Tavares vs. Pettersson

[Dekes For Days]

This was presented to you in an earlier post.

What was presented to me was stats showing that he didn't have the worst 5v5 GA/60 on his team for 3 years. What was presented to me was stats willfully ignoring all context, showing a fundamental lack of understanding of what GA/60 stats show and what can affect them. What was presented to me was repeated use of a stat that has little to nothing to do with individual forward defensive ability, to suggest something incorrect about Tavares' defensive ability.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I think he's average defensively, based on significant viewings and the defensive statistics that do exist, in the context of his role, competition, and environment.

That's fair, and that's probably what I'd describe him as, as well.

I don't believe this is true, and I don't think it would matter much if it was.

This quote from a Leaf fan, plus the two "likes" it received suggests that it's more than one Leaf fan who feels Tavares has an obvious edge defensively over Pettersson.

Good thing Tavares doesn't just need goals. He also happens to be a vastly superior point producer as well. Better defensively and much better on faceoffs as well.

Pettersson really doesn't measure up to Tavares in any aspect really.

Comparing a 20 some goal 66 point player to a proven 47-goal 88 point center? That's precisely a vastly superior point producer. 22 points isn't enough for you?

Tavares very clearly has an edge in pretty well every aspect. Pettersson is very lucky to have J.T Miller cover for him in terms of defense and faceoffs.

 

[FlameChampion]

I am surprised the poll is as close as it is. I guess we will see what Petterson does in the playoffs.

Not a Canucks fan but I love the player. Kid is awesome. I easily pick Petterson.

 

[PWJunior]

That's an interesting way to downplay Greiss and prop up Tavares.

I don't know what was dumber, that post or the hijacking of the "Best playmakers" thread that you enjoyed so very much...

 

[The Winter Soldier]

What was presented to me was stats showing that he didn't have the worst 5v5 GA/60 on his team for 3 years. What was presented to me was stats willfully ignoring all context, showing a fundamental lack of understanding of what GA/60 stats show and what can affect them. What was presented to me was repeated use of a stat that has little to nothing to do with individual forward defensive ability, to suggest something incorrect about Tavares' defensive ability.

Really, 5v5 GA60 stats are not a metric to measure defensive ability? A 3 year sampling of over 2100 TOI mins? You mention willful ignorance? Perfect example right there. Then it should be easy to prove Tavares is good defensively these past 3 years. Let's see what you got.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I don't know what was dumber, that post or the hijacking of the "Best playmakers" thread that you enjoyed so very much...

I'm just trying to wrap my head around the idea that goalies can't be more important than a skater because all he can do is stop the puck.

What?

Apparently Tim Thomas should give back his Conn Smythe because he scored 0 goals that playoffs and all he had to do was stop the puck.

 

[Dekes For Days]

This quote from a Leaf fan, plus the two "likes" it received suggests that it's more than one Leaf fan who feels Tavares has an obvious edge defensively over Pettersson.

I meant I don't personally feel that way. I'm sure Pettersson has had a lot of people voting for him for some imagined defensive advantage as well. It's all ridiculous.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I don't expect you to believe me but I did watch more of that series then you must think.

Then you would know Greiss was instrumental in winning the series. Go ahead say it. Just want to hear you admit it.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Really, 5v5 GA60 stats are not a metric to measure defensive ability?

No. It's a measure of defense and goaltending; mostly goaltending, and is affected by countless factors outside of individual ability, especially for a forward.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

No. It's a measure of defense and goaltending; mostly goaltending, and is affected by countless factors outside of individual ability. Playing tough minutes on a team with bad goaltending doesn't make you bad defensively.

Well you are wrong. Why do advanced stats sites publish GA60 or GF60 then? It has been widely used for years now to measure scoring and defensive efficiency.

BTW Playing tough minutes on a team with bad goaltending doesn't make you bad defensively as the reason to explain Tavares GA60 5v5 stats for 3 years is a stretch of an excuse you are making. 3 years of bad goaltending and tough mins over 2100 TOI. The poor unlucky 11M dollar player excuse does not add up.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Well you are wrong.

No, I am 100% correct.

Why do advanced stats sites publish them then?

More information is still better than no information, and the data is collected for team stats anyway, but they are not intended to be used in isolation with no context to evaluate individual forward defensive ability. That's just something you have chosen to do to make the Leaf player look worse and make claims that aren't true, even though this has been explained to you multiple times.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I never asked PW, however since he or she is an Islanders fan obviously they would watch that whole series. I asked if you watched any of it?

So you would know how important Greiss was in the series right? Are you going to avoid answering this? I know I watched some of the series. But PW is the person who I would trust watched the entire series.

No, I am 100% correct.

Not even close.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

EP's defensive metrics in GA60 are a goal better than Tavares this season. The only advantage Tavares has is on faceoffs, goals, production are close, slight edge to EP. Experience in playoffs is not a factor, Tavares has one playoff win in his career, this is not enough of a positive to choose him. EP is my choice.

 

[NinjaKick]

gotta go with the vet for the rest of this season...
that said I understand voting for EP, he's gonna be a special player if he isn't already

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

It's not an excuse. You're using a stat that's most heavily impacted by goaltending, and then using it with no context to make a false claim about a player's defense.

So if a goalie, over the course of a full season, has a .880 sv average when player X is on the ice as opposed to .900 whwn player X is not on the ice, it Has nothing to do with the defensive abilities of player X ?

What a magical world you live in !!!

PS: I know that you're smarter than that.

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

it's very common to get bad goaltending in multiple years on a team with bad goaltending.

That's not the point and you know it.

If bad goaltending is consistently worse when player X is on the ice, what does it say about player X ?

Unlucky, snake-bitten or (Occam's Razor) defensive deficiensies ?

 

[CaptnCanada]

I would take John Tavares right now for the playoffs, but if I am starting a franchise I would take Elias Pettersson.

 

[Dekes For Days]

If bad goaltending is consistently worse when player X is on the ice, what does it say about player X ?

When player X is tied for a distant last place among players on the ice in terms of individual impact on defensive/goaltending results, not much. For most forwards, it would most often indicate that they go up against the other team's best offensive players a lot, but drawing any conclusions (especially about individual forward defensive ability) from a stat like that, especially without context, makes no sense.

 

[TS Quint]

When player X is tied for a distant last place among players on the ice in terms of individual impact on defensive/goaltending results, not much. For most forwards, it would most often indicate that they go up against the other team's best offensive players a lot, but drawing any conclusions (especially about individual forward defensive ability) from a stat like that, especially without context, makes no sense.

Matthews gets the top match ups.