Tavares vs. Pettersson

Tavares or Pettersson (to try & win NOW)


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CatchyTune

JOHN TAVARES IS A MAPLE LEAF
Jan 8, 2016
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Thomas Greiss also stood on his head that series, but you wouldn't know that or even mention it because it doesn't help your argument.
Robin Lehner was better in the 2018-19 playoffs.

Greiss in 2015-16 playoffs had a 2.46 GAA and a .923 SV%

Lehner in 2018-19 playoffs had a 2.00 GAA and a .936 SV%

So does the same excuse go for Barzal last year?
 
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PWJunior

Stay safe!
Apr 11, 2010
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Robin Lehner was better in the 2018-19 playoffs.

Greiss in 2015-16 playoffs had a 2.46 GAA and a .923 SV%

Lehner in 2018-19 playoffs had a 2.00 GAA and a .936 SV%

So does the same excuse go for Barzal last year?

When did I mention Barzal ever in this thread? This post is actually the first time I am doing so.

I merely stated what really happened, that Greiss played a very prominent role in helping the Isles win that series. I am not someone who has been clinging to this stupid ass argument in the first place...

Since you want to quote stats, what were Greiss' stats in the Florida series only? Probably better than the stats you supplied since he wasn't as good in Tampa Bay series.
 

Romang67

BitterSwede
Jan 2, 2011
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When did I mention Barzal ever in this thread? This post is actually the first time I am doing so.

I merely stated what really happened, that Greiss played a very prominent role in helping the Isles win that series. I am not someone who has been clinging to this stupid ass argument in the first place...

Since you want to quote stats, what were Greiss' stats in the Florida series only? Probably better than the stats you supplied since he wasn't as good in Tampa Bay series.
94.4% over 6 games, with 88 saves out of 90 shots in the last two games to clinch the series.

It was pretty bonkers.
 

CatchyTune

JOHN TAVARES IS A MAPLE LEAF
Jan 8, 2016
5,757
4,611
Ontario
When did I mention Barzal ever in this thread? This post is actually the first time I am doing so.

I merely stated what really happened, that Greiss played a very prominent role in helping the Isles win that series. I am not someone who has been clinging to this stupid ass argument in the first place...

Since you want to quote stats, what were Greiss' stats in the Florida series only? Probably better than the stats you supplied since he wasn't as good in Tampa Bay series.
If you wanna go there, I would be willing to bet Lehners stats in the Pittsburgh series were much better than the Carolina series.
 
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Dekes For Days

Registered User
Sep 24, 2018
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We have heard that excuse from you already. It's the goaltending
It's not an excuse. You're using a stat that's most heavily impacted by goaltending, and then using it with no context to make a false claim about a player's defense.
This is affected by the same things that all 5vs5 or ES p60 stats are
No, they are not all affected by the same things, and not all affect to the same extent.
You're a big proponent of these advanced stats when judging a player's offensive contributions, so what "defensive stat" or collection of defensive stats would you suggested comes closest to painting an accurate picture of how good or bad a player is defensively?
There is no defensive stat that accurately portrays individual defensive impact, especially for forwards. Forwards in general have much less individual impact on defensive results than people tend to think. xGA/60 would be much more valuable than GA/60 though, because at least that's attempting to measure defense; it just doesn't accurately measure individual impact for the #3-5th most impacting player on the ice.
 
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Sidney the Kidney

One last time
Jun 29, 2009
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If you wanna go there, I would be willing to bet Lehners stats in the Pittsburgh series were much better than the Carolina series.

I'd say the difference between the two series and the performance of the respective goalies (Lehner and Greiss) comes down to the fact the Isles and Florida were about on par, or even the Panthers having the better of the play and Greiss badly outplaying Luongo was the difference between one team moving on to the second round, whereas in the Pens series the Islanders, as a team, badly outplayed the Pens.

And before you post Murray's stats that round, yes Lehner DID outplay him. But the two teams in front of each goalie were night and day in how they played. The Isles played structured and gave Lehner every chance to succeed, while the Pens basically left Murray out to dry. Not the case in the Isles/Florida series, where both teams were kind of loosey-goosey defensively, but Greiss bailed his team out more than Luongo did.
 

Sidney the Kidney

One last time
Jun 29, 2009
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There is no defensive stat that accurately portrays individual defensive impact, especially for forwards. Forwards in general have much less individual impact on defensive results than people tend to think. xGA/60 would be much more valuable than GA/60 though, because at least that's attempting to measure defense; it just doesn't accurately measure individual impact for the #3-5th most impacting player on the ice.

So then how do you conclude that Tavares isn't bad defensively? What criteria/method are you using to determine this, if the stats available to us don't indicate whether a player is good or bad defensively?
 
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PWJunior

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94.4% over 6 games, with 88 saves out of 90 shots in the last two games to clinch the series.

It was pretty bonkers.

Yup, that sounds about right. Greiss was insane that series and helped carry the team to the next round. This suggestion by some Toronto fans that Pajamas carried the team by himself is laughable and disingenuous.

If you wanna go there, I would be willing to bet Lehners stats in the Pittsburgh series were much better than the Carolina series.

I wasn't ever going there and I am not willing to go on yet another deflection tangent.

My point was to give a more accurate picture of what exactly happened that playoff series. Greiss played a major role in that win. Anyone who says otherwise doesn't know what they're talking about. I don't subscribe to the Patches O'Houlihan school of dodge, duck, dip, dive, and dodge.
 
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Sidney the Kidney

One last time
Jun 29, 2009
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What I have said is that you can't use small sample GA/60 stats (or youtube clips) to evaluate the defensive ability of forwards, and that many greatly exaggerate the individual impact that forwards have on defense in the first place.

Do you believe Tavares is good defensively? If so, based on what?

And in a broader sense (not directly at you), I've seen Toronto fans in this thread mention Tavares having the big edge defensively over Pettersson. Based on what, if defensive advanced metrics aren't reliable in proving that?
 

Dekes For Days

Registered User
Sep 24, 2018
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Do you believe Tavares is good defensively? If so, based on what?
I think he's average defensively, based on significant viewings and the defensive statistics that do exist, in the context of his role, competition, and environment.
And in a broader sense (not directly at you), I've seen Toronto fans in this thread mention Tavares having the big edge defensively over Pettersson.
I don't believe this is true, and I don't think it would matter much if it was.
 
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The Winter Soldier

Registered User
Apr 4, 2011
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It's not an excuse. You're using a stat that's most heavily impacted by goaltending, and then using it with no context to make a false claim about a player's defense.

No, they are not all affected by the same things, and not all affect to the same extent.

There is no defensive stat that accurately portrays individual defensive impact, especially for forwards. Forwards in general have much less individual impact on defensive results than people tend to think. xGA/60 would be much more valuable than GA/60 though, because at least that's attempting to measure defense; it just doesn't accurately measure individual impact for the #3-5th most impacting player on the ice.
GA does not accurately portray defensive impact? Is this s double negative? GA60 5v5 is an advanced stat that measures a player's rate where he is on the ice when a goal is scored against. It does not get more finite that that.

Don't you post a lot of stats on this site and state them as facts? Surely you believe them or you wouldn't. It's not hard to understand when a player year in year out is the worst in this stat, surely it is not just the goalies, teammates, or defence they play with. There is one overriding common denominator, that is John Tavares is on the ice when a 5v5 GA60 goal is scored.
 

TS Quint

I can see!
Sep 8, 2012
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Over the past 4 years the Toronto Maple Leafs have the same amount of playoff appearances as Garth Snows' Islanders had from 2006-2018.

Also not like Dubas has been here 2 years and Snow had 12 years. "StIlL oNe MoRe RoUnD tHaN dUbAs" :dunce:
Barzal >>>Tavares with this logic.
 

The Winter Soldier

Registered User
Apr 4, 2011
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Correct, especially in these small samples. It is a stat most impacted by goaltending, not an individual forward's defensive ability.
3 years in a row with a over 700 mins 5v5 sampling per season is small? You can blame goaltending all you want. But no one is that unlucky. If you are saying Tavares is just one unlucky player to have 3 years in a row his team's worst 5v5 GA60 stats. That's not much of a rebuttal.
 

Frankie Blueberries

Allergic to draft picks
Jan 27, 2016
9,134
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Tavares now, but Pettersson for the future (as soon as the 2020-2021 season, IMO). I think it's a slam dunk Pettersson outproduces Tavares in at least one of the next three seasons, which would become the norm in the future. We'll see though.
 

Breakers

Make Mirrored Visors Legal Again
Aug 5, 2014
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Denver Colorado
Tavares now, but Pettersson for the future (as soon as the 2020-2021 season, IMO). I think it's a slam dunk Pettersson outproduces Tavares in at least one of the next three seasons, which would become the norm in the future. We'll see though.

He already outproduced him this year.
 

The Winter Soldier

Registered User
Apr 4, 2011
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I said Greiss is one reason they won and Tavares was the other reason.

Also you don't think they are saying Greiss was more important because they are still pissed that Tavares left them for Toronto, so they don't want to admit he was a reason why they won in 2016?
I would trust Isles fans to recollect better than you posting random videos, they would know best how important Greiss was in that playoff series. Not a Leafs fan telling Isles fans who was most important in a series they didn't watch.
 
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Dekes For Days

Registered User
Sep 24, 2018
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You can blame goaltending all you want. But no one is that unlucky. If you are saying Tavares is just one unlucky player to have 3 years in a row his team's worst 5v5 GA60 stats.
He hasn't had his team's worst 5v5 GA/60 3 years in a row, you're looking at this stat with zero context, and yes, it's very common to get bad goaltending in multiple years on a team with bad goaltending.
 

The Winter Soldier

Registered User
Apr 4, 2011
70,803
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He hasn't had his team's worst 5v5 GA/60 3 years in a row, you're looking at this stat with zero context, and yes, it's very common to get bad goaltending in multiple years on a team with bad goaltending.
This was presented to you in an earlier post. What stats are you using?

Tavares 5v5 GA60

17-18 3.16 5th worst on the Islanders
Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

18-19 5v5 2.68 GA60 4th worst on the Leafs
Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

19-20 5v5 GA60 3.34 worst on the Leafs this year.
Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick
 

The Winter Soldier

Registered User
Apr 4, 2011
70,803
21,006
How is it a random video showing Tavares scoring the game tying goal and series winning goal?

I guess that goes against the videos you posted where Tavares made a mistake that resulted in a goal against Toronto.
Are you serious? I posted that it is far more likely an Islanders fan, a former moderator of this site would know how important Greiss was to the Isles against Florida and you deflect to Tavares. Did you watch that series, be honest, you didn't did you.
 

Sidney the Kidney

One last time
Jun 29, 2009
55,670
46,538
It's one thing to say Thomas Greiss played very well for the Islanders in the net. However all he could do is stop the puck, where as Tavares lead them in scoring with 5 goals and 4 assists in the six games.

That's an interesting way to downplay Greiss and prop up Tavares.
 

Tralfamadore

Don't Panic.
Sep 25, 2011
8,551
7,050
To win a cup now I'd have to take JT.

Id take EP going forward he's certainly more valuable but don't blame the Leafs fans for defending their boy here.
 

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