The Office of Strategic Planning - Tank Talk

[MuckOG]

I could see Zuccarello possibly making a good line combination with Kaprizov next year. He can definitely create opportunities for other players.

 

[fentonsbrainchild]

I could see Zuccarello possibly making a good line combination with Kaprizov next year. He can definitely create opportunities for other players.

They’ll both likely be playing RW

 

[16thOverallSaveUs]

It would be incredible to lose to Detroit because we’re gearing into a by-week meaning essentially 5 days of the rest of the NHL playing, moving up the standings

 

[Bazeek]

It would be incredible to lose to Detroit because we’re gearing into a by-week meaning essentially 5 days of the rest of the NHL playing, moving up the standings

Which is only meaningful if the season ends after the bye week.

Regardless of one's thoughts regarding tanking, the bottom of the standings this year are going to look a lot like last year: one outlier at the very bottom (Detroit) and then #30 and #20 being separated by 10-12 points. Where we sit in February isn't going to mean much, even without the lottery accounted for.

 

[thestonedkoala]

I don't see the veterans tanking. Do we purposely shut down Suter and Parise for the reason of the season after the All-Star Break? Do we remove Captaincy from Koivu as that'd be a great way to get tanking. And what about next season?

 

[AKL]

I don't see the veterans tanking. Do we purposely shut down Suter and Parise for the reason of the season after the All-Star Break? Do we remove Captaincy from Koivu as that'd be a great way to get tanking. And what about next season?

No players tank. Tanking is not a players game. It’s a management game.

 

[AKL]

Give it a break please. Guerin will not approach these players, it has to do with respect. They have to come to him if they want to leave. And in Zuccarello's case he'll stay. He just bought a property here, so he's not going anywhere no matter what happens to the team.

Guerin can and should approach Zuccarello about waiving. Doesn’t mean he will, but that’s absolutely within Guerin’s boundaries to do as a GM.

 

[Bazeek]

No players tank. Tanking is not a players game. It’s a management game.

In practice it's not really a management game either. When was the last time a GM actively hobbled his team in an effort to get a high pick? Tim Murray chasing McDavid? Even rebuilding teams don't really try to get worse beyond the natural consequences of trading players for futures.

The Rangers straight up wrote a letter to their fans announcing a rebuild and even they've done things like signing Panarin and trading for Trouba. Detroit's a mess largely due to fallout from trying to be competitive for years. Ottawa's the result of a pretty singular confluence of internal drama on top of a single bad trade.

Tanking is a forum game.

 

[AKL]

In practice it's not really a management game either. When was the last time a GM actively hobbled his team in an effort to get a high pick? Tim Murray chasing McDavid? Even rebuilding teams don't really try to get worse beyond the natural consequences of trading players for futures.

The Rangers straight up wrote a letter to their fans announcing a rebuild and even they've done things like signing Panarin and trading for Trouba. Detroit's a mess largely due to fallout from trying to be competitive for years. Ottawa's the result of a pretty singular confluence of internal drama on top of a single bad trade.

Tanking is a forum game.

Tanking doesn’t mean selling off every single asset you have and not signing or trading for anyone that can help your team.

If Guerin is selling off Brodin and Zucker for futures and in an attempt to increase our draft stock, we’re still tanking.

Tanking is the intention of making moves to try to get a better draft pick.

 

[16thOverallSaveUs]

Which is only meaningful if the season ends after the bye week.

Regardless of one's thoughts regarding tanking, the bottom of the standings this year are going to look a lot like last year: one outlier at the very bottom (Detroit) and then #30 and #20 being separated by 10-12 points. Where we sit in February isn't going to mean much, even without the lottery accounted for.

Everyone plays the same amount of games, so you’re right in the long run it doesn’t mean anything. But coming back and being 4 points behind the next team would be mentally deflating. Could also prompt Guerin to start aggressively selling

 

[AKL]

Everyone plays the same amount of games, so you’re right in the long run it doesn’t mean anything. But coming back and being 4 points behind the next team would be mentally deflating. Could also prompt Guerin to start aggressively selling

The longer we can stay further behind the pack, the more justified Guerin is in selling off Brodin and Zucker. If we’re in a wild card spot, and Guerin trades those guys for futures, the fanbase might riot, even if it is the right move.

 

[16thOverallSaveUs]

In practice it's not really a management game either. When was the last time a GM actively hobbled his team in an effort to get a high pick? Tim Murray chasing McDavid? Even rebuilding teams don't really try to get worse beyond the natural consequences of trading players for futures.

The Rangers straight up wrote a letter to their fans announcing a rebuild and even they've done things like signing Panarin and trading for Trouba. Detroit's a mess largely due to fallout from trying to be competitive for years. Ottawa's the result of a pretty singular confluence of internal drama on top of a single bad trade.

Tanking is a forum game.

This sounds oddly familiar

 

[16thOverallSaveUs]

You see a few teams every year embrace the tank. What they can do is sell of assets to try and increase draft-position and their prospect pool. What they can’t do is scratch star players and openly try and lose games. That is not a good idea for many reasons.

 

[Webster]

Guerin can and should approach Zuccarello about waiving. Doesn’t mean he will, but that’s absolutely within Guerin’s boundaries to do as a GM.

I haven't heard of many GM's doing that, and I'm not even sure if the league would accept it. Those clauses, when given by a team, are to be respected.

And btw...what makes you think Guerin wants to get rid of Zuccarello? The Wild are pleased with his efforts, and his teammates love him. He's certainly not the biggest problem around here.

 

[AKL]

I haven't heard of many GM's doing that, and I'm not even sure if the league would accept it. Those clauses, when given by a team, are to be respected.

And btw...what makes you think Guerin wants to get rid of Zuccarello? The Wild are pleased with his efforts, and his teammates love him. He's certainly not the biggest problem around here.

His contract is an issue, and he’s certainly done nothing to be worth it.

 

[AKL]

If Zuccarello had been given 4 years at 5M per with no NMC it would be an okay contract.

As it stands, he’s on pace for 47 points, and this is supposed to be his best year. As he gets older, I doubt he’s going to find another gear. If it’s downhill from here? That contract is going to get ugly sooner rather than later.

He was a guy that was given a certain contract and role that he hasn’t been good enough in.

 

[Webster]

His contract is an issue, and he’s certainly done nothing to be worth it.

Good thing it's the team's opinion that counts, and not yours.

Any long term contract to an older player can become an issue, but that's a part of the game.
Teams need veteran experience and leadership.

 

[Bazeek]

Tanking doesn’t mean selling off every single asset you have and not signing or trading for anyone that can help your team.

If Guerin is selling off Brodin and Zucker for futures and in an attempt to increase our draft stock, we’re still tanking.

Tanking is the intention of making moves to try to get a better draft pick.

I agree with the bolded, but I also don't think this is something that GMs actually do.

Let's say Guerin had futures-only offers for Brodin and Zucker that weren't quite what he wanted, but he considered a higher draft pick the Greater Good. So he sucks it up and makes two underwhelming trades to facilitate the greater goal of a top-5 pick, because losing those players is considered valuable and makes up the disparity.

But who's to say that Soucy and Donato/Greenway don't step into the vacated spots and perform strongly down the stretch? Is that any less likely than Brodin/Zucker being poor down the stretch? Even if aiming for the high pick is worthwhile, has Guerin actually improved his chances of getting it?

This seems to be how GMs actually operate. You see them sell players for futures but the goal there is to get the futures, not make the team worse. Again, except for some of the stuff Buffalo pulled years ago I can't think of a single trade that appeared to be "making moves to get a better draft pick."

The draft is structured to provide a feedback loop for the worst teams to have the best shot at injecting high-end talent, because it helps to make rebuilding a viable strategy. But it's also structured to make gaming that feedback loop pyrrhic at best.

That may all seem like six of one and a half-dozen of the other, but when it comes to trades I think it's an important distinction. Guerin shouldn't and in all likelihood won't make trades to improve the team's draft position. He may very well make trades that result in that incidentally.

 

[MuckOG]

I haven't heard of many GM's doing that, and I'm not even sure if the league would accept it. Those clauses, when given by a team, are to be respected.

And btw...what makes you think Guerin wants to get rid of Zuccarello? The Wild are pleased with his efforts, and his teammates love him. He's certainly not the biggest problem around here.

I think the players association would have more of an issue with this than the league.

 

[fentonsbrainchild]

I haven't heard of many GM's doing that, and I'm not even sure if the league would accept it. Those clauses, when given by a team, are to be respected.

And btw...what makes you think Guerin wants to get rid of Zuccarello? The Wild are pleased with his efforts, and his teammates love him. He's certainly not the biggest problem around here.

Most of what GM’s do doesn’t get released to the public so that would make sense you haven’t heard of GM’s doing it before. And what in the CBA would stop a GM from approaching a player?

Regardless this is a non-starter topic because non of the NMC guys are waiving

 

[AKL]

Good thing it's the team's opinion that counts, and not yours.

Any long term contract to an older player can become an issue, but that's a part of the game.
Teams need veteran experience and leadership.

Teams need to not overpay 32 year old 45-50 point wingers and not give them NMC’s too.

You can get veteran experience and leadership without handing out a bad contract.

 

[fentonsbrainchild]

Teams need to not overpay 32 year old 45-50 point wingers and not give them NMC’s too.

You can get veteran experience and leadership without handing out a bad contract.

Agreed but we already had veteran leadership for years to come because of Fletcher. Bringing in Zucc for “veteran leadership” was not the case and completely superfluous

 

[Mickey the mouse]

If Zuccarello had been given 4 years at 5M per with no NMC it would be an okay contract.

As it stands, he’s on pace for 47 points, and this is supposed to be his best year. As he gets older, I doubt he’s going to find another gear. If it’s downhill from here? That contract is going to get ugly sooner rather than later.

He was a guy that was given a certain contract and role that he hasn’t been good enough in.

So we can put Spurgeon in the same category

 

[Webster]

I think the players association would have more of an issue with this than the league.

Will of course have something to say. But a player signs a contract with the NHL, not the club. The league will make sure that contracts are being followed.

 

[fentonsbrainchild]

Will of course have something to say. But a player signs a contract with the NHL, not the club. The league will make sure that contracts are being followed.

I still don’t understand how Guerin approaching the players violates contracts.

I still don’t understand why we’re talking about this. None of these guys are getting moved.