Tavares vs. Pettersson

[Breakers]

Is it even really debatable who was better this season?

Not really.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Now it matters that Barzal was the leading scoring centre on the Islanders in the playoffs. The NHL doesn't show playoff stats by a players position, so no matter how you try and move the goal posts he didn't lead the Islanders in points during the playoffs.

However since you opened the door to talking about where a player ranked at their position let me remind you of this. In the 2018-19 regular season Tavares was the leading goal scoring Centre for the Maple Leafs with his 47 goals. However the fact Auston Matthews was their leading goal scoring Centre and overall points leader in the playoffs isn't something I was upset about.

We were talking #1C's so it is natural one would think what we were discussing. Anything you want to discuss on EP? I stated my reasons for picking him. You want to comment on the 5v5 GA 60 stats posted.
JT GA60 5v5 3.34 last on The Leafs last season which accounted for his -7.
EP 3rd best on the Canucks at 2.34 +16
Defensive metrics EP has a big edge.
Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Why are you talking as if Barzal won them the round on his own?

He didnt even lead his team in playoff scoring, courtesy of Jordan Eberle, and had a lower playoff average TOI than Brock Nelson, Josh Bailey, and Anders Lee.

Tavares lead his team in playoff points, goals, and average TOI forward wise. Barzal did none of those.

If anything Jordan Eberle played the Tavares for the Islanders.

Eberle did not face off against Crosby and Malkin did he? And win.

Let's get on topic, why hasn't Tavares managed to win more than 1 playoff rd in his 10 year career? Barzal was able to do it against Sid and Malkin head to head first up.

 

[CatchyTune]

Eberle did not face off against Crosby and Malkin did he? And win.

Let's get on topic, why hasn't Tavares managed to win more than 1 playoff rd in his 10 year career? Barzal was able to do it against Sid and Malkin head to head first up.

So takings faceoffs trumps goals point TOI etc? Who cares who takes the faceoffs?

Since you seem to care, Tavares had a 56.7% faceoff win % in the 2015-16 playoffs compared to Barzals 50.9% in the 2018-19 playoffs.

You're acting like this is the NBA and 1 star can carry a team. Theres 20 players on a team. Tavares didnt disappoint. Islanders management crapped the bed during Tavares' tenure and couldnt build a consistently competitive team over 9 years of Tavares being there.

Maybe ask yourself why management could only build a team good enough to win 1 round in 9 years rather than why couldnt Tavares carry a garbage team to more than 1 series victory?

 

[The Winter Soldier]

So takings faceoffs trumps goals point TOI etc? Who cares who takes the faceoffs?

Since you seem to care, Tavares had a 56.7% faceoff win % in the 2015-16 playoffs compared to Barzals 50.9% in the 2018-19 playoffs.

You're acting like this is the NBA and 1 star can carry a team. Theres 20 players on a team. Tavares didnt disappoint. Islanders management crapped the bed during Tavares' tenure and couldnt build a consistently competitive team over 9 years of Tavares being there.

Maybe ask yourself why management could only build a team good enough to win 1 round rather than why couldnt Tavares carry a garbage team to more than 1 series victory?

I would like to hear a reasonable reason that doesn't always blame the GM 100% of the time. JT as I remind you, was 1 and out last year too. At some point he has to share some of the blame. Maybe if he did lead his team in scoring in the playoffs, the Leafs would have won the series. It just seems to me, his stats no matter how shiny do not amount to what matters, winning. The Leafs went from 105 points to 100 with him. The Isles went 80 to 103 pts without him, and beat Crosby and Malkin something tavares never was up to in the first yr without him. Something is not right here. For all the excuses and shiny stats we see, there is little substance in winning. I don't care how you gloss it, 1 playoff win in 10 years of playing is not all the GM's fault. Snow or Dubas.

 

[CatchyTune]

I would like to hear a reasonable reason that doesn't always blame the GM 100% of the time. JT as I remind you, was 1 and out last year too. At some point he has to share some of the blame. Maybe if he did lead his team in scoring in the playoffs, the Leafs would have won the series. It just seems to me, his stats no matter how shiny do not amount to what matters, winning. The Leafs went from 105 points to 100 with him. The Isles went 80 to 103 pts without him, and beat Crosby and Malkin something tavares never was up to in the first yr without him. Something is not right here. For all the excuses and shiny stats we see, there is little substance in winning. I don't care how you gloss it, 1 playoff win in 10 years of playing is not all the GM's fault. Snow or Dubas.

Maybe you saw a point increase because their goaltending went from this:

Player Name	GP	Min	GA	GAA	W	L	T	Svs	Pct	EN	SO
Jaroslav Halak	54	3024	161	3.19	20	26	6	1583	0.908	0	1
Christopher Gibson	8	427	26	3.65	2	3	2	258	0.908	0	0
Thomas Greiss	27	1492	95	3.82	13	8	2	784	0.892	0	1

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

To this

Player Name	GP	Min	GA	GAA	W	L	T	Svs	Pct	EN	SO
Christopher Gibson	2	40	1	1.50				16	0.941	0	0
Robin Lehner	46	2616	93	2.13	25	13	5	1230	0.930	0	6
Thomas Greiss	43	2294	87	2.28	23	14	2	1098	0.927	0	5

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Suggesting a team got better by losing someone who would have lead that islanders team in points by 26 and goals by 19 is ridiculous. Maybe the difference between Doug Weight and Barry Trotz behind the bench also plays a factor.

 

[HarryLime]

Im not a big Tavares fan

 

[LeafsNation75]

I would like to hear a reasonable reason that doesn't always blame the GM 100% of the time. JT as I remind you, was 1 and out last year too. At some point he has to share some of the blame. Maybe if he did lead his team in scoring in the playoffs, the Leafs would have won the series. It just seems to me, his stats no matter how shiny do not amount to what matters, winning. The Leafs went from 105 points to 100 with him. The Isles went 80 to 103 pts without him, and beat Crosby and Malkin something tavares never was up to in the first yr without him. Something is not right here. For all the excuses and shiny stats we see, there is little substance in winning. I don't care how you gloss it, 1 playoff win in 10 years of playing is not all the GM's fault. Snow or Dubas.

This isn't blaming the GM, so how about saying Mike Babcock being stubborn is why Toronto didn't advance last year and that had nothing to do with how Tavares played.

In Game 6 when Toronto was up 3-2 in the series and leading 1-0 in the 1st period, he puts Zach Hyman on the faceoff during a penalty kill and Hyman loses the faceoff to Bergeron. Seconds later Brad Marchand ties the game 1-1. I bring that up since Babcock knew Hyman was playing with a torn ACL, so why didn't Babcock have Tavares, Matthews, or Gauthier taking the faceoff since they were natural centres?

Later in that same game in the 3rd period when Auston Matthews scores to make it a 3-2 Boston lead, on the ensuing faceoff Babcock sends out Gauthier and the 4th line like he always did after a goal was scored, if his line wasn't previously on the ice. Doing that kills their momentum not keeping Matthews line out or going to the Tavares line.

 

[Dekes For Days]

He had the worst 5 v 5 metrics on the Leafs in GA60 3.34

This is because he got 0.892 goaltending behind him (worst of any forward on the team), not because of him being bad defensively.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Maybe you saw a point increase because their goaltending went from this:

Suggesting a team got better by losing someone who would have lead that islanders team in points by 26 and goals by 19 is ridiculous. Maybe the difference between Doug Weight and Barry Trotz behind the bench also plays a factor.

This isn't blaming the GM, so how about saying Mike Babcock being stubborn is why Toronto didn't advance last year and that had nothing to do with how Tavares played.

You guys didn't address the question. But since you point to this. Maybe check Tavares GA60 5v5 stats this year, and the last year he played on the Island,

Tavares 5v5 GA60
17-18 3.16 5th worst on the Islanders
Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

18-19 5v5 2.68 GA60 4th worst on the Leafs
Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

He is last in 5v5 GA60 3.34 on the Leafs this year.
Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

When you are this bad defensively, the team will give up more goals correct? Interesting it's either always the GM's and now the goaltending's fault, the guy making 11M per never shares part of the blame? One playoff win in 10 seasons as a pro as the supposed best player on the team? I don't see any evidence other than faceoff % to pick him over EP right now.

 

[Dekes For Days]

when you are bad defensively, the team will give up more goals correct?

Depends how your goaltending does. An Islanders fan should definitely know that.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

Petterson by a small margin right now, but it’s not even close going forward, given the age and potential of the two players.

 

[Dache]

This is because he got 0.892 goaltending behind him (worst of any forward on the team), not because of him being bad defensively.

Maybe part of a bad save percentage behind him is his contribution to the defence?

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Depends how your goaltending does. An Islanders fan should definitely know that.

How do you account for Tavares having the worst 5v5 metrics on the Leafs defensively this season?

2017-18 Isles with Tavares worst defensive team in the NHL (31st)
2018-19 Isles without Tavares best team defensively in the NHL (1st)

You don't believe the stats? Maybe Tavares had something to do with the goaltending?

Tavares 5v5 GA60

17-18 3.16 5th worst on the Islanders
Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

18-19 5v5 2.68 GA60 4th worst on the Leafs
Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

He is last in 5v5 GA60 3.34 on the Leafs this year.
Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

 

[Dekes For Days]

How do you account for Tavares having the worst 5v5 metrics on the Leafs defensively this season?

He doesn't.

Maybe part of a bad save percentage behind him is his contribution to the defence?

There's no evidence that he is the worst defensive forward 5v5, which is why that individual used a stat that is heavily affected by goaltending to make an incorrect suggestion about his defense.

 

[Dache]

He doesn't.

There's no evidence that he is the worst defensive forward 5v5, which is why that individual used a stat that is heavily affected by goaltending to make an incorrect suggestion about his defense.

None of that answered my question at all

 

[The Winter Soldier]

He doesn't.

He does. You may want to look again.
Tavares 5v5 GA60 3.34 which is worst on the Leafs this year. Which has a great effect on goaltending.
Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick
The stats back up the eye test. Here is just a small sampling of Tavares defensive work this year.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

He does. You may want to look again.
Tavares 5v5 GA60 3.34 which is worst on the Leafs this year. Which has a great effect on goaltending.
Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick
The stats back up the eye test. Here is just a small sampling of Tavares defensive game this year.

The amount of goals against Tavares is on the ice for has a "great effect" on goaltending? I think you have that backwards

 

[Mugzy97]

I don't think a single GM in the league would choose Pettersson over Tavares if they were entering the Stanley Cup finals tomorrow. Veteran leadership and league experience would go a long way.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

I don't think a single GM in the league would choose Pettersson over Tavares if they were entering the Stanley Cup finals tomorrow. Veteran leadership and league experience would go a long way.

I think the opposite. Maybe a handful take Tavares but I doubt it. It’s not like his leadership has been that great this year tbh. Take the better player imo. That’s Pettersson.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

The amount of goals against Tavares is on the ice for has a "great effect" on goaltending? I think you have that backwards

The stats don't lie. I posted a 3 year sampling of his 5v5 GA60 stats, now unless you think this is a great coincidence how do you explain why he is always one of the worst metrics wise in GA on his team? When you give up quality chances like he does. Goaltending is not the issue. I hope the excuse is not goaltending or the GM again. At some point, Tavares has to share some of the blame. I never hear that from Leafs fans. Where ever Tavares has played, the lack of defence follows. Coincidence?

2017-18 Isles with Tavares worst defensive team in the NHL (31st)
2018-19 Isles without Tavares best team defensively in the NHL (1st)

Tavares 5v5 GA60

17-18 3.16 5th worst on the Islanders
Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

18-19 5v5 2.68 GA60 4th worst on the Leafs
Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

He is last in 5v5 GA60 3.34 on the Leafs this year.
Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

 

[Rhaegar Targaryen]

This isn't blaming the GM, so how about saying Mike Babcock being stubborn is why Toronto didn't advance last year and that had nothing to do with how Tavares played.

In Game 6 when Toronto was up 3-2 in the series and leading 1-0 in the 1st period, he puts Zach Hyman on the faceoff during a penalty kill and Hyman loses the faceoff to Bergeron. Seconds later Brad Marchand ties the game 1-1. I bring that up since Babcock knew Hyman was playing with a torn ACL, so why didn't Babcock have Tavares, Matthews, or Gauthier taking the faceoff since they were natural centres?

Later in that same game in the 3rd period when Auston Matthews scores to make it a 3-2 Boston lead, on the ensuing faceoff Babcock sends out Gauthier and the 4th line like he always did after a goal was scored, if his line wasn't previously on the ice. Doing that kills their momentum not keeping Matthews line out or going to the Tavares line.

Tavares was dogshit during the playoffs last year. An absolute ghost who got dominated by Bergeron.

 

[Draiskull]

I don't think a single GM in the league would choose Pettersson over Tavares if they were entering the Stanley Cup finals tomorrow. Veteran leadership and league experience would go a long way.

Would GMs take Matthews over Tavares? McDavid?
Pettersson is a highly dynamic player and should be more desirable by all GMs than JT. If you want to just focus on these playoffs this year ignoring salary etc then sure a case can be made for JT over McDavid as well.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Tavares was dogshit during the playoffs last year. An absolute ghost who got dominated by Bergeron.

Bergeron had zero goals and one assist at 5v5, so you're wrong

 

[Isaac Nootin]

I think the opposite. Maybe a handful take Tavares but I doubt it. It’s not like his leadership has been that great this year tbh. Take the better player imo. That’s Pettersson.

In what ways exactly has his leadership not been great. How do you know one way or the other.