The Josh Anderson Thread

EspenK

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While I disagree with some of bus' contentions above I do agree that Anderson should be trade bait.
His best season could be his ceiling and I guess I see him as a .5 ppg at best going forward. Given his injury history and the potential of a contentious contract negotiation which may ultimately end with him walking as a UFA after next season if he could bring a decent return I say trade him.
 

majormajor

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I'd say that Josh Anderson was our second best forward in 2018-19. There was no doubt in my mind that he carried that line with Jenner and Foligno. Whichever trio he was a part of, they would spend 3/5 of their time pushing into the offensive zone, and they would revert to mediocrity when Josh wasn't on the ice.

Whatever the merits of trading Josh, the idea of him being replaceable is silly to me. Someone like Boone Jenner doesn't make Josh Anderson redundant. Not every big bruising player is the same, and not every speedster is the same. We could trade Josh and not have another one like him for many many years. Or maybe we'll keep him and he'll never play the same way again. Who knows.

While I disagree with some of bus' contentions above I do agree that Anderson should be trade bait.
His best season could be his ceiling and I guess I see him as a .5 ppg at best going forward. Given his injury history and the potential of a contentious contract negotiation which may ultimately end with him walking as a UFA after next season if he could bring a decent return I say trade him.

Yeah maybe, but the best return might not be until the deadline anyways, and that would give us time to figure out if he can be a big part of our future. I think an offseason trade has a lot of downside.
 

EspenK

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Copied from the Jackets Misc Thread explaining Porty's tweet

He has been saying for months that he believes Anderson is done here. That the relationship between the players/agent and the team is untenable unless the Jackets pay him what he feels he deserves.

It is his assumption that if he doesn't get the long term deal he wants, he will accept his qualifying offer and walk straight to UFA after this year. Leading him to believe the Jackets will cut their losses and trade him before he can accept the QO in hopes of maximizing his value.

I tend to think (hope) he is right. Given the contentious nature of the last negotiation, the possibility of ongoing shoulder problems and the possibility of his last season being the equivalent of Jenner's & Foligno's one hit wonders I'd ship him out.
 
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Viqsi

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Copied from the Jackets Misc Thread explaining Porty's tweet

I tend to think (hope) he is right. Given the contentious nature of the last negotiation, the possibility of ongoing shoulder problems and the possibility of his last season being the equivalent of Jenner's & Foligno's one hit wonders I'd ship him out.
If we could get good value for him, sure. As it is, tho, we'd be selling low, so I strongly suspect we're going to end up much better off gambling on a bounceback.
 

EspenK

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If we could get good value for him, sure. As it is, tho, we'd be selling low, so I strongly suspect we're going to end up much better off gambling on a bounceback.

You could be right. I'm also considering it will probably take 5 or 6 years and at least 5mm to re-sign him. If he'd take 4 years at 3.5 its a different story. I had salary cap issues in mind from the Jones-Zeke thread and having to sign them as well as PLD, OB, Murray or Savard and a goalie who by then should be an established NHL starter it is going to be tough if the cap doesn't pop. I've seen some speculation that it could stay flat for a season or two.
 
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CBJWerenski8

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You could be right. I'm also considering it will probably take 5 or 6 years and at least 5mm to re-sign him. If he'd take 4 years at 3.5 its a different story. I had salary cap issues in mind from the Jones-Zeke thread and having to sign them as well as PLD, OB, Murray or Savard and a goalie who by then should be an established NHL starter it is going to be tough if the cap doesn't pop. I've seen some speculation that it could stay flat for a season or two.

Only PLD and Bjork would be of any cost. Unless of course one of the goalies goes on to win a Vezina or get in that conversation.

Savard I am fairly certain won't get another contract here. I could see him traded this summer, or if he DOES get another contract, it would be at a lower AAV. When age hits Savard, it'll hit him HARD and make him unable to play in the NHL. He can't lose one step at all. Jackets should be careful with that one.

Murray will continue to get low AAV and low years until he proves he can stay healthy. Nobody will pay top dollar for his production and availability.

I would keep Anderson. I am not that worried about the shoulder thing, its just one of those things that happen. It's not a bad back or a bad leg, its a shoulder. Werenski recovered from his, and I believe Anderson will recover from his. I think Anderson is almost the definition of what kind of player Jarmo wants. Size, speed, and offensive ability. While I do think his offensive numbers of the past are inflated a bit by his ice time and linemates, I do think he is a 20+ goal scorer. Given what he brings physically as well as on ST, I would pay him 5-6 million for a 5 year contract if he would take it.

We'll have Tyutin and Hartnell's buyouts off the books as well as Dubinsky and Foligno's contracts in the next few years. That's over 15 million in cap on top of our 5 million free. PLD and Bjork will be costly no doubt, but I think we have the money to survive a flat or reduced cap. And I'm not even including Savard, Shore, and others who could walk. We just maybe can't go spending like we were planning to for a top 6 player.
 

majormajor

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Only PLD and Bjork would be of any cost. Unless of course one of the goalies goes on to win a Vezina or get in that conversation.

Savard I am fairly certain won't get another contract here. I could see him traded this summer, or if he DOES get another contract, it would be at a lower AAV. When age hits Savard, it'll hit him HARD and make him unable to play in the NHL. He can't lose one step at all. Jackets should be careful with that one.

Murray will continue to get low AAV and low years until he proves he can stay healthy. Nobody will pay top dollar for his production and availability.

I would keep Anderson. I am not that worried about the shoulder thing, its just one of those things that happen. It's not a bad back or a bad leg, its a shoulder. Werenski recovered from his, and I believe Anderson will recover from his. I think Anderson is almost the definition of what kind of player Jarmo wants. Size, speed, and offensive ability.

I am worried about the shoulder thing. Remember that he injured both of them. More broadly, his playstyle is very difficult to sustain.

If he does manage to return to that 2018-19 level, I'd have no problem throwing $6m at him. That's a great player, better than anyone you'll get in free agency. It's just a big ask for any player to play like that for long.

While I do think his offensive numbers of the past are inflated a bit by his ice time and linemates

That's not something you normally say about someone who got most of his production with Jenner and Foligno 5v5, and played more PK than PP.
 

EspenK

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Only PLD and Bjork would be of any cost. Unless of course one of the goalies goes on to win a Vezina or get in that conversation.


We'll have Tyutin and Hartnell's buyouts off the books as well as Dubinsky and Foligno's contracts in the next few years. That's over 15 million in cap on top of our 5 million free. PLD and Bjork will be costly no doubt, but I think we have the money to survive a flat or reduced cap. And I'm not even including Savard, Shore, and others who could walk. We just maybe can't go spending like we were planning to for a top 6 player.

Did you actually look at the numbers? Check my guesstimate above and tell me where I'm way off. Maybe we pay Jones & Zack 8 & 7 rather than 9 & 8. Maybe Murray & Savard are both gone but I don't think that will happen. The 15mm you mention will be mostly used to sign Bjork & PLD (6 & 7.5 respectively?). The big variable here will be how the cap increases. If, as speculated, it stays rather flat for a couple of years Jackets will be in a tight situation. I still think cap issues are a big reason to trade Andy.
 
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CBJWerenski8

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Did you actually look at the numbers? Check my guesstimate above and tell me where I'm way off. Maybe we pay Jones & Zack 8 & 7 rather than 9 & 8. Maybe Murray & Savard are both gone but I don't think that will happen. The 15mm you mention will be mostly used to sign Bjork & PLD (6 & 7.5 respectively?). The big variable here will be how the cap increases. If, as speculated, it stays rather flat for a couple of years Jackets will be in a tight situation. I still think cap issues are a big reason to trade Andy.

i think Jones gets 10 million, and Werenski around 8.

Why don't you think Savard will be gone? He's 29, and has two years left on his deal. Signing someone with mobility issues (as a 20 year old) into their mid 30's isn't exactly a good move. I don't think Murray will be too costly. Plus, we'll have cap relief from trading one of the goalies, letting certain players go (as I mentioned Shore before), etc.

I don't think the cap is a big issue at all when it comes to retaining our talent. Anyone you trade Anderson for is going to have a higher or equal AAV as well, unless you're going to sell him off for draft picks or unproven prospects which would be a massive mistake.
 
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CBJWerenski8

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I am worried about the shoulder thing. Remember that he injured both of them. More broadly, his playstyle is very difficult to sustain.

If he does manage to return to that 2018-19 level, I'd have no problem throwing $6m at him. That's a great player, better than anyone you'll get in free agency. It's just a big ask for any player to play like that for long.



That's not something you normally say about someone who got most of his production with Jenner and Foligno 5v5, and played more PK than PP.

Again, I'm not worried about the shoulder. I can't find any proof that he injured both of them, I only see he got hurt against Boston last playoffs, re-injured it in game 2 against Pittsburgh, came back and re-injured it again in a fight against Ottawa in December. While I agree his play style isn't going to last long in the NHL, he is only 26. I think he can maintain his style of play successfully at least into his late 20's.

He certainly has played a lot of minutes on a checking line, but is best offensive production came playing higher in the lineup.
 
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majormajor

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Again, I'm not worried about the shoulder. I can't find any proof that he injured both of them, I only see he got hurt against Boston last playoffs, re-injured it in game 2 against Pittsburgh, came back and re-injured it again in a fight against Ottawa in December. While I agree his play style isn't going to last long in the NHL, he is only 26. I think he can maintain his style of play successfully at least into his late 20's.

He certainly has played a lot of minutes on a checking line, but is best offensive production came playing higher in the lineup.

My memory is that he injured a different shoulder in the Ottawa fight, not the same one that was bothering him since last Spring.

In Josh's 27 goal 2018-19, he played most of the year with Jenner and Foligno and that's where most of his production was, too. Of his 22 ES goals, Josh scored 14 with Jenner, 8 with Foligno, and only 4 with PLD and 2 with Panarin. That's the profile of someone who is carrying, not someone who has inflated stats. Here's the stats (beware spaghetti code).
 

majormajor

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Did you actually look at the numbers? Check my guesstimate above and tell me where I'm way off. Maybe we pay Jones & Zack 8 & 7 rather than 9 & 8. Maybe Murray & Savard are both gone but I don't think that will happen. The 15mm you mention will be mostly used to sign Bjork & PLD (6 & 7.5 respectively?). The big variable here will be how the cap increases. If, as speculated, it stays rather flat for a couple of years Jackets will be in a tight situation. I still think cap issues are a big reason to trade Andy.

For some reason I can't find your table, but I remember looking at it and thinking that there was still some fat to be trimmed. You had us keeping Gavrikov, Murray, and Nuti all at $4m or so. I don't think Nuti would be kept if he's the #5 and needs $4m per. That's too much for a bottom pair fill-in guy.
 

JKinCLE

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Sorry to sound like such a poor. But can someone with an Athletic account highlight some major points of the latest Anderson article about him not being ready to play until Sept.? Does he at least mention the possibility this is a delaying tactic by agent/player to sit out to avoid playing with the Jackets?
 

Iron Balls McGinty

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Sorry to sound like such a poor. But can someone with an Athletic account highlight some major points of the latest Anderson article about him not being ready to play until Sept.? Does he at least mention the possibility this is a delaying tactic by agent/player to sit out to avoid playing with the Jackets?
No. The article says no such thing. Only that his agent, the team and his doctors will be consulted before he is cleared to play. 2 of those things are out of team control and it has been previously stated that he wasn't playing until he was cleared by their doctors so ultimately his agent his trying to hold the cards on when he plays again.
 
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LetsGOJackets!!

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Anderson's stats this year were not very good prior to his injury but he got stoned on more breakaway attempts then the rest of the team attempted. Hopefully he is stick handling and practicing his wrist shot.. as for trading him, hell no we are not going to get a decent value for him. Josh Anderson is the closest thing that we have had to a power forward.. make him play his way out of here.
 
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NotWendell

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Anderson's stats this year were not very good prior to his injury but he got stoned on more breakaway attempts then the rest of the team attempted. Hopefully he is stick handling and practicing his wrist shot.. as for trading him, hell no we are not going to get a decent value for him. Josh Anderson is the closest thing that we have had to a power forward.. make him play his way out of here.
Wouldn't that honor go to Boone Jenner?
 
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EspenK

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Wouldn't that honor go to Boone Jenner?


Nah. Historically it would have to be Nash but in modern times I'd go with Andy over Boone. Boone is a grinder type, Andy has the potential to be a consistent 20-25 goal guy while still bringing physicality.
 

LetsGOJackets!!

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Should have moved him when his value was the highest.
This can be said in hindsight after the guy has an injury plagued season.. but going back and watching the series with the Bolts, Anderson was huge during that series. He played a heavy game, was always in position and generally reaked havoc on Tampa. Turn to this year and the guy gets stoned on at least a dozen breakaways. If he buries even half of those his stats look much different. Moving Anderson would be a big mistake, I think he needs to get rid of his agent and show some goodwill at the table. He can be a difference maker here in Columbus.
 

thebus88

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Anderson's stats this year were not very good prior to his injury but he got stoned on more breakaway attempts then the rest of the team attempted. Hopefully he is stick handling and practicing his wrist shot.. as for trading him, hell no we are not going to get a decent value for him. Josh Anderson is the closest thing that we have had to a power forward.. make him play his way out of here.

You say it yourself, about him practicing his stickhandling and shot. Its not a coincidence that Anderson "seems" to blow a lot of chances. Also, the way he plays, and his USAGE on the team as a "go to" guy, the vast majority of his chances are because of other people setting him up or getting him the puck. He's not going into loose puck battles or puck battles in the corner and coming out with the puck and setting up the transition the other way or making a nice back door pass, like a Jenner/Dubois/Foligno, let alone a guy like Bjorkstrand or Texier. If he does get a loose puck in the offensive zone, he'll most of the time quickly just whip it at the net.

I really don't know what you mean about the "power forward" comment. Dubois, Foligno and Jenner are all 3 easily BETTER examples, and they actually seem to PLAY like power forward's the majority of the time when needed, along with being able to LAND a check. Most people agree the team needs more skill, not a "power forward" that does what Anderson does. I promise you, other teams are not "worried" in any way about Anderson before games, regarding his pure offensive "potential" or "power forward" ability.

Too add, I think he HAS talked and played his way off of the team.

This can be said in hindsight after the guy has an injury plagued season.. but going back and watching the series with the Bolts, Anderson was huge during that series. He played a heavy game, was always in position and generally reaked havoc on Tampa. Turn to this year and the guy gets stoned on at least a dozen breakaways. If he buries even half of those his stats look much different. Moving Anderson would be a big mistake, I think he needs to get rid of his agent and show some goodwill at the table. He can be a difference maker here in Columbus.

Nothing I am saying about Anderson is in hindsight. I've heard the "injury" excuse for years with him. The truth is that he's just not good with the puck on his stick. That's the REASON he gets stoned so much, yet you guys literally add value to him somehow by saying he can/should/will do better, even though he really has NEVER shown any sort of much higher potential. He is what he is, like Jenner, a 20 goal scorer. Unlike Jenner, Anderson does not bring the tangibles OR intangible's that he's perceived to bring to the team.

What players were NOT huge during that series? I could make the same case for f***ing Dubinsky and Nash. The "CBJ type hockey" played by essentially the entire team, with an influx of added talent with Panarin/Duchene is why we won that series. TB was OVERWHELMED by EVERYBODY, not just f***ing Anderson. Too add, TB is/was soft as f***, was a bad matchup for last years CBJ, and the team (and Anderson) exploited that. But, what happens when Anderson runs into a team like Boston or a player like Tom Wilson?? Daddy Foligno has to babysit/step in. Not to mention with all the hate Foligno, Dubinsky, even Dubois etc. have gotten in the past for "dumb" penalties, if you ask me Anderon pretty much tops that list, IMO.

Yeah, I wish he was better offensively and finished more of his scoring chances too, but his isn't and he doesn't, and that's what the team needs. He's not as valuable or as important to the team as he clearly thinks he is, and as other past decisions like this have been made, I fully trust Jarmo and Co to make the correct TEAM directed decision.

I'm curious, this is directed towards anybody, if you HAD to move 1 guy for the betterment of the team who would it be, who do you consider LEAST important, Anderson or Jenner?

Nah. Historically it would have to be Nash but in modern times I'd go with Andy over Boone. Boone is a grinder type, Andy has the potential to be a consistent 20-25 goal guy while still bringing physicality.

I really don't understand this thinking. I think you have the "descriptions" backwards. Boone Jenner is a better and more skilled offensive player than Anderson. The only skill/attribute that Anderson has over Jenner is overall straight line speed, mostly over long distances. Anderson's skating takes a big hit when he has the puck on his stick. Also, Anderson's agility/acceleration is extremely lacking and in small areas he can we worthless at times and just stand around, whereas Jenner's best ability, you could say, is "grinding" to GET the puck or just playing in high traffic areas.

Jenner's hands/stickhandling and both overall offensive and defensive stickwork is much better than Anderson's. Anderson might look a little more pretty flying down the wing in space (after Jenner or Foligno dug the put out of the d zone for him) and his shot might seem a bit harder after gaining speed skating all the way down the ice, but its like Anderson just whips the puck at the net as hard as he can most of the time to see what happens. However, that swooping old school WRIST shot that Jenner can get off (with extra space that isn't always there) has intent behind it, and while he might rush himself a bit on the offensive side due to other on ice commitments, if able to focus/commit to offense/shooting during a game or a stretch, he's simply a more impactful (and SKILLED) player on both ends of the puck than Anderson is, IMO.
 

thebus88

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I'd say that Josh Anderson was our second best forward in 2018-19. There was no doubt in my mind that he carried that line with Jenner and Foligno. Whichever trio he was a part of, they would spend 3/5 of their time pushing into the offensive zone, and they would revert to mediocrity when Josh wasn't on the ice.

Whatever the merits of trading Josh, the idea of him being replaceable is silly to me. Someone like Boone Jenner doesn't make Josh Anderson redundant. Not every big bruising player is the same, and not every speedster is the same. We could trade Josh and not have another one like him for many many years. Or maybe we'll keep him and he'll never play the same way again. Who knows.

Well, I'd say that "2nd best forward" stuff is nonsense, and sounds quite similar to the Wennberg nonsense of the past. Why is it that you think that he "carried" a line of 2 other guys who themselves are known to "carry" or "drive" lines? Something other than the NuMbERs please..... 3/5 huh...? Who do you think was digging pucks out of the defensive zone for that line and getting the puck to Anderson? Zone ice time and shots (or whatever your "measuring") only tells you so much, seriously. Dubois and Atkinson exist, ok, and somebody had to play with Panarin and they shouldn't have anything taken away from them as they played great themselves. Give me Bjorkstrand/Foligno/Jenner all day also, and yes, I do not care about your numbers.

What's "replaceable" and what makes Anderson redundant is not really related to Jenner. Jenner, just by playing center and bringing what he does at the faceoff dot and on the PK, already separates himself from Anderson. Jenner however, does fill a certain niche that Anderson does. What we should be talking about in regards to being able to replace him, is this supposed "scoring niche" that he supposedly does or can fill, is BETTER (and yes younger/cheaper) players being able to literally step in now and the team is better off with them getting the minutes Anderson was getting. Ignoring how much I like the vets and Dubois/Bjorkstrand- Texier, Bemstrom, Foudy and Robinson all bring things I think help the team win games more than Anderson, and it would hurt the team to have them below Anderson in the depth chart/TOI. I don't think there's 12 better forwards, but that he should be closer in chances and TOI to Robinson than Texier/Bemstrom (or god forbid Bjorkstrand) and if his acceptable salary wont come near reflecting that, then management should search for a solution to move on and look past this following year if it seems he's essentially pulling a Bob aka "they know my plans".

If we could get good value for him, sure. As it is, tho, we'd be selling low, so I strongly suspect we're going to end up much better off gambling on a bounceback.

Is the team better off with Anderson playing 16-17-whatever a night "bouncing back", or with that ice time going to a Texier, Bemstrom, Foudy, etc.?

That's not something you normally say about someone who got most of his production with Jenner and Foligno 5v5, and played more PK than PP.

In Josh's 27 goal 2018-19, he played most of the year with Jenner and Foligno and that's where most of his production was, too. Of his 22 ES goals, Josh scored 14 with Jenner, 8 with Foligno, and only 4 with PLD and 2 with Panarin. That's the profile of someone who is carrying, not someone who has inflated stats. Here's the stats (beware spaghetti code).

OK, seriously, how do these numbers tell you that he is "carrying" these lines, especially playing with Foligno/Jenner? 2 guys who ironically probably play through injuries without getting credit more than anybody else, along with the majority of the time being 2 of the main guys that "drive" or "carry" whatever line they are on, essentially "driving" the TEAM. I believe you yourself go on about Foligno being "top line" capable. Why do these 2 guys, OR ANYBODY, according to your "numbers" seem to for whatever reason stop doing this when playing on a line with Anderson? Is it because these numbers are skewed to make certain players, or types of players, better or more valuable than they actually are?

I remember the "numbers" that said.... Bobrovsky > Tavares/Barkov....are these the same numbers that say these things about Andy?
 

LetsGOJackets!!

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I haven't looked at stat comparisons, just giving my opinion based on what I see watching every game. Not a good comparable - Jenner's value vs Anderson's, Jenn's is a 2nd/ 3rd line centre Anderson can play right wing on any of the 4 lines. Not really comparable in my eyes, and Jenn's is probably worth more salary wise, however, on a team that needs every goal it can get I'm not willing to cut bait on Andy. You do raise an interesting point about Bem, Texier or Robby getting more of his ice time & what could they do with that. Today I don't know the answer to that question, but frankly I figured if Andy goes in trade it is for someone else that will step into his minutes. Anderson reminded me of a young Todd Bertuzzi (size, speed and heavy shot), but he hasn't had a talent like Markus Nasland to feed him the pucks. At this point in his career arc, he isn't going to get anywhere near Bertuzzi's stats.
 

majormajor

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I haven't looked at stat comparisons, just giving my opinion based on what I see watching every game. Not a good comparable - Jenner's value vs Anderson's, Jenn's is a 2nd/ 3rd line centre Anderson can play right wing on any of the 4 lines. Not really comparable in my eyes, and Jenn's is probably worth more salary wise, however, on a team that needs every goal it can get I'm not willing to cut bait on Andy. You do raise an interesting point about Bem, Texier or Robby getting more of his ice time & what could they do with that. Today I don't know the answer to that question, but frankly I figured if Andy goes in trade it is for someone else that will step into his minutes. Anderson reminded me of a young Todd Bertuzzi (size, speed and heavy shot), but he hasn't had a talent like Markus Nasland to feed him the pucks. At this point in his career arc, he isn't going to get anywhere near Bertuzzi's stats.

I don't feel that way. I suppose it depends on which Anderson you get. But in his best year (2018-19) he was better than Boone ever was.
 

LetsGOJackets!!

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I don't feel that way. I suppose it depends on which Anderson you get. But in his best year (2018-19) he was better than Boone ever was.

Good point.. I was about 5 bottles of 2 Hearted into the night at the time I wrote that - this morning I agree with you - probably means I should stay off the keyboard - thanks for the insight.
 

majormajor

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Good point.. I was about 5 bottles of 2 Hearted into the night at the time I wrote that - this morning I agree with you - probably means I should stay off the keyboard - thanks for the insight.

I had a few Naragansetts. Two Hearted sounds intriguing but I don't handle hops well anymore.
 

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