Tank or re-tool on the fly?

[Alpha]

As Benning said you have to train the kids to be winners and you can't do that by being surrounded by losers.

Can't train kids to be winners if you're not winning, period.

If we try to remain competitive by signing over-the-hill FAs we're going to end up in a Calgary like situation. Don't see how that environment is any better than flat out bottoming out. Tanking absolutely works (Oilers ineptitude aside, they're just terrible).

Grabbing guys in this draft to go with a (presumably) high lottery pick would move things along faster.

 

[Blue Suede Shoes]

If we want to pick in the top 5, we just need to not sign anyone on July 1st.

Ride Lack for 65 games OR play Markstrom despite him sucking.

Have the Sedins and Hamhuis take extended breaks even with the smallest injuries. They miss a combined 20-30 games, we're guaranteed a top 3 pick.

Our roster without Henrik, Hamhuis and UFA additions:

Daniel-Bonino-Burrows
Higgins-Vey-Kassian
Hansen-Richardson-Matthias
Sestito-Dorsett-AHLer

Stanton-Bieksa
Edler-Tanev
Sbisa-Corrado

This lineup looks marginally better than Buffalo and Calgary in terms of talent. We'd be good for a top 3 pick with this. Add in a few more injuries (inevitable) to our blueline? We might not actually outsuck Buffalo, but we'll have a shot at Eichel, if not McDavid.

I'm not saying I disagree, but do you think you are really being realistic?

You're suggesting the Sedins and Hamhuis just sit out for large parts of the season because they have minor injuries? Pretty much 100% of hockey players have injuries most of the time, minor or major. They play through them. And you know what kind of warriors the Sedins are - how many games have they missed over the last decade? They play through basically anything. They aren't just going to sit out. And the coach isn't going to sit them out, or he would be trying to lose. I'm don't think an NHL coach would do that.

Hamhuis is a warrior too. I don't see him taking any extra time off. The only way that would happen is if you have management come in and order players to sit out. And I don't think that is realistic.

Also, I expect Lack to be better than last year with a year of experience under his belt. And I think the coaches would only play Markstrom if he's playing well. Or at least playing the best out of our current goalies. I don't think coaches ever try to lose.

 

[Wilch]

I'm not saying I disagree, but do you think you are really being realistic?

You're suggesting the Sedins and Hamhuis just sit out for large parts of the season because they have minor injuries? Pretty much 100% of hockey players have injuries most of the time, minor or major. They play through them. And you know what kind of warriors the Sedins are - how many games have they missed over the last decade? They play through basically anything. They aren't just going to sit out. And the coach isn't going to sit them out, or he would be trying to lose. I'm don't think an NHL coach would do that.

Hamhuis is a warrior too. I don't see him taking any extra time off. The only way that would happen is if you have management come in and order players to sit out. And I don't think that is realistic.

Also, I expect Lack to be better than last year with a year of experience under his belt. And I think the coaches would only play Markstrom if he's playing well. Or at least playing the best out of our current goalies. I don't think coaches ever try to lose.

I don't expect the Sedins or Hamhuis to sit out from a bruised finger.

At the same time, I don't think the management needs to "order" them to sit out, but rather talk them into healing up rather than diving head first into a physically demanding league.

I expect them to get injured, nurse the injuries and become ineffective and also more susceptible to additional injuries.

I don't expect Desjardins to purposely play the crappy goalie - but if Markstrom is sub-par and he's forced to play Lack 65+ games, we will lose a good portion of those back to backs, long road trips and the final bit when Lack is inevitably dead tired.

Either way, if Benning makes no acquisitions or signings, I think it's clear he's trying to set this team up for a really nice pick.

If historical trends tell us anything, it tell us a couple of our key players will go down to injury and we'll go on a few losing streaks. When the line up is as thin as it is now, things are looking even more bleak.

 

[Hi-wayman]

The only thing that I have an issue with here is that the Sedins won't be the Sedins we know and love. They're older, slower and won't get the same amount of bang for their stride. They're great players, but they're time, I believe is done, especially as the game passes them by because of the size, speed and physicality of the ones younger than them on various teams.

It is what it is.

I like your enthusiasm but I think you are looking too much at the estimated potential of our top prospects, forgetting that is the estimate they are projected to reach in their late 20's if trained properly and allowed to develop. I also think you are grossly undervaluing the skill level and athleticism of our current roster players and especially that of the Sedins.

The jump from Junior to the AHL is very substantial. The jump from Junior to the NHL is enormous. NHL players are expected to be at a level that they don't need to hone their hockey skills and attitude, just a need to improve technique. A NHL coach or assistant coach doesn't have time to teach basic skills. That is what the AHL is for. To help the player develop his skill level as well as teach that player an attitude to win and what effort and physical training is required to reach those levels instinctively. Every roster player on the Canucks started out with as much or more hockey potential as does our current prospect players. They made it to the NHL because they were allowed to develop properly in the minors first.

If you think the Sedins are no longer top NHL players, you are wrong. Age does affect athleticism but the Sedins are still in the best condition of all the Canuck players. Not only are they likely to continue playing for many more years, they remain the example of how to keep in shape for all the rest of the team. Plus you forget that age also usually brings out increased knowledge and experience on how to adapt and compensate. The Sedins production, especially last season is due to them being asked to do other duties that took away from their ability to score.

A team as a whole does not age and be unable to play all together in one or even two or three seasons. Torts and his attempt to change how all the players were expected to play was the cause of last years disaster. It turns out that Kesler was also a bit of a locker room cancer also. The team went from a certain playoff team at the beginning of the season to a bickering, bottom team by Christmas.

I have no doubt, even with the new tougher conference makeup that the Canucks are still good enough to be a playoff team and any team that makes the playoffs and can stay healthy can be a cup contender. The league is too balanced now. Bringing up our prospects now, other then the occasional 10 game trial, is a mistake. They need to develop properly in the minors for at least 1 to 3 years.

The concept of tanking is wrong, bordering on cheating or trying to beat the system, and gives the players and the public the wrong impression of team values. If we do our best to win but end up losing so be it, but to purposely try or even just to hope to lose teaches the wrong message. That is how a 13 year old with his still limited me first view of the world may think, not how an adult who knows better is expected to want the team to represent sportsmanship and community leadership.

 

[mavstar]

Looks like the Canucks will be going for McD. Unless we sign like 3 UFA forwards, we won't be scoring for ***** next season.

 

[Chubros]

Funny, last year I predicted the Canucks would have a miserable time making the playoffs and people dismissed it.

I am not for tanking and i'm not for trying to build a team in free-agency. What I would like is some astute short term deals tomorrow that can be flipped at a deadline (2015 or 16) should the team continue to be poor.

What I do NOT want is long-term deals with NTCs that are un-moveable. There's no player in free-agency right now I'd give a big deal to, none (in terms of term length).

That said you still have to experiment in the market and you still need a team... you can't just not try (though I guess Buffalo is doing that... but that is pathetic...).

As Benning said you have to train the kids to be winners and you can't do that by being surrounded by losers.

That's a good post. You have to create a winning environment if you want to be successful. And signing FAs on short term deals only to flip them for extra picks later is a great way to speed up a rebuild.

 

[realist99]

Thankfully we can put this post to bed. Canuck's are not going to sit back and not try and get better...they aren't going to "rest" guys during the year and they aren't going to play Lack 65+ games.

Sorry boys, this ain't GM mode in Madden Football or NHL 14

 

[Street Hawk]

If you think the Sedins are no longer top NHL players, you are wrong. Age does affect athleticism but the Sedins are still in the best condition of all the Canuck players. Not only are they likely to continue playing for many more years, they remain the example of how to keep in shape for all the rest of the team. Plus you forget that age also usually brings out increased knowledge and experience on how to adapt and compensate. The Sedins production, especially last season is due to them being asked to do other duties that took away from their ability to score.

A team as a whole does not age and be unable to play all together in one or even two or three seasons. Torts and his attempt to change how all the players were expected to play was the cause of last years disaster. It turns out that Kesler was also a bit of a locker room cancer also. The team went from a certain playoff team at the beginning of the season to a bickering, bottom team by Christmas.

I have no doubt, even with the new tougher conference makeup that the Canucks are still good enough to be a playoff team and any team that makes the playoffs and can stay healthy can be a cup contender. The league is too balanced now. Bringing up our prospects now, other then the occasional 10 game trial, is a mistake. They need to develop properly in the minors for at least 1 to 3 years.
.

Twins, their production has slipped the past 3 years. Is it going to get any better in the next 4 years? Unlikely... Their PP production has dropped without a PMD like Ehrhoff. Who is replacing that? Not Sbisa. Still the same with Edler/Hamhuis/Bieksa etc. at the point.

My main concern is that the team doesn't have many young players ready to play yet. Right now, I'm pretty certain that Vey and Jensen will be on the opening day roster.

Horvat - either NHL/OHL for him. So, he has to impress at camp and make the coaching staff feel he can be a solid player for the entire season
Shinkaruk/Gaunce - both are AHL elibigle and should play there this year. Hunter is coming off an injury which cost him 2/3 of the season. Gaunce, just needs development time.
Virtanen/McCann - returned to junior

Who's left? Fox, Lain, Mallet, Grenier?

On D, I don't see anyone outside of Corrado who is ready. And even with Frank, he might be better served in the AHL, unless the coaching staff believe that he will develop better in the NHL with Hamhuis, Bieksa, Edler, Sbisa, Tanev ahead of him so that he can learn.

 

[biturbo19]

Regardless of what people may or may not want, this team isn't built to "Tank" so long as the Sedins, Hamhuis, Bieksa, etc are still here. Once we exit that era fully and no longer have something resembling a top-line/top-pairing defenceman...that's when your window for "tanking" opens up if that's the route we want to take.

I'm not a big believer in the idea of "tanking" anyway. The teams that have "tanked" successfully have largely come by their awfulness honestly. Just naturally became terrible and secured top picks. Trying to artificially induce that level of "sucking" has a strong tendency to a really awful losing culture that has proved extremely difficult to scrub away for an awful lot of teams. These "tank jobs" aren't often just a 3 year deal, with a brilliant rise from the ashes turnaround at the end...they are often 6, 8, infinite type of ongoing struggles.

Somewhere along the line, we are going to need to find "elite talent" to play on our 1st line, top defensive pairing though. And realistically...the very top of the draft is where you find that. I just trust that the natural cycle of things will take this team right down to the bottom once we move on from the "Core" we still have in place here. At least, so long as the team doesn't do anything drastic to try to artificially extend the "window". Do whatever during the remaining Sedin years...sign some older free agents, try to get some help around them...but just keep everything tied up neatly to the Sedins as the "window" for that...and when they move on, just let the team slide peacefully into the cellar for a few years. Don't fight it. And don't screw up those precious high picks...do a much better job finding talent outside of the high 1st round picks...that's what really separates the good rebuilds from the infinite and terrible ones.

 

[Yammer]

I like it. This team is turning over quite a few key positions, Vey and Bonino up front (and it's not like Mattias is an old timer here), Sbisa and probably Corrado at the back, with Horvat and Shinkaruk getting long looks in the preseason.

There's a fluky chance this bunch could coalesce and be good.

But if not, parts can be sold off if the season is looking bleak around Christmas. It could be a tank then.

 

[Cocoa Crisp]

Looks like the Canucks will be going for McD. Unless we sign like 3 UFA forwards, we won't be scoring for ***** next season.

I'm not so sure. I think we've all been a bit brainwashed by years of AV and then torts. Both were really big on two way play, especially for rookies. Both preferred to lock things down, that was their comfort zone. Given more free license to inject fluidity and chaos into our offense, might help a lot with our perceived offensive deficiencies.

Might. Just throwing it out there since it seems to be largely ignored that Desjardins is very likely to implement a much more aggressive system than we've all been used to seeing. It might not help us in the standings, but we might be griping about a different slew of issues once the season is underway.

 

[skg]

I like it. This team is turning over quite a few key positions, Vey and Bonino up front (and it's not like Mattias is an old timer here), Sbisa and probably Corrado at the back, with Horvat and Shinkaruk getting long looks in the preseason.

There's a fluky chance this bunch could coalesce and be good.

But if not, parts can be sold off if the season is looking bleak around Christmas. It could be a tank then.

Yeah, I can see the season being lost by Christmas. We were in it this year and then the wheels fell off. I can't see any improvement if we're relying on the Sedins and Miller who are way over the wrong side of 30. We're choosing a good year to suck.

 

[Wilch]

Yeah, I can see the season being lost by Christmas. We were in it this year and then the wheels fell off. I can't see any improvement if we're relying on the Sedins and Miller who are way over the wrong side of 30. We're choosing a good year to suck.

Wouldn't mind that at all.

If this team is done by December, it would be an excellent reason and chance to unload guys like Bieksa, Edler and Miller.

Not that I'm expecting the world for them, but a couple of 2015 first round picks would do wonders.

 

[Canucks LB]

I am absolutely sick and tired of people calling this CGY 2.0.

I am going to go off right now.

1. Bo Horvat
2. Jake Virtanen
3. Hunter Shinkaruk
4. Jared McCann
5. Nicklas Jensen
6. Frank Corrado
7. Brendan Gaunce
8. Cole Cassels
9. Ben Hutton
10. Thatcher Demko
11. Linden Vey
12. Dane Fox

That's our prospect Pool. Calgary had the worst prospect pool in the NHL by a LONG shot back when they traded Iginla. They traded picks for players, and absolutely destroyed any sort of prospect development they had.

Our prospect pool is rated TOP 10 In the entire NHL from the "NHL" Draft thread.

OUR Prospect pool was rated the "MOST IMPROVED TEAM LIST" Out of all NHL teams

We in TWO years have been considered having the BEST drafts out of nearly every team in the NHL.

The ONLY THING, and I mean ONLY thing we are missing with out prospect pool is a "Superstar" player. But we have Many players who COULD be stars, Like a Virtanen, Shinkaruk.

I am honestly sick of this Calgary 2.0 comments with absolutely ZERO credibly or Intelligent facts to Back up your claims.

This team and regime is trying to make a winning culture, so we don't have to go through what the Oilers did, making ZERO players wanting to go there, and making them a complete laughing stock of the NHL.

This team Wants to show these kids that if they work hard, they could be successful in life, and have a great career.

/rant

(Posting this here since Vrbata thread should be about him).

 

[Ubik]

None of the above, How about a proper re-build.

 

[Ryp37]

Not to mention Calgarys second best option at gettig futures was the Phaneuf trade and they did this instead
The Calgary Flames have traded defenceman Dion Phaneuf, forward Fredrik Sjostrom, and prospect defenceman Keith Aulie to the Toronto Maple Leafs in exchange for forwards Matt Stajan, Niklas Hagman, Jamal Mayers and defenceman Ian White

Lol

 

[y2kcanucks]

Not to mention Calgarys second best option at gettig futures was the Phaneuf trade and they did this instead
The Calgary Flames have traded defenceman Dion Phaneuf, forward Fredrik Sjostrom, and prospect defenceman Keith Aulie to the Toronto Maple Leafs in exchange for forwards Matt Stajan, Niklas Hagman, Jamal Mayers and defenceman Ian White

Lol

You Lol, but look at what we traded Kesler for.

 

[MikeGillisslashAVfan*]

Can't train kids to be winners if you're not winning, period.

and thats exactly why we wont turn into edmonton like you want , benning wants the team to be a hardworking team

calgary is a hardworking team now , even if they are not killing it in the W category they are not being blown out like van was last season

there losing by a goal here or there , i don't have a problem with that

i think calgary will be a contender faster then edmonton ever will because of it

that and a horrible front office

 

[MikeGillisslashAVfan*]

You Lol, but look at what we traded Kesler for.

for way better return that ??

 

[Shareefruck]

I feel like Calgary is in better shape than we are right now, personally.

 

[Wilch]

You Lol, but look at what we traded Kesler for.

Not that I liked the Kesler trade, but if we went Calgary's route we probably would have acquired Beauchemin rather than the 24th and Sbisa. Probably would have given up a prospect too. Might have used the cap space to sign some ****** bag like Bolland to a long term contract as well.

Though I would have liked more, at least some futures came back.

I don't like Benning's direction, because he knows this team needs a rebuild yet he's taking half measure moves to keep the owners and casual fans happy.

But it is what it is. This team will move in a direction the owners want.

 

[LiquidSnake]

I feel like Calgary is in better shape than we are right now, personally.

Much better Center depth in their prospects

 

[Ryp37]

You Lol, but look at what we traded Kesler for.

So no pick and a couple of scrubs who left after the year was over is comparable to a 26 year old roster player and a first?

Lol

 

[Wilch]

Much better Center depth in their prospects

Pity we had to win against them and the Kings.

If we lost those two meaningless games we'd have Bennett and instantly leapfrog Calgary in the rebuild, despite the fact that they started much earlier than we did.

 

[Dezmoto]

So no pick and a couple of scrubs who left after the year was over is comparable to a 26 year old roster player and a first?

Lol

And a D