The Management Thread - Time is a Flat Circle

[ProstheticConscience]

maybe he didn't have that freedom as AGM. As GM he has control. Not sure why thats controversial.

Well, if he really did have some great system, why wouldn't Boston have wanted to utilize it?

 

[Fatass]

That would be a palatable thing. Ottawa just makes so much sense as a trade partner for this kind of move.... probably means its a no-go. But if we could package Sutter and Rafferty together that would be ideal imo.

And Gaudette with Loui. But a properly managed cap (especially during a rebuilding phase) shouldn’t require depleting our young player group to dump old guys we should never have signed to term.

 

[Hoghandler]

Did the local media ever follow up on that story about Benning being unhappy with our scouts after the Jared McCann selection? Seems strange he would be unhappy with that pick considering of the 50 picks taken after McCann, only 1 has a higher career point total than Jared.

What do we make of that story? Why would Benning give it to the scouts over that pick?

 

[I am toxic]

So Benning wasn't responsible for Boston's scouting as AGM, but he's responsible for the Canucks' drafting as GM. Apparently he can do two jobs here, though.

Wait. PoM made up more than one fairytale in that post. Benning had to be over-ruled by Linden to get Petterson.

That's the thing with BS - it takes less time to spew it than to call it out.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

What on earth?

Benning oversaw the scouting arm of the organization in Boston (remember Chiarelli is a marketing/business guy with no scouting background) and would have had less on his plate in Boston than he did here. It should theoretically have been *easier* for him to implement his Magic System there.

For the record, though, I (and every other NHL GM who has commented on the subject) agree you can't do two jobs and the scouting director should run the draft.



Benning liked Pettersson well enough but preferred Glass.



By the Ferraro link you yourself posted a few pages back, Benning didn't start implementing any of his ideas until September 2014. The 2014 draft (outside of Virtanen) was essentially a Gillis/Crawford draft as Benning himself has admitted he stood back and watched the process to evaluate. Interestingly, the mid rounds of that draft are better than anything that happened later. 2019 is too soon to judge - we don't know anything and I honestly have no feel for whether that was a good or bad draft. 2015-18 are the Benning drafts we have a reasonable feel on.

And the results 2015-18 absolutely suck outside of Judd Brackett's personal work and our drafting in the USHL.



I've tried to avoid going down this path in the discussion, but in my opinion the entire notion of 'scouting systems' is garbage. And the entire way scouting systems are structured is garbage and an absurd relic of the 1980s when no games were videotaped. If I was running an NHL team I'd gut the entire scouting system, save my owner $millions, and keep 3 or 4 of my best scouts to run all of North America (Europe is still a little different because Finnish Jr. league games aren't televised and you need to have people watching those in person). Hire a video team to condense games into 1-hour blocks and have your best people watching hundreds of games/year. The last thing you need is to listen to your hopeless Manitoba scout who only got his job because he was a well-liked ex-player because you feel bad that you haven't listened to his crappy recommendations in a few years. Every single NHL team has too many chefs in the f***ing kitchen.

And you can either scout or you can't. It's like writing music or acting. You can either see and understand what's happening on the ice and see through it and make projections or you can't, and if you can't there isn't a goddamned system in the world that will make you good at your job. Judd Brackett can scout, and he'll generate results in any system for any team.

This is your version, and you're more than welcome to it...I don't buy it though,...its a revarnished version of 'Judd made all the good pics, and Dim Jim made all the bad ones'.

Your dismissal of Bennings cohesive identification system ("garbage") is also bizarre...The Canucks scouting had no such thing prior (in one of the worst stretches of drafting in recent NHL history)...Your take would be believable if Brackett had done anything of consequence in 7 years pre Benning, ..

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Wair. PoM made up more than one fairytale in that post. Benning had to be over-ruled by Linden to get Petterson.

That's the thing with BS - it takes less time to spew it that to call it out.

"A narrative has since emerged that suggests the hockey department was divided on Pettersson. Brackett was in favour of taking the Swede. Benning was leaning toward Glass.
Benning rejects that version of events and while he isn’t exactly expansive on the subject, he said: “(Pettersson) was a unanimous decision.”
The relationship between Brackett and Benning has since been strained. While no one will speak to the matter on the record, Brackett believes he should have some degree of autonomy in running the scouting department. He’s turned down a contract extension from the Canucks. He was also aligned with former president Trevor Linden.
Brackett was not made available by the organization for this piece.
The backroom drama, while intriguing, is also inconsequential. Over the years Canucks’ fans have watched a steady stream of Brad Ferences, Josh Holdens, Libor Polaseks, Jason Herters — do we really have to go on? — climb up the stairs on draft day and stand with the resident GM as the organization’s first-round pick.
That player is supposed to represent hope. He’s supposed to represent the future. In the Canucks’ case he’s usually represented something else. But in the summer of 2017 they got the pick spectacularly right."..Ed Willes


Ed Willes: In picking Pettersson, Canucks prove you can't lose them all at draft | The Chronicle Herald

nar·ra·tive
/ˈnerədiv/

 

[rypper]

"A narrative has since emerged that suggests the hockey department was divided on Pettersson. Brackett was in favour of taking the Swede. Benning was leaning toward Glass.
Benning rejects that version of events and while he isn’t exactly expansive on the subject, he said: “(Pettersson) was a unanimous decision.”
The relationship between Brackett and Benning has since been strained. While no one will speak to the matter on the record, Brackett believes he should have some degree of autonomy in running the scouting department. He’s turned down a contract extension from the Canucks. He was also aligned with former president Trevor Linden.
Brackett was not made available by the organization for this piece.
The backroom drama, while intriguing, is also inconsequential. Over the years Canucks’ fans have watched a steady stream of Brad Ferences, Josh Holdens, Libor Polaseks, Jason Herters — do we really have to go on? — climb up the stairs on draft day and stand with the resident GM as the organization’s first-round pick.
That player is supposed to represent hope. He’s supposed to represent the future. In the Canucks’ case he’s usually represented something else. But in the summer of 2017 they got the pick spectacularly right."..Ed Willes


Ed Willes: In picking Pettersson, Canucks prove you can't lose them all at draft | The Chronicle Herald

nar·ra·tive
/ˈnerədiv/

So because Benning says it was unanimous, you take the as the truth. I wonder why he would have vested interest in that being the official story, if it wasn't.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

So because Benning says it was unanimous, you take the as the truth. I wonder why he would have vested interest in that being the official story, if it wasn't.

I'm not going to start up this whole debate again as it goes nowhere.(my opinion, your opinion yadda, yadda)...I'm just demonstrating that in the general sports media, it is considered a 'narrative'..not a fact.

Take it or leave it.

 

[MS]

This is your version, and you're more than welcome to it...I don't buy it though,...its a revarnished version of 'Judd made all the good pics, and Dim Jim made all the bad ones'.

BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT THE EVIDENCE IS.

In the last 15 years of Jim Benning developing scouting systems, pretty much the only good drafting by his teams has been in one region by one guy.

If you're trying to connect the most dots and establish the most likely explanation for the results his teams have generated, 'Jim Benning has a Magic Scouting System' is not at the top of the list.

Your dismissal of Bennings cohesive identification system ("garbage") is also bizarre...The Canucks scouting had no such thing prior (in one of the worst stretches of drafting in recent NHL history)...

This is also false.

This is going back over a decade (and if anyone can still find the links confirming this, that would be awesome - I'm sure I'm not the only one who remembers them in any case) but when Gillis took over and evaluated the (obviously poor) scouting, apparently Delorme convinced Gillis that the problems weren't the staff, but the lack of cohesive direction and focus from above. Gillis put in some measures to fix this, but by 2012 realized that actually Delorme and the scouts were the problem. Then a huge shakeup happened and Crawford was promoted, etc.

It probably wasn't a very good system, but there were definitely measures taken on this front before.

But again, I think that a) the notion of Magic Scouting Systems is stupid, and b) the notion that Jim Benning would be developing a Magic Scouting system given his terrible track record as a scout is nonsense.

Your take would be believable if Brackett had done anything of consequence in 7 years pre Benning, ..

Why on earth do you keep bringing this up? WE DIDN'T TAKE ANYONE FROM BRACKETT'S REGION. We have absolutely no idea what kind of work he was doing. He could have been putting hit after hit on a silver platter for the team but Delorme and Crawford weren't listening to him ... or the opposite. This isn't an argument for anything.

If we'd taken a string of duds from the USHL 2008-2014 this would be an argument. That didn't happen.

 

[Fatass]

BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT THE EVIDENCE IS.

In the last 15 years of Jim Benning developing scouting systems, pretty much the only good drafting by his teams has been in one region by one guy.

If you're trying to connect the most dots and establish the most likely explanation for the results his teams have generated, 'Jim Benning has a Magic Scouting System' is not at the top of the list.



This is also false.

This is going back over a decade (and if anyone can still find the links confirming this, that would be awesome - I'm sure I'm not the only one who remembers them in any case) but when Gillis took over and evaluated the (obviously poor) scouting, apparently Delorme convinced Gillis that the problems weren't the staff, but the lack of cohesive direction and focus from above. Gillis put in some measures to fix this, but by 2012 realized that actually Delorme and the scouts were the problem. Then a huge shakeup happened and Crawford was promoted, etc.

It probably wasn't a very good system, but there were definitely measures taken on this front before.

But again, I think that a) the notion of Magic Scouting Systems is stupid, and b) the notion that Jim Benning would be developing a Magic Scouting system given his terrible track record as a scout is nonsense.



Why on earth do you keep bringing this up? WE DIDN'T TAKE ANYONE FROM BRACKETT'S REGION. We have absolutely no idea what kind of work he was doing. He could have been putting hit after hit on a silver platter for the team but Delorme and Crawford weren't listening to him ... or the opposite. This isn't an argument for anything.

If we'd taken a string of duds from the USHL 2008-2014 this would be an argument. That didn't happen.

On your last point, maybe the evidence Judd was suggesting good picks (that were overruled) is a big reason why he got promoted to head scout? Benning would have been familiar with any players coming out of that region too, so (IMO) it’s highly likely Bracket had lots of data on previously suggested picks, and shared that with Benning.

 

[Hoghandler]

So because Benning says it was unanimous, you take the as the truth. I wonder why he would have vested interest in that being the official story, if it wasn't.

What about the vested interest of Trevor Linden’s story that he relayed to Matt Sekeres?

Are you willing to take the word of a scorned Trevor Linden at face value? Has Trevor always been honest and forthright?

 

[mossey3535]

If true I’d easily move a piece like Rafferty. I think with Hughes and Rathbone he’s redundant. Gaudette not so much.

Normally I would agree but our depth is so shallow that I'd lean towards keeping someone we can continue to develop.

 

[ProstheticConscience]

What about the vested interest of Trevor Linden’s story that he relayed to Matt Sekeres?

Are you willing to take the word of a scorned Trevor Linden at face value? Has Trevor always been honest and forthright?

Oh look, it's Mr Self-Awareness back again. "I registered last year but I know all about user's preferred draft picks from five years ago!" Do you have *any* proof whatsoever that Linden was behind the Boeser rumour? Anything at all?

 

[rypper]

What about the vested interest of Trevor Linden’s story that he relayed to Matt Sekeres?

Are you willing to take the word of a scorned Trevor Linden at face value? Has Trevor always been honest and forthright?

Yes, because he was saying the same thing when he was still employed by the team.

 

[Bob Long]

He ran the scouting department for the Bruins, doesn't it seem odd to you the GM would give him that control but then not let him institute his own scouting system?

maybe not for an original 6 team, which would be a lot harder to make changes in than what was going on here. I suspect the positions and people are pretty entrenched in Boston.

 

[Bob Long]

Well, if he really did have some great system, why wouldn't Boston have wanted to utilize it?

as I said above, it may have simply been easier to do it here. Boston ownership, original 6 and all that bs might have things pretty entrenched. They also may have been OK with what was going on as well and there wasn't a place to try out something new. Here tho things were a mess and Aqulini may not care.

 

[Hoghandler]

Oh look, it's Mr Self-Awareness back again. "I registered last year but I know all about user's preferred draft picks from five years ago!" Do you have *any* proof whatsoever that Linden was behind the Boeser rumour? Anything at all?

I never said Linden was behind the Boeser rumour. You’re confused.

 

[Bob Long]

And Gaudette with Loui. But a properly managed cap (especially during a rebuilding phase) shouldn’t require depleting our young player group to dump old guys we should never have signed to term.

ouch. We don't have the C depth to move AG tho. Sutter is broken and gone in a year anyway. Madden being moved makes AG's job pretty safe imo.

I think its going to be Jake + Loui to Ottawa. I've been shite on for suggesting that here before, but it makes a lot of sense. Jake and Brady on the top 6 would be great for them. Loui is money in the bank for Melnyk since he helps reach the cap floor, which I'm sure old Eugene would love to do with AAV vs real money for the next two years as the league digs its way out of covid losses.

 

[Kryten]

maybe not for an original 6 team, which would be a lot harder to make changes in than what was going on here. I suspect the positions and people are pretty entrenched in Boston.

Sweet zombie Jesus you made me drive to the next town over to see where the goal posts went

 

[Bob Long]

Sweet zombie Jesus you made me drive to the next town over to see where the goal posts went

huh? you don't think different teams would have different situations?

 

[rypper]

huh? you don't think different teams would have different situations?

That's a stretch man, he was in a position where he answered only to GM Peter Chiarelli. He ran the scouting department.

He'd been working on the scouting side of things for the last 14 years prior, to insinuate that he wouldn't be able to institute changes because of the old boys club, well he was about as old boys club as you can get.

 

[Kryten]

huh? you don't think different teams would have different situations?

Like Rypper said, that’s a condor sized reach, a Hail Mary attempt from you there

 

[MS]

maybe not for an original 6 team, which would be a lot harder to make changes in than what was going on here. I suspect the positions and people are pretty entrenched in Boston.

huh? you don't think different teams would have different situations?

LOL, what on earth?

The previous scouts led by Jeff Gorton (who selected the Bergeron/Lucic/Krejci/Marchand core) were so 'entrenched' that Chiarelli and Benning fired them when they took over.

Chiarelli is not a scouting guy and has never worked as a scout - he has a marketing/business background. Benning came in and took over a scouting department with a clean slate to put in his people and his ideas, and would almost certainly have had total freedom to do that. And what he built was the worst-drafting team in the NHL.

 

[geebaan]

It’s getting down right pathetic the lengths people will go to defend Jim. Honestly just makes me sad.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

What about the vested interest of Trevor Linden’s story that he relayed to Matt Sekeres?

Are you willing to take the word of a scorned Trevor Linden at face value? Has Trevor always been honest and forthright?

*crickets*