The Office of Strategic Planning - Tank Talk

[thestonedkoala]

No players tank. Tanking is not a players game. It’s a management game.

Players also compete. Parise, Suter, Staal, Zuccs aren't going to just not show up every night, which is why the team blew out Dallas the other night. How do you actively get players not to win games? Are we going to go all Major League Cleveland Indians on the team and start taking away their facilities and amenities?

 

[AKL]

So we can put Spurgeon in the same category

I don’t like the length and trade protection in regards to Spurgeon either, although he’s a top pairing, borderline 1RD historically. I can’t help but feel like Fenton probably shopped for a trade for him last year, and apparently didn’t find anything he deemed an acceptable return.

The Spurgeon situation isn’t ideal, but the Zuccarello one is just flat out bad. Spurgeon is still a top pair defenseman right now, and he’s on pace for almost 40 points again I believe. Zuccarello is historically a 55-60 point left handed winger who doesn’t really provide much if he’s not providing offense, and he’s been a complete passenger this season. That kind of player should not be given 30M over 5 years along with a NMC, especially with the expansion draft coming up.

 

[Bazeek]

I still don’t understand how Guerin approaching the players violates contracts.

I still don’t understand why we’re talking about this. None of these guys are getting moved.

It'd probably depend on how he approached them.

"Hey Mats, I've got **** to do and you and your stupid contract are in the way. I need you to waive so I can get you out of here."

"Hey Mats, I just traded Zucker, Brodin and Staal for draft picks and we're probably in for 2-3 really rough years. I know you have a full no-move, but if this isn't something you anticipated when you signed I'm willing to see if there's a better situation for you out there."

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

I haven't heard of many GM's doing that, and I'm not even sure if the league would accept it. Those clauses, when given by a team, are to be respected.

And btw...what makes you think Guerin wants to get rid of Zuccarello? The Wild are pleased with his efforts, and his teammates love him. He's certainly not the biggest problem around here.

Of course the league would accept it. NTC and NMC clauses are waived all of the time.

 

[Webster]

Agreed but we already had veteran leadership for years to come because of Fletcher. Bringing in Zucc for “veteran leadership” was not the case and completely superfluous

Zuccarello was an alternate captain for the Rangers, and their fans wanted (and still want) to have him and put the C on his chest.

But the Wild went after him because they needed a playmaker. If you want more points out of him, give him better linemates...

 

[MuckOG]

Players also compete. Parise, Suter, Staal, Zuccs aren't going to just not show up every night, which is why the team blew out Dallas the other night. How do you actively get players not to win games? Are we going to go all Major League Cleveland Indians on the team and start taking away their facilities and amenities?

Neither the players nor the coaching staff (especially THIS coaching staff) would ever "tank" a game/season voluntarily. In this context, tanking could mean not doing anything that makes this team better in the short term and moving a few pieces (ie Zucker, Brodin, etc.) that might also hurt in the short term, but improve the lottery odds.

 

[AKL]

Will of course have something to say. But a player signs a contract with the NHL, not the club. The league will make sure that contracts are being followed.

If the player opts to waive his NMC, then the contract is being followed.

 

[AKL]

Zuccarello was an alternate captain for the Rangers, and their fans wanted (and still want) to have him and put the C on his chest.

But the Wild went after him because they needed a playmaker. If you want more points out of him, give him better linemates...

Both of his linemates to start the year were better than him. He’s the problem, not his linemates. Granlund had no problem with those players.

If he needs Mika Zibanejad or Tyler Seguin to carry him to 55 points, that’s all the proof you need to see that he isn’t worth his contract.

 

[thestonedkoala]

Neither the players nor the coaching staff (especially THIS coaching staff) would ever "tank" a game/season voluntarily. In this context, tanking could mean not doing anything that makes this team better in the short term and moving a few pieces (ie Zucker, Brodin, etc.) that might also hurt in the short term, but improve the lottery odds.

Possibly, but I still see them winning a fair share of games simply because the veterans won't give up. The worst case scenario for Minnesota is a 12-14 pick, which might happen given the veteran group.

 

[Webster]

I still don’t understand why we’re talking about this. None of these guys are getting moved.

True enough.

I'm wasting my time discussing Zuccarello and possible trades. Because he's here to stay.

 

[AKL]

Possibly, but I still see them winning a fair share of games simply because the veterans won't give up. The worst case scenario for Minnesota is a 12-14 pick, which might happen given the veteran group.

The veterans have us picking 7th right now after 50 games.

It’s Eriksson Ek that’s going to have us picking outside the top 10.

 

[thestonedkoala]

The veterans have us picking 7th right now after 50 games.

It’s Eriksson Ek that’s going to have us picking outside the top 10.

Not really; the first couple of games were rough, because none of the rookies were gelling and they were struggling to find chemistry. It's been uneven because we have no secondary scoring.

 

[AKL]

Not really; the first couple of games were rough, because none of the rookies were gelling and they were struggling to find chemistry. It's been uneven because we have no secondary scoring.

I’d argue we have only secondary scoring and no primary scoring.

 

[thestonedkoala]

I’d argue we have only secondary scoring and no primary scoring.

The only player under 26 that has been scoring is Kunin and he has 12 goals. Fiala is 9 goals, Donato is 9 goals, Greenway is 5 goals, Eriksson-Ek is 4 goals. Oh and Hartman has 6 goals. All together they have 45 goals. Parise, Staal, Zucker and Zuccarello have 60 goals all together. The veterans have been scoring.

 

[Bazeek]

The only player under 26 that has been scoring is Kunin and he has 12 goals. Fiala is 9 goals, Donato is 9 goals, Greenway is 5 goals, Eriksson-Ek is 4 goals. Oh and Hartman has 6 goals. All together they have 45 goals. Parise, Staal, Zucker and Zuccarello have 60 goals all together. The veterans have been scoring.

With the exception of Fiala, Parise/Staal/Zucker/Zuccarello also get 4-5 times as much powerplay time as Donato/Greenway/Kunin/Ek. I'm a little surprised that the gap is only 15 goals.

If you just look at EV and SH goals...

Staal - 11
Parise - 10
Zucker - 8
Zuccarello - 9

Fiala - 7
Kunin - 12
Donato - 9
Greenway - 5
Ek - 4

 

[AKL]

If you look at even strength points it gets a hell of a lot closer still.

 

[TaLoN]

Seems like a lot of those goals were set up by the same guy, Granlund. That was a nice power play combo for sure, Granlund to Dumba for the 1 timer.

Kaprizov is coming soon

 

[AKL]

Kaprizov is coming soon

He’s not going to fill Granlund’s role, if that’s what you’re hoping for.

 

[TaLoN]

He’s not going to fill Granlund’s role, if that’s what you’re hoping for.

Never said he would, but he has good vision and is a good playmaker as well as a shooter. He could be a much better all around player... making plays for both himself and others.

 

[AKL]

Never said he would, but he has good vision and is a good playmaker as well as a shooter. He could be a much better all around player... making plays for both himself and others.

Yeah he could but not in the same way that Granlund did. Not on the PP like Granlund and Dumba did.

Your post implied you thought that.

 

[TaLoN]

Yeah he could but not in the same way that Granlund did. Not on the PP like Granlund and Dumba did.

Your post implied you thought that.

My post implies that Kap is capable of those kind of passes. He very much is.

 

[AKL]

My post implies that Kap is capable of those kind of passes. He very much is.

Yes, he is capable of them.

 

[16thOverallSaveUs]

Not sure how anyone could look at this team and think that we’re going to pick 12-14. Outside of a 6 week stretch where we were shooting well above a maintainable rate, we’ve been the 2nd worst team in the league. Our goaltending is bottom 3 in the entire league and our forwards are middle ground, at best. We simply aren’t a good team, and we win games by outworking teams. If a team isn’t willing to push back against us, we’ll walk all over them (see Dallas), but as the points get more and more important, that starts to happen less. Like I said, 7-9th is where I see us picking. If we trade Zucker and Brodin, maybe we win 6 of the last 20 and make a push for top 5. I think losing Brodin would be the biggest blow in terms of expected wins lost.

 

[TaLoN]

Yes, he is capable of them.

The more skill we bring in, the more opportunities will be created. You don't think Dumba will continue shooting 2.5%, do you? Kap will help, as will others we bring in, along with Dumba progressing back up to the mean... he WILL rebound.

 

[Bazeek]

Kaprizov's also a much more credible shooting threat than Granlund is. One of the reasons Granny had to pull off those ridiculous cross-ice saucer passes was because the goalie didn't need to respect him very much. Kaprizov's a different story.