The Management Thread - Time is a Flat Circle

[Hoghandler]

Delete

 

[MS]

Do we? We could be sitting on the next Jonathan Quick for all we know.

We need a couple more years to have a good idea where guys like DiPietro, Lind and Woo wind up. Still lots of time for them to cement themselves as NHL players.

Right now, based on the evidence we have available, the players tracking at a high level are almost exclusively US Brackett picks.

If something changes, then it does, obviously. But when you're trying to sell Jim Benning as having put some sort of magic drafting system that 'fixed' our drafting but can't offer any evidence of that other than a list of players taken by our head scout from his region, you've got a problem. The onus is on you to provide that evidence.

If, two years from now Woo and Lind have exploded then you might have evidence for your Benning Magic System narrative. But right now those players are not tracking well, there is no evidence for that narrative, and the actual evidence we do have from things that have actually happened strongly indicate that what has happened here in the last 5 years is that any improved drafting success has been driven almost exclusively by one guy, and that Benning has now pushed that guy out.

 

[Bob Long]

Nobody wants to answer this question :

Why is our CHL scouting since 2015 the worst it’s ever been in the history of this franchise? ?

? Maybe because its not a good question.

Whats wrong with Woo and Lind in the 2nd rounds? I'm not ready to pronounce Juolevi as a bust, even if you are. Breisbois is a solid pick as well.

 

[Bob Long]

Can you explain me the "scouting system" and what was different than before?

sure. At Jim's first season ticket holder event he talked about the need to get the whole scouting group using the same terms to evaluate players. IMO it was a very smart move, there can be a lot of variability in how individuals describe and rate talent. He also allowed Bracket the space to grow into the talent he is today as well. That deserves actual credit. To say its all just Judd ignores the impact of Bennings early decisions.

 

[Bob Long]

Ray Ferraro explains here..at the 7 minute mark..
Ferraro: Fine line between being selfless in front office and trying to outshine everyone else

thats a pretty interesting take. I wonder how some on here will poop on Ferarro for that?

 

[Burke's Evil Spirit]

? Maybe because its not a good question.

Whats wrong with Woo and Lind in the 2nd rounds? I'm not ready to pronounce Juolevi as a bust, even if you are. Breisbois is a solid pick as well.

It's funny how the goalposts have shifted for Benning supporters.

Kole Lind is tracking fine as a 2nd rounder, even though his production through two years in the AHL is lagging Brendan Gaunce, a major Gillis bust, by a LOT. And Gaunce didn't have the luxury of an AHL superstar linemate like Reid Boucher.

Lind is going to top out as a 12th or 13th forward, in the NHL, tops.

 

[MS]

? Maybe because its not a good question.

Whats wrong with Woo and Lind in the 2nd rounds? I'm not ready to pronounce Juolevi as a bust, even if you are. Breisbois is a solid pick as well.

Juolevi right now is one of the worst draft picks in NHL history.

Brisebois is a middling sort of 3rd round pick who is a solid AHL defender and useful callup but won't be an NHL regular. There is nothing special about this pick and if he's the standard for 'good pick' then Gillis made tons of them.

Lind and Woo are disappointments. Woo's season was a disaster and for a CHL player taken as high as he was to not even be invited to the WJC selection camp is almost unheard-of. Very low upside player. The next 4 defenders taken in that round are blowing him out of the water.

 

[Bob Long]

It's funny how the goalposts have shifted for Benning supporters.

Kole Lind is tracking fine as a 2nd rounder, even though his production through two years in the AHL is lagging Brendan Gaunce, a major Gillis bust, by a LOT. And Gaunce didn't have the luxury of an AHL superstar linemate like Reid Boucher.

Lind is going to top out as a 12th or 13th forward, in the NHL, tops.

what goalposts are you talking about?

You admit Lind is tracking well for a 2nd rounder, but to avoid giving Benning credit you make a prediction that Lind won't be better than Gaunce? based on what?

 

[supercanuck]

This should be a team with mountains of cap space in a position to absolutely feast on the teams forced to make roster cuts for next season. Instead we're in the worst position of anyone and will be wasting multiple quality assets and quality players to try and fix this mess.

Feels like a huge lost opportunity which is my major gripe here. EP and QH on their ELC's for this year and next being our best players. Horvat, Brock, and Miller on reasonable to good contracts for a few more years. And then you've got all these middling to awful players making too many millions for far too long.

 

[Bob Long]

Juolevi right now is one of the worst draft picks in NHL history.

Brisebois is a middling sort of 3rd round pick who is a solid AHL defender and useful callup but won't be an NHL regular. There is nothing special about this pick and if he's the standard for 'good pick' then Gillis made tons of them.

Lind and Woo are disappointments. Woo's season was a disaster and for a CHL player taken as high as he was to not even be invited to the WJC selection camp is almost unheard-of. Very low upside player. The next 4 defenders taken in that round are blowing him out of the water.

that first bit is pure hyperbole. Lets dial that down a bit maybe?

Breezy has turned into a solid 3rd pairing d potential player, thats a solid outcome for him.

You simply can't call Lind an Woo busts at this point. If you want to spend your time disappointed in them already have at 'er but you can't call Woo "low upside" at this point, thats silly.

 

[MS]

what goalposts are you talking about?

You admit Lind is tracking well for a 2nd rounder, but to avoid giving Benning credit you make a prediction that Lind won't be better than Gaunce? based on what?

You need to read that again.

The same people who frame Gaunce is a major bust by a bad scouting GM are trying to frame Kole Lind is a player tracking great drafted by a great drafting GM, despite the fact that Gaunce's development through two AHL seasons absolutely blows Lind's out of the water.

 

[MS]

that first bit is pure hyperbole. Lets dial that down a bit maybe?

Uh, no.

For a top-5 pick to not have played an NHL game through their draft+4 season is unheard-of. The guy is soft as hell, can't play defense, and is injury prone. He's also been passed by both Hughes and Rathbone as LH skill defenders and by a similar-style player in Rafferty on the right side.

Breezy has turned into a solid 3rd pairing d potential player, thats a solid outcome for him.

Brisebois is a #9-10 type defender at the point where he's about to lose waiver eligibility. He's a very middling 3rd round pick.

You simply can't call Lind an Woo busts at this point. If you want to spend your time disappointed in them already have at 'er but you can't call Woo "low upside" at this point, thats silly.

I didn't call them busts. I called them disappointments who are not tracking well, which is 100% correct.

Woo has been a low-upside pick from the second he was drafted, and that upside has dropped with his poor season last year.

 

[Hit the post]

Uh, no.

For a top-5 pick to not have played an NHL game through their draft+4 season is unheard-of.

Might not mean much if his drafting team was DEEP on the blueline. But it ain't. With the likes of Pizza-Pizza, No-Good-Branson, etc....if you can't beat out those STIFFS for even a cup of coffee on a TERRIBLE team; there are serious flaws in your game draft+4 season.

 

[geebaan]

Uh, no.

For a top-5 pick to not have played an NHL game through their draft+4 season is unheard-of. The guy is soft as hell, can't play defense, and is injury prone. He's also been passed by both Hughes and Rathbone as LH skill defenders and by a similar-style player in Rafferty on the right side.



Brisebois is a #9-10 type defender at the point where he's about to lose waiver eligibility. He's a very middling 3rd round pick.



I didn't call them busts. I called them disappointments who are not tracking well, which is 100% correct.

Woo has been a low-upside pick from the second he was drafted, and that upside has dropped with his poor season last year.

you said those guys are busts!!!

I never said that

but then you said Juolevi is the worst ever! HyPeRbOlE mUcH

well(presents evidence as to why)

you guys just hate Benning and this great team and his great scouting

?????!!!

 

[Hoghandler]

Isn’t MS like the only Canuck fan that preferred Olli Juolevi over Matthew Tkachuk?

Never mind he also missed on Pettersson, Hughes and Boeser.

Like, have an ounce of self awareness. Hahaha.

 

[MS]

Might not mean much if his drafting team was DEEP on the blueline. But it ain't. With the likes of Pizza-Pizza, No-Good-Branson, etc....if you can't beat out those STIFFS for even a cup of coffee on a TERRIBLE team; there are serious flaws in your game draft+4 season.

With Hughes and Rathbone now ahead of him, it's almost impossible to see where a one-dimensional skill/PP LHS defender like Juolevi could ever win a job in the organization, even if he miraculously turned things around at the AHL level. There's no way any team could have all 3 guys in the lineup at once ... even just Hughes and Rathbone at once would mean you're only dressing 1 LD who can PK.

 

[VanillaCoke]

Breezy has turned into a solid 3rd pairing d potential player, thats a solid outcome for him.

.

That is pathetic.
The draft guru passed up on Tkachuk, on the same f***ing team, for that garbage lol .

 

[Johnny Canucker]

Imagine not signing Beagle , Ferlund, Erikson and drafting Tkachuk instead of Juolevi. It’s a Stanley cup contending team for years.
A few bad decisions is the difference between greatness and crappiness.

 

[Peen]

Isn’t MS like the only Canuck fan that preferred Olli Juolevi over Matthew Tkachuk?

Never mind he also missed on Pettersson, Hughes and Boeser.

Like, have an ounce of self awareness. Hahaha.

Dang.

I'm really disappointed in probably the smartest fan for making the same talent evaluation mistake with one draft pick as the guys running the organization who are apparently much smarter than the fans.

Pretty sure MS success rate in his opinions is like 85%. Benning and Co. batting below 50%, but they both made one mistake in evaluation so MS is not self aware!!

 

[Johnny Canucker]

With Hughes and Rathbone now ahead of him, it's almost impossible to see where a one-dimensional skill/PP LHS defender like Juolevi could ever win a job in the organization, even if he miraculously turned things around at the AHL level. There's no way any team could have all 3 guys in the lineup at once ... even just Hughes and Rathbone at once would mean you're only dressing 1 LD who can PK.

Maybe we can trade OJ for the 2 high draft picks we gave up for 12 games of Tyler Toffoli?

 

[MS]

Isn’t MS like the only Canuck fan that preferred Olli Juolevi over Matthew Tkachuk?

Never mind he also missed on Pettersson, Hughes and Boeser.

Like, have an ounce of self awareness. Hahaha.

I've said repeatedly I made the exact same mistake the team did on Juolevi and didn't perceive the extent he was being carried by his teammates in London and with Finland. I don't know how I could be more self-aware than admitting I made a mistake and also explaining what the mistake was and how it occurred. As soon as I saw Juolevi with London a few times the following season with a worse supporting cast where he was actually being asked to defend, I had major concerns and explained those in detail as to why my opinion on the player had changed.

Pettersson I said repeatedly that he looked good on paper but I couldn't rate him because I'd never seen him play and didn't know much about him. Saying 'I don't have an opinion because I don't have enough information' is not a wrong opinion. I didn't have a strong opinion on Patrick White or Ryan Kesler when we drafted those players, either.

Travis Konecny is a better player than Brock Boeser, so I nailed that one. And Brayden Point.

But nice try. Also, if you're comparing a guy on a message board with limited resources to an NHL team spending $millions, you would damned well hope the NHL team should blow me out of the water. They haven't.

As usual : losing an argument, straight for the personal shots. And you still won't tell us what all your previous handles here were so we can evaluate your old opinions, because you're a coward.

 

[Bob Long]

Uh, no.

For a top-5 pick to not have played an NHL game through their draft+4 season is unheard-of. The guy is soft as hell, can't play defense, and is injury prone. He's also been passed by both Hughes and Rathbone as LH skill defenders and by a similar-style player in Rafferty on the right side.



Brisebois is a #9-10 type defender at the point where he's about to lose waiver eligibility. He's a very middling 3rd round pick.



I didn't call them busts. I called them disappointments who are not tracking well, which is 100% correct.

Woo has been a low-upside pick from the second he was drafted, and that upside has dropped with his poor season last year.

the only correct thing you stated about Juolevi was the word "injury".

Dale Hunter said in an interview in the summer that Woo was good enough to be on the team, it was a tough decision. I'll take his view over yours on Woo.

 

[Bob Long]

That is pathetic.
The draft guru passed up on Tkachuk, on the same f***ing team, for that garbage lol .

whats pathetic is connecting Breisbois to Tkachuk.

 

[Bob Long]

Imagine not signing Beagle , Ferlund, Erikson and drafting Tkachuk instead of Juolevi. It’s a Stanley cup contending team for years.
A few bad decisions is the difference between greatness and crappiness.

Calgary has 79 points. We have 78.

 

[ProstheticConscience]

Isn’t MS like the only Canuck fan that preferred Olli Juolevi over Matthew Tkachuk?

Never mind he also missed on Pettersson, Hughes and Boeser.

Like, have an ounce of self awareness. Hahaha.

Joined: July 9, 2019.