Tank or re-tool on the fly?

[Snatcher Demko]

Anaheim. Another good team without a top 5 pick on their roster ...whoops, forgot Bryan Allen 4th overall by the Canuck's !

Anaheim has drafted exceptionally well. But they had the luxury of carrying elite talent through a period of drafting top 8 (and lucking out on Fowler).

 

[BobbyJazzLegs]

I just want us to have the best environment possible for our young guys - the ones we have now and that ones we haven't drafted yet - to grow in. I think that will be far more important and valuable in this club's future than any draft pick we can muster on it's own.

Rushing the kids or throwing them to the wolves would not be worth it to climb a couple of spots in the race for McDavid. As much of a coup McDavid would be, there are other ways to win.

I think that will be the real "change" we're going to see.

 

[Takumi3000]

Anaheim. Another good team without a top 5 pick on their roster ...whoops, forgot Bryan Allen 4th overall by the Canuck's !

Anaheim drafted 2/3 of their top line forwards in the deepest 1st round draft in NHL history.

 

[Pip]

Williams is not their #1 Defencemen. He is able to do what he can because he is surrounded by franchise players in Kopitar and Doughty.

I can't believe we are even arguing. Do you think this lowly of Doughty? Why would you? How many Dmen at his age can do what he can do?

Of course not, Doughty is absolutely a franchise defenseman, I just don't think using # of cups won is a good way to argue it.

 

[realist99]

Anaheim drafted 2/3 of their top line forwards in the deepest 1st round draft in NHL history.

and? It just means many teams got good players also. Not all though ..Hugh Jessiman says hello. They still had to draft those guys This year was considered deep without any can't miss superstars. Next year has some stars projected.

The point is they didn't need to tank to get top 5 picks.

 

[nameless1]

So I think we are at about 80% agreement

-I don't know if Benning can do it either. If I had to bet a dollar though I would place it on a career long scout in Benning over a player agent in Gillis
- tough to tear it down completely for a 1 year tank. They would need to get rid of Sedins, Hamhuis, Edler, Burrows, Bieksa. Then what? Over pay plugs to get to the cap floor? That's not going to happen..ever. So even if you wanted to tank, you couldn't.
- I don't agree scouting has reached a saturation level where people are rarely wrong. Not even close. The main reason because you are drafting undeveloped 18 year olds. It's a crap shoot. Give 10 minutes and anyone can build a team of 3rd round picks and later and have a SC winning team.

I would agree more with the people that want to tank if it wasn't a salary cap system. Since it is, I think more than ever it doesn't pay off to tank. Paying maximum money to one player at say 11 million next year = 15+% of your payroll. There is a reason the NFL doesn't have dynasties anymore. Salary caps make sure it doesn't happen.

Mainly...
I did not agree with the Boston comparison.
Because they are two different situations.
I also think Boston completely lucked out...
And it can not be repeated.

To be clear...
I think there are merits to either a retool or a complete rebuild...
And I do not advocate one over the other.
If there are any time for a tear down...
This is it...
Since 2015 is supposed to be the strongest draft in years...
And I do not think all the scouts can be wrong.

A retool is also fine...
Because a successful team needs a mix of veterans and young players...
Or the team will be a bunch of lost sheeps...
Just like the Oilers.
However...
Benning should have gotten more futures...
In the form of high draft picks...
Or top prospects...
And not guys who are in their prime...
Or about to hit their prime.
By the time the top teams decline...
Or the Canucks is finally ready to compete...
In a couple of years...
Those guys he acquired will be at the tail-end of their prime at best...
And at worst...
Just in the midst of their decline.

That is my biggest issue with his moves...
Because I do not think a middle of the road method will work out that well.
Again...
I sincerely hope he is smarter than me...
And he gets the last laugh.
This is one matter I do not mind being completely wrong.

 

[Pip]

They lost a cancer in the room and the number 5 d-man on their depth chart earning top 4 money. They're better off without both.

They're most definitely not a better team without Garrison and Kesler, both of which have shown the ability to handle tough minutes

 

[opendoor]

As I have already shown.

Boston - Not one player on roster picked in top 5
LA - 2 players on roster picked in the top 5. Only one of them they drafted (Doughty). Gaborik they traded for in a salary dump.
Anaheim - 1 player on roster picked in the top 5 ..Bryan Allen

So false, you don't need to tank and get top 5 picks to build a good team ....

They also traded a top 5 pick (Schenn) to get Mike Richards. And they got Kopitar and Brown in drafts where they missed the playoffs. And they're a desirable market to play in which makes it easier to attract talent.

So that's 4 key players that they couldn't have gotten without poor seasons. And even other moves (like acquiring Johnson which led to Carter) were rooted in them accepting shorter term pain for long term gain.

 

[Takumi3000]

and? It just means many teams got good players also. Not all though ..Hugh Jessiman says hello. They still had to draft those guys This year was considered deep without any can't miss superstars. Next year has some stars projected.

The point is they didn't need to tank to get top 5 picks.

Haha Hugh Jessiman Rangers must have felt they won the lottery with that pick...

Your right. You don't always have to pick high to draft great players. I mean just look at Detroit. Their top 2 Centers are drafted in round 6 (Datsyuk) and round 7 (Zetterburg) in back to back years.

Here's the problem. Not many teams can do this. Why? First of all you need capable scouts (which obviously vancouver does not possess) then a great development program. Lastly, there is a reason why prospects are drafted in projected order; because they have the best potential and higher chance to pan out. You can do this with lower picks, but what you are asking for is an outlier of a chance and not the norm.

 

[Takumi3000]

Of course not, Doughty is absolutely a franchise defenseman, I just don't think using # of cups won is a good way to argue it.

Maybe not. But I would like to think "key players" for Stanley Cup champion teams are probably franchise level. Why? Because you probably aren't going to be winning many Stanley Cups without those players.

 

[Jordalenko]

I just want us to have the best environment possible for our young guys - the ones we have now and that ones we haven't drafted yet - to grow in. I think that will be far more important and valuable in this club's future than any draft pick we can muster on it's own.

Rushing the kids or throwing them to the wolves would not be worth it to climb a couple of spots in the race for McDavid. As much of a coup McDavid would be, there are other ways to win.

I think that will be the real "change" we're going to see.

Word.

 

[Jordalenko]

This team is years away from being able to seriously compete with the likes of ANA, CHI and LA... and that's just in the West. There are a cpl teams out East who would probably steam roll is as well. Those who think we are a cpl band-aids away are living in a fantasy land. I never cheer for a loss but wouldn't lose any sleep over another terrible season that leaves us with a legit chance at one of the top 3 picks at next years draft. I would like us to allow some of our young kids into the lineup for a full year and avoid overpriced aging UFA's. Next years draft class has me drooling.

All true.

 

[arsmaster*]

If retooling on the fly means dipping largely into free agency to get chicken salad out of the chicken **** roster we just watched finish 25th overall in a 30 team league I think it's a fools endeavor. It's delaying the inevitable. The roster is already downgraded. There's plenty of youth to take their "growing pains".

I've changed my tune. This tank isn't Edmonton style either. I'd like to see what cgy did last year. Compete as hard as possible. Lose as much as possible. Be in a lot of games. Finish bottom 10.

2014 FA class is gross. Wait until 2015 if you want to speed it up at that time.

 

[realist99]

They also traded a top 5 pick (Schenn) to get Mike Richards. And they got Kopitar and Brown in drafts where they missed the playoffs. And they're a desirable market to play in which makes it easier to attract talent.

So that's 4 key players that they couldn't have gotten without poor seasons. And even other moves (like acquiring Johnson which led to Carter) were rooted in them accepting shorter term pain for long term gain.

Forgot about Schenn. Thank you. So that is two top 5 ..Schenn and Doughty. Kopitar was 11th and Brown was 13th....neither count as "tanking" to get into the top 5.

Some people here want the canucks blown up because they want top 5 picks ...because that is the only and best way to rebuild according to them. Which is incorrect

 

[realist99]

Haha Hugh Jessiman Rangers must have felt they won the lottery with that pick...

Your right. You don't always have to pick high to draft great players. I mean just look at Detroit. Their top 2 Centers are drafted in round 6 (Datsyuk) and round 7 (Zetterburg) in back to back years.

Here's the problem. Not many teams can do this. Why? First of all you need capable scouts (which obviously vancouver does not possess) then a great development program. Lastly, there is a reason why prospects are drafted in projected order; because they have the best potential and higher chance to pan out. You can do this with lower picks, but what you are asking for is an outlier of a chance and not the norm.

Couldn't agree more. that is why I am hoping that Benning and his contacts are now the unofficial scouts ...and the previous crew are now making coffee runs behind the scenes.

If Benning can't do it then you're right, it is unlikely to happen.

 

[David71]

just tank. team isnt good enough to compete with the chicago/l.a anahiems. roster is severly downgraded. depending on "ufa signings/trades. give it 3-4years when the kids are "ready to take over when the twins retire" just compete hard everynight win/lose doesnt matter hopefully get the 1st pick overall and take mcdavid

 

[Takumi3000]

Couldn't agree more. that is why I am hoping that Benning and his contacts are now the unofficial scouts ...and the previous crew are now making coffee runs behind the scenes.

If Benning can't do it then you're right, it is unlikely to happen.

I think Benning is a great scout. He has a proven track record after-all. The problem is that he is only 1 person. He also happens to have other responsibilities. He may not have the luxury to fly out to a small town in Sweden just to watch a potential kid play during the season.

He needs a capable scouting staff that compliments himself. I heard he wants to fire the old regime of scouts here in Vancouver but can't do it until their contracts expire. This will take some time.

 

[LickTheEnvelope]

Ya I'd rather they blow up the scouting staff rather than the next season...

 

[realist99]

Haha Hugh Jessiman Rangers must have felt they won the lottery with that pick...

Your right. You don't always have to pick high to draft great players. I mean just look at Detroit. Their top 2 Centers are drafted in round 6 (Datsyuk) and round 7 (Zetterburg) in back to back years.

Here's the problem. Not many teams can do this. Why? First of all you need capable scouts (which obviously vancouver does not possess) then a great development program. Lastly, there is a reason why prospects are drafted in projected order; because they have the best potential and higher chance to pan out. You can do this with lower picks, but what you are asking for is an outlier of a chance and not the norm.

You heard the joke about the 2 guys in the forest. One says to the other that if they see a bear ..run. The other guys says you can't outrun a bear.....and his friend says ..that's true, but I just have to outrun you.

Pretty much applies here. There are so many dysfunctional teams out there. Poorly managed ....impatient ...bad franchises that can't afford to spend to the cap. Teams like Philly who spend to get LeCavalier and ONE year later are trying to dump him?

Drafting half decently. Managing the salary cap and being able to spend to the cap. no reason the Canucks shouldn't be able to get back to where they were...without needed multiple top 5 picks

 

[realist99]

I think Benning is a great scout. He has a proven track record after-all. The problem is that he is only 1 person. He also happens to have other responsibilities. He may not have the luxury to fly out to a small town in Sweden just to watch a potential kid play during the season.

He needs a capable scouting staff that compliments himself. I heard he wants to fire the old regime of scouts here in Vancouver but can't do it until their contracts expire. This will take some time.

He has already said that he will still be making those trips because he has Linden holding the fort in Vancouver. I agree he can't do it on his own. I truly believe though that they will eventually deal with their poor scouting staff.

 

[Imuzi]

Definitely don't tank Oilers style...

Ideally i'd like UFA's on short term deals so if the re-tool blows up they can be moved for assets and the rebuild thus commences.

Bingo.

Get the UFAs in on 1 or 2 year deals and if (probably more like when ) we lose the plot during the season deal them for all them sweet sweet 1st/2nd draft picks and prospects.

 

[LickTheEnvelope]

Bingo.

Get the UFAs in on 1 or 2 year deals and if (probably more like when ) we lose the plot during the season deal them for all them sweet sweet 1st/2nd draft picks and prospects.

Yup. That's my thinking. Get a few good vets in (Iginla ... maybe Whitney etc)... If/when it goes south get a couple extra picks and move on.

Deepen the pool.

 

[Pip]

Maybe not. But I would like to think "key players" for Stanley Cup champion teams are probably franchise level. Why? Because you probably aren't going to be winning many Stanley Cups without those players.

Williams was the MVP for them in their last cup win

 

[Snatcher Demko]

Mainly...
I did not agree with the Boston comparison.
Because they are two different situations.
I also think Boston completely lucked out...
And it can not be repeated.

To be clear...
I think there are merits to either a retool or a complete rebuild...
And I do not advocate one over the other.
If there are any time for a tear down...
This is it...
Since 2015 is supposed to be the strongest draft in years...
And I do not think all the scouts can be wrong.

A retool is also fine...
Because a successful team needs a mix of veterans and young players...
Or the team will be a bunch of lost sheeps...
Just like the Oilers.
However...
Benning should have gotten more futures...
In the form of high draft picks...
Or top prospects...
And not guys who are in their prime...
Or about to hit their prime.
By the time the top teams decline...
Or the Canucks is finally ready to compete...
In a couple of years...
Those guys he acquired will be at the tail-end of their prime at best...
And at worst...
Just in the midst of their decline.

That is my biggest issue with his moves...
Because I do not think a middle of the road method will work out that well.
Again...
I sincerely hope he is smarter than me...
And he gets the last laugh.
This is one matter I do not mind being completely wrong.

I'm usually a grammar/spelling nazi but I really like the way you write. Like a train of thought...

 

[Bure All Day]

You can't win the lottery by tanking. The only thing you can do is not make the playoffs then have a chance to win the lottery. We likely won't make the playoffs anyway, so we are fine.

You can improve your odds by tanking, please don't act so naive