Spezza situations were retention related. The Alfie situation was a mess for sure but i don't think it was a retention issue. Spezza was older with chronic back issues and wanted out.

Turris was not a retention issue either. I look at that as a hockey decision. That player on that contract. No thank you. I get he was a great community guy but not signing him to a 6 by 6 deal was an astute move imo. Isn't Nashville in on the Duchene sweepstakes? Doesn't that say to you that they don't see Turris as a 2c on a cup contender ? And if there interedt in Duchene doesn't say that for you, look at his numbera in the 80 games at Nadhville since his hot start.

Stone, Duchene and Dzingle are 100% retention issues. Unfortunately, the **** show over the past two years has us at the point where guys won't sign. And it's not even entirely our **** show either...,that team down the 401 is using its financial might in a way that is causing problems for the league, not just us. The most credible stuff on Stone has the hold up based on bonus money. Toronto created that problem, not Melnyk. Wind it back two years and sure guys were getting some bonus money but what's happened in the past 18 months with signing bonuses is too much and will need to be addressed.

Inability to retain in the last 2 years. Sure i agree with that.

Since 2005. No. That's not true at all.

We wanted to keep every single one of them and, outside of Heatley, they all wanted to stay to some degree. Not all of these situations are comparable 1:1 and Heatley was a beast for us so despite us not being able to keep Hossa, it did turn out ok. But we still wanted to keep Hossa, Hossa wanted to stay (he signed!) but.... We couldn't.

Not always for the same reasons: Hossa was money, Heatley... well we'll never know for sure, Turris was that we wanted an upgrade but couldn't keep Turris as well etc... This team has a serious talent retention problem.

Now, we aren't alone in this. Plenty of other teams have similar issues and have budgets. I'm just talking about a pattern and the pattern goes back to 2005 with Hossa signing a deal and us trading him almost right away because we wanted to go cheaper.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Not going to be happy to lose Duchene, I was super stoked on that deal and have been heavily rewarded as a fan by his play here.

Ah well, shit happens. I support the organization not paying out massive bonuses, as our market can’t afford that kind of circumvention.

I can also understand why guys would balk at sticking around for a rebuild, but it sure would be nice if EM hadn’t ruined his name and his words can’t be taken at face value.

Hopefully this new cash injection heralds in new ownership or partnership, and we can all at the very least not bicker over finances any more.

 

[JD1]

We wanted to keep every single one of them and, outside of Heatley, they all wanted to stay to some degree. Not all of these situations are comparable 1:1 and Heatley was a beast for us so despite us not being able to keep Hossa, it did turn out ok. But we still wanted to keep Hossa, Hossa wanted to stay (he signed!) but.... We couldn't.

Not always for the same reasons: Hossa was money, Heatley... well we'll never know for sure, Turris was that we wanted an upgrade but couldn't keep Turris as well etc... This team has a serious talent retention problem.

Now, we aren't alone in this. Plenty of other teams have similar issues and have budgets. I'm just talking about a pattern and the pattern goes back to 2005 with Hossa signing a deal and us trading him almost right away because we wanted to go cheaper.

we signed Hossa to a 3 year deal and traded him the next day. it was an ass hole move on muckler's end. it had nothing to do with retention.